Einstein's General Relativity

@Chumly,

You are promoting mythology in a thread about science. This is one of my pet peeves (which is why I keep responding). Science deals with well defined terms and concepts that are measurable to come up with ideas that are supported by subjective evidence.

Read the terms in you post; "social equity", "forward-thinking", "high-risk", "stable"-- these terms have no scientific definition (except "stable"... but mathematically speaking the global population growth rate has stabilized and world population at present trends will reach a plateau in a few decades)...

... not a single one of your points has any scientific backing. Particularly egregious are your assertions that fewer people will lead to more "progress" (your term, not DrewDads) and "social equity". If you are going to make such bald statements like this in a science thread, you shouldn't be surprised when you are challenged.

You are promoting religion, not science. (and it is a very depressing religion at that)

1 Reply

There seem to be a number of divergent paths generated by this thread.
Trying to tie these together...IMO
Q1. Has the complexity Einstein's GR affected the take up of physics by students ?
A: Not specifically, but generally it is an example of the required rigour perceived by a student faced with a choice of studying easier subjects.
Q2. Is there evidence of a shift away from physics and the other "hard sciences "?
A: Yes. Here's another report this time from the US.
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/mar2004/tc20040316_0601_tc166.htm
Q3. Does it matter to a society that such a shift is taking place ?
A (a) Yes in competitive terms with respect to other groups.
A(b) Yes if we feel that the take up of "softer options" indicates a decline in societal "well being".
(It is the measurement of such "well being" that chumly and ebrown seem to be concerned with.)

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@fresco,

Quote:

Many experts have resisted the urge to jump on the bleakness bandwagon, however. They say they have seen it circle through their neighborhoods in years past, blaring what turned out to be a false alarm.

In 1986 Erich Bloch, director of the National Science Foundation, warned, "We are not training enough young scientists and engineers." Four years later he wrote, "At the end of the pipeline, too few new Ph.D.'s are being produced, and an increasing fraction -- over 50 percent in engineering and mathematics -- are foreign students." He also noted that "the demand for engineers, scientists, and technicians is growing about twice as fast as supply and will exceed supply by 35 percent in the year 2000."

But it soon became clear that those predictions were about as accurate as long-term weather forecasts. As the 1990s progressed, the lack of science jobs forced increasing numbers of graduate students to continue their training after getting doctorates, sometimes moving from one fellowship to another before landing a more secure position. For example, in 1973 only 27 percent of the people earning biomedical Ph.D.'s went into postdoctoral positions. By 1995 the proportion had jumped to 63 percent.

http://chronicle.com/free/v50/i44/44a01001.htm

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@ebrown p,

I concede that opinion is divided on "shortages", but there seems to be a general consensus that foreign students have tended to make up shortfalls.
http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/17/what-shortage-of-scientists-and-engineers/
If such is the case, there still remain the political issues I outlined in Q3 above.

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@ebrown p,

You’re guilty of starting this by your use of the word “progress”……as such you opened the door to cross examination, not me. Further you presuppose certain value-based considerations in your gambit, again you opened the door to cross examination, not me.

Also to the point, you are not the original poster but a contributor as am I; as such I do not feel an inherent obligation to be bound by your arbitrary set of criteria.

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@fresco,

Fresco,

The US with about 5% of the world population has considerably more than 5% of the advanced technical and scientific jobs (does anyone have any insight as to what percentage of the worlds PhD level posiitons are in the US, my seat of the pants guess would be at least 20%).

As the developing world develops (and part of this development is education), one of two things are going to happen. Either really smart people are going to move to the parts of the world that there are advanced jobs (i.e. the US), or they are going to create jobs in their own countries-- decreasing the need in the US.

That really smart people are moving to the US is no surprise. It is more a factor of the US having more than its share of advanced jobs then of the US having less then its share of educated, smart citizens.

A society can only turn a very small percentage of its citizens into advanced scientists. Few human beings are born with the natural inclination and talent required... and if we are all particle physicists, who is going to fix my car?

This "we don't have enough scientists" hype is largely a myth.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_drain

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@DrewDad,

The number of highly educated skilled workers a country has should be proportional the the number of jobs it has requiring high skills.

If one country has too many jobs, and the other too many highly skilled workers-- well, there are two ways to correct this imbalance.

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@Dileep Sathe,

The work of Einstein is founded in non-Euclidean Geometry. A knowledge of linguistic fundamentals will fell both.

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@NoOne phil,

Name one referee who will substantiate that statement.

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@fresco,

That statement is probably from some of his original work. You can find a link to it on his profile page.
To save you the trouble I can just tell you that this work is obscure. I googled it, and found nothing. If it was work with any relevance it would have been referenced by others working in the same field, etc... And google would have found it.

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@Cyracuz,

Yes...I did peruse it. That was my conclusion too.
Interestingly, geometrical variants have resulted in some interesting philosophical and esoteric areas. "Projective Geometry" for example formed a basis for some of Goethe's ideas, later expanded by Rudolph Steiner and his "Anthroposophy" movement. It seems a pity that our friend's dabblings are constrained by a Euclidean straight jacket.

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@fresco,

Reading about geometry and projective geometry on wiki gives me a sense of what you are talking about. But I am unfamiliar with these things, so I am afraid I cannot expand on your comment. It is clear to me, however, that the applications of geometry these days extend way beyond the measuring of physical space.
From what I gather projective geometry is the introduction of perspective, and I find myself thinking about 3 dimensional, interactive environments artificially constructed in computers. Videogames for instance, where you can move to different locations, and the environment, as it is projected on the surface of the computer screen, will change according to where you move, so that you get the impression of moving within physical space among objects in fixed locations.
But I do not know if this is an example of projective geometry. I am shooting blindfolded, so to speak.

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Name one referee who will substantiate that statement.

I accept your admission that you cannot examine and understand things for yourself.
What school did you go to that taught you to follow opinion instead of principles of reason?

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@Cyracuz,

One of the properties of projective geometry is the preservation of "relationships" under transformations. Points and lines can be symmetrically interchanged within theorems.This is a level of abstraction which transcends the particular shapes studied by Euclid. It captures some of the essence of repetitive "forms" in nature and predates fractals. Goethe was interested in establishing a science of "natural forms" which Steiner interpreted as "spiritual essences". Skipping the religious overtones, it was an attempt to provide a possible mathematics/science of "observation". Exercises in projective geometry are used on Steiner "spirituality" courses to promote "appropriate" modes of thinking.

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@NoOne phil,

Okay. So you've no takers on your Einstein demolition thesis.
Shall we dump that topic and help you" look for a wife" instead ? Wink

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Okay. So you've no takers on your Einstein demolition thesis.
Shall we dump that topic and help you" look for a wife" instead ?

That would be best, she could handle the bs better than I. I have way to many useful things to do. .

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@NoOne phil,

Maybe the reason you haven't found a wife yet is because you havent found one that can handle bs...

Btw, I am still waiting for a reply on the last post I made to you in the thread Truth is choice. Not up to the challenge?

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Maybe the reason you haven't found a wife yet is because you havent found one that can handle bs...

Btw, I am still waiting for a reply on the last post I made to you in the thread Truth is choice. Not up to the challenge?

Have not found one? Are you kidding? I have found 4.
Nope, I am not up to the challenge. However, I can refer you to Jane Goodall.

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@NoOne phil,

No need.
Jane Goodall hasn't claimed my statement was incorrect without backing it up with reasonable arguments. You, on the other hand, have. I chose to see your choice not to answer as an admission that you have nothing of relevance to offer.

1 Reply

Einstein's General Relativity

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