4
   

Soft tissue in hadrosaur remains

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 08:24 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
Quote:
Bone isn't the most porous stuff in the world but it IS porous and it seems sufficiently obvious to me that even one million years is longer than soft tissue inside bone could last without being petrified.

I don 't mean to get u upset,
and I am not an atheist,
but that is not obvious to me.
I am very happy that the soft tissue was protected n preserved
inside the rock. I am interested in vertebrate paleontology
and I welcome advances in new learning.






gungasnake wrote:
Quote:

For that stuff to be 70M years old it would have to have never rained in Montana or the Dakotas in all that time.

How do u know that?
Woud u say the same thing if it said
70,000,000 years in the Bible ?



Quote:

Ultimately the thing which kills off many if not most of these
seemingly unkillable shibboleths is simple human laughter.
The tale of the emperor who walked down the street butt naked at high noon
is well known.

Truthfully, I don 't see anything funny about it.
I accept it as a fact -- a wonderful fact.
Other than yourself, I don 't know of anyone who finds it implausible.

I am very happy that Mary, a clever paleontologist,
was lucky enuf discover that it is possible
to separate the soft tissue from its encapsulating, protective rock.


`
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 08:50 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
She identified herself as a Catholic.
I did not know that Catholics had problems with those issues.
The American Catholic Church had been at a forefront of adopting Darwinian evolution. The Catholic Chruch has always maintained an INDEX OF PROHIBITED BOOKS, and these had included several scientifci works (with the exception of Charles Darwin).

In the end of the 19th century, several Jesuit scholars (John Zahn is the one that comes to mind) He wrote an argument for theistic evolution as a reasonable alternative to "Special Creation". The book, "Dogma v Evolution" was attacked by the church but not officially put on the index.By the time of Pope Pius Xi and XII, the church had published several conciliatory papers about evolution. Pius XII most recognizable on thois subject was one we had to read in my early days at La Salle College . "Humani Generis" was its name and within "Humani ...", Pius states (FOR THE FIRST TIME IN PRINT I BELIEVE) that "There is no conflict between Biblical Faith and EVolution", since that time (with a noteable blip in the road from a cardinal scholar -- Bishop Schoenbrun) The Church has been probably one of the most vocally supportive churches on the topic of evolution. At LA Salle, (where I first started) we had a program of evolutionary biology, geology, paleo, and isotoe analyses (within the chem department). Most Catholic Universities now have very good departmenst (and entire schools) in these sciences.

As gunga hopes for a day when classes will be evolution-free. Hes dreaming a dream that is based on fraud and hypocrisy, not the scientific method.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 11:09 am
@farmerman,
I fail to see why you get upset - not a single scientist will support the idea dinosaurs lived a few thousand years ago.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 11:39 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
Nobody argues against microevolution.

Why not? I've never understood how creationists can accept evolution on the level of bacteria or viruses but balk at evolution on a larger scale. What's the difference?
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 11:55 am
http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/literature/2009/05/04/collagen_fibres_and_degraded_blood_from_

http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/dn17060/dn17060-3_300.jpg
Multiple hadrosaur red blood "cells" surrounded by white...

Quote:
...The problem is this: all direct measurements of the degeneration of biomolecules suggest timescales of hundreds or thousands of years (depending on environmental conditions). Indirect measurements, based on detecting biomolecules in artefacts of known age, suggest that the upper limit is less than a million years. Yet, the biomolecules detected in dinosaurs are considered to be 80 million years old. Two orders of magnitude justifies considerable skepticism!...

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 12:09 pm
@gungasnake,
From what I can gather gunga the fossil experts are unable to tell how long a lamb chop has been in an accelerated aging oven.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 12:43 pm
@spendius,
Aside from any questions about proving a negative in general the idea of proving that hemoglobin and soft tissue can't last 70M years has obviously never occurred to anybody. Kind of like proving that the sky is generally blue and not green or purple. But you can bet that the guys at the ICR and what not are working on it.....

Most people will find the proposition obvious enough without formal proofs.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 12:47 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
Quote:
http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/literature/2009/05/04/collagen_fibres_and_degraded_blood_from_

http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/dn17060/dn17060-3_300.jpg
Multiple hadrosaur red blood "cells" surrounded by white...

Quote:
...The problem is this: all direct measurements of the degeneration of biomolecules suggest timescales of hundreds or thousands of years (depending on environmental conditions). Indirect measurements, based on detecting biomolecules in artefacts of known age, suggest that the upper limit is less than a million years. Yet, the biomolecules detected in dinosaurs are considered to be 80 million years old. Two orders of magnitude justifies considerable skepticism!...


I think the explanation, is this:
Mary and her assistant were lucky enuf to discover
by serendipity that removing petrified dinosaur bone,
dissolving it with an acid, leaves intact some soft tissue residue.
This is a very, very recent discovery-- a radical new development
qua petrified fossils; accordingly, no one knew much about it.

I saw Mary on TV when she commented wryly that people don 't ofen
go around dissolving precious dinosaur fossils. Our brand new knowledge,
is akin to that of the Wright Bros., who (presumably) coud not
design a flite to Mars. We only now just found out that petrification
can preserve soft tissue like this, sealed inside the rock.

Apparently, this protection inside the rock can extend not only for a few 1000 years,
but for millions of years. So far, there is no counter-evidence to disprove
that petrified fossils' soft tissue can be preserved for millions of years.

Your nested quote hereinabove set forth, failed to address
the issue -- the CRITICAL issue -- of encapsulation within protective petrified stone.

Pointing this out has no bearing upon spiritual matters.





David
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 12:54 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
You might could make such a case if there were no other pieces to the puzzle and assuming it wasn't possible to disprove the idea of soft tissue surviving 70M years under any circumstances and, apparently, most scientists would assume that hemoglobin would disintegrate in less than a million years whether it was encased in anything impervious or not.

But the hell of it is that there actually is a bigger picture which includes Ica stones, Amerind petroglyphs, Amerind oral traditions and an assortment of other things, all of which say that there were leftover dinosaurs walking around just prior to the flood and that the true main age of dinosaurs was a few thousand or a few tens of thousands of years back, and not millions.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 12:58 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
That's all assertion Dave. Do you not realise that?

You shouldn't believe everything you see on TV you know. There are some pretty sharp cookies out there.

One doesn't always feel the need to address oneself to what some Mary said.

What we need is a scientific explanation of the process and not simply the bald statement that it has taken place in now you see it now you don't exegesis.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 01:11 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
Quote:

Aside from any questions about proving a negative in general the idea of proving that hemoglobin and soft tissue can't last 70M years has obviously never occurred to anybody. Kind of like proving that the sky is generally blue and not green or purple. But you can bet that the guys at the ICR and what not are working on it.....

Most people will find the proposition obvious enough without formal proofs.[/b]


It is an unreliable and feeble argument
to allege that something is obvious; what is obvious can be false.
For most of the Earthly existence of our species,
it was obvious that the Sun was in orbit around the Earth,
which was flat, and that heavier than air craft cannot fly.

Several different Congressmen and also a head of the US Patent Office
during the 1800s moved to save money by abolishing the Patent Office
because it was obvious that anything worth inventing had already been invented.

Additionally, I deny that the issue in question is obvious.
In the fullness of good faith, I am tempted to assert that claim in reverse,
but I do not believe that u 'd accept that; accordingly, I will restrain myself.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 02:00 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
Quote:
You might could make such a case if there were no other pieces to the puzzle and assuming it wasn't possible to disprove the idea of soft tissue surviving 70M years under any circumstances and, apparently, most scientists would assume that hemoglobin would disintegrate in less than a million years whether it was encased in anything impervious or not.

Most respectfully: anyone can assume anything,
but assumptions have no probative value.
If I wanna, I can ASSUME that u will show up at my door tomorrow
with a solid gold brick to give me as a present,
but I don 't think the chances of that actually HAPPENING r too good,
regardless of my assumptions.

Quote:
But the hell of it is that there actually is a bigger picture which includes Ica stones, Amerind petroglyphs, Amerind oral traditions and an assortment of other things, all of which say that there were leftover dinosaurs walking around just prior to the flood and that the true main age of dinosaurs was a few thousand or a few tens of thousands of years back, and not millions.

If someone finds an island next week with abundant dinosaurian life
in good health, that will not disprove that the fossils that we 've been
examining exceed 65,000,000 years of age.





David
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 02:13 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
I bet when you wring the wahing out Dave it is bone dry.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 02:25 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
Quote:
That's all assertion Dave.

No; it is not. Added to the assertion,
was a demonstrated replication of the process
whereby the soft tissue was liberated from the rock.




spendius wrote:
Quote:
Do you not realise that?

Yes; I do not realize that.






spendius wrote:
Quote:

You shouldn't believe everything you see on TV you know.

That is true, and I don 't.





spendius wrote:
Quote:

There are some pretty sharp cookies out there.

Yes, but she is just an innocent paleontologist.
She is not selling anything.
Since her discovery, there 's been a lot of slicing n dicing
to get at Dino DNA, replicating her technique.
All scientists know that their experiments or discoveries
will be replicated or falsified by their peers.
She is intelligent enuf to know that she 'd be disgraced
if her colleagues found it impossible to replicate.
I think I saw Jack Horner do it, after she discovered the technique.



spendius wrote:
Quote:

One doesn't always feel the need to address oneself to what some Mary said.

I detect a tone of disrespect for Mary.
I believe that is not appropriate.
She gave us a good gift.



spendius wrote:
Quote:

What we need is a scientific explanation of the process
and not simply the bald statement that it has taken place
in now you see it now you don't exegesis.

She explaned it and she demonstrated it on TV
and obviously allowed such peer review as naturally
woud follow such a discovery, which resulted in
a lot of slicing n dicing of dinosaur fossils.

U use your imagination as to what she might have done incorrectly
and then u ASSUME that she followed your assumptions of poor practice.

Y do u do that ?
What woud u think if someone did that to u ?





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 02:32 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

I bet when you wring the wahing out Dave it is bone dry.

I 've rung bells, but I 've never rung wahing;
I don 't know what that is.





David
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 02:57 pm
@gungasnake,
Quote:
But the hell of it is that there actually is a bigger picture which includes Ica stones, Amerind petroglyphs, Amerind oral traditions and an assortment of other things, all of which say that there were leftover dinosaurs walking around just prior to the flood and that the true main age of dinosaurs was a few thousand or a few tens of thousands of years back, and not millions.


A petroglyph is hardly evidence, and besides , the peroglyph is hardly even a dinosaur.(Weve gone over this ad nauseum and youve failed to close your argument with data)


ICA STONES are fakes and we have several candidates whove fessed up. (Just like the carvings of human footy prints in the Paluxy Shales).

THERE WERE DINOSURS WALKING AROUND BEFORE THE FLOOD>
WHAT FLOOD GUNGA?

He never learns a damn thing.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 04:16 pm
@farmerman,

Well, thay WERE walking around,
and presumably there have been floods during the last 65,000,000 years. So . . . .
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 05:20 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
The problem is that there is NO evidence that there were any worldwide floods of which gunga speaks. We have always had some portion of the planet high and dry. IF gunga can find any credible evidence as to how his "Flood" showed itself, Ill easily take it apart from mere stratigraphy.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 05:30 pm
@High Seas,
Im not upset, this is an exercise in futility and I know it. However, there are others reading this stuff.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 05:41 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
We have always had some portion of the planet high and dry.


I don't believe that. In all that unimaginable time, as Darwin called it, the tectonic shifts must at some point have led to a surface of ocean. Just by chance I mean.
0 Replies
 
 

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