Soft tissue in hadrosaur remains

If I remember accurately, microbial life has been dated back
to around c.3.5 billion years ago. Evolution of fruit flies can be
swift n brief; there is active concern as to how fast the swine flu virus
will mutate and get milder or more severely threatening humans.
Evolution can take a long time or a short time.
Do u deny genetic mutation of viruses? of mammals?
Do u deny extinction of earlier species?

I doubt that belief in evolution implies atheism.
I doubt that most scientists or mathematicians are atheists.

farmerman wrote:

(And, I may get myself ignored by this clown )

You wish. I think you're on his "best buddy" list

I really don’t have much else to say about this one. The only way Brian Thomas’ article makes sense is to completely ignore the non sequiturs " ignore any sense of logical progression from one claim to another, and simply take " on faith " that he’s tied it all together for you.

Next, Brian says something that I agree with: “There is no evidence for the existence of alternate universes, and if a concept cannot be proved or disproved, it is not open to scientific investigation.”

Yes! Thank you! Very true! So keep your religion out of science class!

But there is a lesson in Dover, where Chapman and Meyer said the School Board hijacked intelligent-design terminology for its attempt to bring religion into school. Chapman said Discovery told the board not to attempt to teach intelligent design. Instead, he said, the institute advocates that schools only "teach the controversy" surrounding evolution.

"We're mostly trying to stop people from doing dumb things," Meyer said.

If recent studies confirmed that the Earth is NOT 4.6 billion years old,
but only a few 1,000 years old, then this woud hit the press,
in all of its major organs in a very major way; BIG headlines.

The ICR Graduate School (ICRGS) was formed in 1980-81 in order to provide graduate-level training in science for men and women who wanted post-graduate degrees in science in a Biblical, creationist context. Originally considered the "research division" of Christian Heritage College (established in 1970), ICR became a separate institution in 1981 when the regional accreditation organization would not allow the College to offer graduate degrees. As it is now, ICRGS offers accredited M.S. degrees in four key fields (Astro/Geophysics, Biology, Geology and Science Education), and to date there have been about 82 graduates.

Graduates who write an M.S. thesis are expected to select some topic which will contribute both to their scientific field and also to the advancement of scientific Biblical creationism.

The nonprofit Institute for Creation Research in Dallas wants to train future science teachers in Texas and elsewhere using an online curriculum. A state advisory group gave its approval Friday; now the final say rests with the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board, which will consider the request next month.

A panel of the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board voted today to reject a proposal by a Bible-oriented group to offer a master’s degree in science education.

The unanimous vote by the board’s Academic Excellence and Research Committee came after Higher Education Commissioner Raymund Paredes recommended against the plan submitted by the Dallas-based Institute for Creation Research.

Paredes said the institute’s program is infused with creationism and runs counter to conventions of science that hold that claims of supernatural intervention are not testable and therefore lie outside the realm of science. He also said the institute failed to demonstrate that its proposal for a master’s of science degree in science education met the coordinating board’s standards.

“Religious belief is not science,” Paredes said. “Science and religious belief are surely reconcilable, but they are not the same thing.”

All of the dating schemes which F-man's ilk use involve isotope ratio tests for heavy metals. What's wrong with that??

You wish. I think you're on his "best buddy" list

If recent studies confirmed that the Earth is NOT 4.6 billion years old,
but only a few 1,000 years old, then this woud hit the press,
in all of its major organs in a very major way; BIG headlines.

You're talking about the same libtard American press which refused
to print any news (since ALL of it was bad) about SlicKKK KKKlintler
for eight years and which generally buys into the establishment
science view on natural history and evolution??

Again there are giant problems in the standard ideas about ages
for our planet and solar system. All of the dating schemes which F-man's ilk use
involve isotope ratio tests for heavy metals. What's wrong with that??
That's right, given the standard idea of planets coalescing from
swirling masses of solar material in the form of disks, the heavy
metals should all be at or near the centers of the planets and not
anywhere close to the surfaces where scientists could run tests on them.
Heavy metals which we find near the planets surface likely got here
via some sort of impact or other catastrophic event, possibly
involving Birkeland currents and plasma physics phenomena, and any
sort of an age we get from them may or may not be meaningful to
the heavy metal, but is highly unlikely to indicate anything regarding the age of the planet.

Dave, youre precious.

Gunga has been treated fairly for several years.
Im now in PHASE 2 where, apparent that he has no interest
in anything related to education, Im just acting as if we are now combatants.
AS far as a student, I only had one Creationist student who was quite civil
in the discussion of his beliefs. He ultimately switched to math.
I am quite civil with students, but when they come in defiantly
(and consistently) ignorant, I have no further time to spend because
I usually havefull classes.

To discuss gungas density. see the following quote from his latest post

Quote:

All of the dating schemes which F-man's ilk use involve isotope ratio tests for heavy metals.
What's wrong with that??

Whats wrong with that is the basic premise that he (gunga ) is trying to foist upon you. Its true that radioisotopic analyses uses several heavy (and many non-heavy), but these are all in INCLUSIONS within metamorphic or igneous melt rocks where nuclear "clocks" have been reet by melting or dynamics. We dont have to Drill to the earths core (And wed probably get noting there anyway since most of the mantle and core are semi mobile or even liquid. (Nuclear clock only start running after the elements have cooled and crystallized).
We use a mineral like zircon cause its a common inclusion in igneous rocks and they are easy to find in samples. (We teach a course in radioactive age dating and sampling is a very big deal).

Im sure that, having brought this up, gunga has some hokey source from the ICR to provide a nyah nyah to science, but youmust remembre that none of the ICR stuff has EVER made it into literature that has been peered.

Much of the geologic aging comes from elements like Ar,K,Rb,Sr,Re,Os, Sm ,Nd, of these , only Os and RE are really heavies, and anyway, we sample Re and Os from sulfide minerals that are igneous in origin (I use this technique for ore deposit surveying). ALL the minerals are near the surface and are uincluded withing strat sequences.

U,Th,and Pb are all acquired from ZIRCONS and titanium, monazite deposits. SO gunga is once again all wet and hes wrong but at the top of his voice, that reminds me of the Character that John Ratzenberger used to play in the TV show "Cheers", the know it all mailman.

Gunga accuses me of being a blowhard but, in my own defense, I do this **** every day
(almost-Im trying to retire as we speak).

Ive been happily employed as a geologists and mining economist for about 35 years, and before that I was a chemist in rare earth elements . I get really tired when someone like gunga speaks up, obviously uninfotmed and all hes trying to do is to dispute the age of the earth and to pull on his hypothesis that we were "seeded" by aliens maybe 100000 years ago.
Gunga listens to "Coast to Coast" too much and he actually believes it.

The question is whether good conduct shoud expire.

I have argued the science behind radioisotope dating to gunga more than once. He always starts with some ridiculous proposition (like the "heavy minerals not being at the surface"). Somewhere hes read that and has run it up his flagpole as a working hypothesis. He has no idea of how sampling is done nor is he even sklightly informed about the methodology and calibration (etc).
Like an ignoramus, he immediately starts criticizing a well understood tool based on NO KNOWLEDGE.

Gunga changes his position frequently, he adopts the Biblical view because he believes in the "worldwide Flood" tale. Hes always been modifying his age of the earth beliefs because he flips between being a believer in alien seeding and Full-on Creationism. SO, hes always danceing around a bit. His history herein is only a solid brick wall against evolution and abiogenesis.

I predict that he wont add anything new here. We will probably see another THread about how dinosaurs lived in Minnesota during the 1600's. (All this from an interpretation of a petroglyph on a rock where the Indians used to party and get loaded)

I wonder how thay can deny the existence of evolution
when we have DONE it -- made it happen, ourselves....

"Hey, Daddy-O, you actually believe all that meat, blood, collagen, and blood vessel material they keep finding in those dinosaurs is 70 million years old??"

"Why certainly, only an ignorant, bible-thumping, quadruple chromosome hick redneck WOULDN'T believe an obvious proposition like that!!!"

I wonder how thay can deny the existence of evolution
when we have DONE it -- made it happen, ourselves....

That, breeding dogs into poodles and great danes,
would be induced microevolution. You cannot breed a dog into a cat or a goat.

Nobody argues against microevolution.

In fact you can't even breed dogs into poodles and Danes on a permanent basis and have them remain such other than via continued effort.
If humans were to disappear from the planet this instant, the only dogs left in the world five generations later would be your ordinary little fifty pound wild dog which everything else would revert back to.

In fact, for several decades in the early part of the last century, they tried to induce macroevolution using fruit flies which breed new generations every day or two which, in a decade or so, would amount to more generations of fruit flies than there have ever been humans or anything else resembling humans in the world.

They subjected those flies to everything in the world known to cause mutations, heat, cold, blast, noise, light, darkness, every kind of radation man can produce, electric shock.... and they combined the mutants every way possible.

And, you know what? All they ever got were fruit flies, sterile freaks, and mutants which returned to the norm for fruit flies after two or three generations. That is because our entire living world is driven by information and the only information there ever was in the picture was that for a fruit fly.

No spiders, wasps, hornets, bees, ants, aphids, butterflies, grasshoppers, or anything else were ever produced in those experiments; just fruit flies.

Evolution was put to the test and totally and unambiguously failed it. Several prominent scientists publicly renounced evolution and evoloserism in consequence of those experiments including the famous case of Richard Goldschmidt.

Goldschmidt later claimed that his colleagues, no doubt including several ignorant blowhards like F-man here, were shunning him and subjecting him to something like the two-minute hate seances which Orwell described in 1984.

The problem F-man is going to face is that sooner or later, the kids in these classes he claims to teach are going to ask:

Quote:

"Hey, Daddy-O, you actually believe all that meat, blood, collagen,
and blood vessel material they keep finding in those dinosaurs is 70 million years old??"

And, when F-man replies:

Quote:

"Why certainly, only an ignorant, bible-thumping,
quadruple chromosome hick redneck WOULDN'T believe an obvious proposition like that!!!"

they will suddenly realize what they're dealing with, and get up and walk out.

This is what I see happening to evolution(ism), at least in America. There will shortly come a day on which people like our F-Man here cannot stand in front of a classroom and talk about it without being made to feel as if they were in a Rodney Dangerfield movie;