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Mike Gronstal on Gay Marriage

 
 
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2009 10:56 pm


Quote:
Transcript
One of my daughters was in the workplace one day, and her particular workplace at that moment in time, there were a whole bunch of conservative, older men. And those guys were talking about gay marriage. They were talking about discussions going on across the country.

Any my daughter Kate, after listening for about 20 minutes, said to them: You guys dont understand. Youve already lost. My generation doesnt care.

I think I learned something from my daughter that day, when she said that. And Ive talked with other people about it and thats what I see, Senator McKinley. I see a bunch of people that merely want to profess their love for each other, and want state law to recognize that.

Is that so wrong? I dont think thats so wrong. As a matter of fact, last Friday night, I hugged my wife. You know Ive been married for 37 years. I hugged my wife. I felt like our love was just a little more meaningful last Friday night because thousands of other Iowa citizens could hug each other and have the state recognize their love for each other.

No, Senator McKinley, I will not co-sponsor a leadership bill with you.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,827 • Replies: 17
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2009 05:12 am
@Robert Gentel,
What a Mensch!!!

Though, if they've already lost, I wish they'd get over it.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2009 07:27 am
@Robert Gentel,
Thanks for including the transcript!

Good for him.
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2009 07:45 am
@sozobe,
I'd love to think him right, but, honestly, I observe a great deal of homophobia amongst the young.

Is it really lessening?


Be interesting to see some real data about it.

What's encouraging is I see a lot of parents trying to counter the primitive homophobia of their offspring.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2009 07:53 am
@dlowan,
I do think it's getting a lot better.

Here's one poll that shows the generational divide:

Quote:
While 41% Americans under 45 support legalizing gay marriage, only 18% of Americans over 65 agree, and nearly half of seniors do not think there should be any legal recognition of same-sex marriage. Americans between 45 and 64 generally support some form of civil unions between same-sex couples, though only 29% think same-sex couples should marry.


http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/04/03/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4917681.shtml
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2009 08:02 am
@sozobe,
Goddammit!!
I just lost 4 scholarly posts, and I have no desire to write it all agauin.

dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2009 08:13 am
@dlowan,
But here's some other stuff:

Quote:
Antigay Behaviors Among Young Adults
Prevalence, Patterns, and Motivators in a Noncriminal Population
KAREN FRANKLIN

Private Practice, El Cerrito, California

This is the first empirical research into prevalence rates of and motivations for antigay harassment and violence by noncriminal young adults. In an anonymous survey of 484 young adults, 1 in 10 admitted physical violence or threats against presumed homosexuals, and another 24% acknowledged name-calling. Factor analyses revealed four motivational themes: peer dynamics, antigay ideology, thrill-seeking, and perceived self-defense. Compared with nonassailants, assailants held more negative attitudes toward homosexuals and reported more negative social norms among their friends. Assailants also had higher levels of masculinity ideology and social drinking. The findings suggest that many young adults believe antigay harassment and violence is socially acceptable, particularly in response to inferred sexual innuendos or gender norms violations. Because antigay behaviors are culturally normative and usually go unreported, educational outreach to adolescents and preadolescents is likely to be a more effective prevention strategy than criminal prosecutions under special hate crimes laws.


http://jiv.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/15/4/339



This is interesting:


http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/poll_040309.pdf


Interesting for Americans:
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/04/03/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4917681.shtml
Quote:
April 3, 2009 4:19 PM
Poll: Americans Divided On Gay Marriage




(CBS/AP)
As the Iowa Supreme Court overturns a ban on same-sex marriage, Americans overall remain divided on the issue, a newly released CBS News poll finds.

Although six in 10 Americans think some form of legal recognition is appropriate for same-sex couples, only a third of Americans think those couples should be allowed to marry.

Another 27 percent of Americans support civil unions for same-sex couples, while 35 percent thinks there should be no legal recognition of same-sex relationships at all.

Americans are somewhat more supporting of gay marriage or civil unions than they were in 2004. Then just 22 percent supported gay marriage and 40 percent said there should be no legal recognition of same-sex relationships.
Read The Complete Poll
Support for legalizing same-sex marriage has remained about the same for the past two years.

How Americans feel about the issue of same-sex marriage varies greatly upon their age, gender, political affiliations, and the regions of the country from where they live.

While 41 percent Americans under 45 support legalizing gay marriage, only 18 percent of Americans over 65 agree, and nearly half of seniors do not think there should be any legal recognition of same-sex marriage.

Americans between 45 and 64 generally support some form of civil unions between same-sex couples, though only 29 percent think same-sex couples should marry.

Women (38 percent) are more likely than men (27 percent) to support same-sex marriage, by a margin of 11 percentage points.

Republicans, conservatives, and white evangelicals oppose any legal recognition of same-sex couples, while Democrats and liberals are more likely to support same-sex marriage.

Regionally, same-sex marriage is most popular in the Northeast (44 percent support) - where Massachusetts and Connecticut have already established same-sex marriage as legal " and it is popular in the West (38 percent support). Same-sex marriage is far less popular in the Midwest (30 percent) and the South (25 percent).




http://www.springerlink.com/content/k31480421370506m/


Quote:
E. Glenn Schellenberg, Jessie Hirt and Alan Sears

Abstract We examined attitudes toward homosexuals amonga broad selection of undergraduates (101 men, 98 women)attending a Canadian university, where a vast majorityof the students are from working- or middle-class families of European descent. Attitudes towardgay men were more negative than attitudes towardlesbians. Compared to Science or Business students,students in the faculties of Arts or Social Science had more positive attitudes toward gay men, andwomen were more positive than men. Attitudes toward gaymen also improved with time spent at college, but onlyfor male students. Although attitudes toward lesbians improved with time at college, they were notassociated with students'' gender or faculty ofenrollment. Thus, a college education may promote a reduction in anti-homosexual prejudice among young people, particularly among young men.




(Why are men less threatened by lesbianism than male homosexuality? )


Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_attitudes_toward_homosexuality



Still searching
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2009 08:21 am
@dlowan,
I have no doubt that there is still considerable anti-gay sentiment out there -- but I think it's getting better.

Obviously Ms. Gronstal (the daughter in the anecdote) can't actually speak for everyone her age, but I do think that younger Americans are much more likely to be pro-gay-marriage (or at least anti-anti-gay marriage -- "we don't care" isn't necessarily pro per se) than older Americans.

The CBS poll is the one I cited, above.

As for men being less threatened by lesbians than gay men, that does make sense to me -- lesbians just mess with each other and look sexy, while a big strong gay man in a dark alley could be a real threat. (Not saying this is valid btw, just I get how one would be threatening while the other isn't.)
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2009 08:30 am
@dlowan,
Interesting for Australians:

https://www.tai.org.au/file.php?file=WP79.pdf

The religious:

http://www.notsostraight.com.au/faq/about-religion.php


For everyone:

http://www.international-survey.org/A_Soc_M/Homosex_ASM_v4_n1.pdf


Australians again:

Quote:
Résumé / Abstract
This paper seeks to import a more complex understanding of gendered subjectivity into discussions of young people and homosexuality, and is based on an Australian national survey (n=749) of same-sex attracted youth (SSAY) aged between 14 and 21. Results revealed significant gender differences with regard to patterns of sexual attraction, behaviour and identity labels among participants. For the young men in the study, there was more congruence between feelings of gender a-typicality, same-sex attractions and same-sex behaviours. Overall, young women displayed more fluidity with regard to their sexual feelings, behaviours and identities. Young women were more likely to be engaged in private explorations of lesbianism, concurrent with participation in heterosexual sex and relationships. Young women were also grappling with more limited and emotionally risky opportunities for sex with other girls who were already known to them as friends. The invisibility of lesbianism as an identity or practice led to confusion about what feelings meant for the future in the arena of lived experience. The paper concludes that more research is needed into the impact of gender on the development of young people's experiences of homosexuality, particularly the manner in which invisibility and lack of social acceptance of a full spectrum of sexual diversity may disadvantage young women's emotional health and well-being.


http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=937145

http://72.14.235.132/search?q=cache:wHERdmcwdwUJ:www.med.uio.no/ipsy/ssff/english/articles/prevention/Friis.pdf+attitudes+to+homosexuality+amongst+young+people&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=opera

Australia again:

http://www.aare.edu.au/02pap/gil02454.htm

http://www.acys.info/youth_facts_and_stats/design_extras/focus/gaylesbianbisexualtransgender_youth


(Sorry, this really interests me and I am kind of storing stuff here to look at later)

Americans:

http://www.aei.org/docLib/20050520_HOMOSEXUALITY0520.pdf


Be interesting to look at Europe and Latin America.

I had a young male friend from Latin America once, and his badinage with peers was relentlessly and nauseatingly about who was more homosexual (and hence inferior...it appeared to some kind of bizarre ritualistic behaviour...lord knows what it means...but it was sickening to someone from a different culture, but I gather bog normal there. At leasr amongts young males?)
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2009 08:39 am
@dlowan,
I'm interested in this too! It's something I've noticed and have been impressed by, but I'm not sure I'll be able to come up with many examples (and they're all anecdotal anyway).

One weird one that comes to mind is that a main character in "High School Musical" -- the original, blockbuster, every-kid's-seen it Disney movie -- is gay, and it's not presented as a bad thing really, nor particularly notable. He starts out as a villain but becomes one of the good guys at the end (as the whole cast sings "We're all in this together" and various couples pair off -- he shyly and sweetly gives some cookies to the [male] object of his affections).

I've only seen the first of the three movies and it's possible that they backtrack later, but that first movie was huge and that was kind of a wow moment for me. (Given that it was made by Disney and that the demographic was so young, 5-16 or so.)

But most of what I'm thinking of is what I've seen IRL, on Facebook, that sort of thing -- kids who are much more accepting of the fact that some people are gay and of being experimental, themselves, without that being a big deal.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2009 08:43 am
@sozobe,
Heh, was just seeing what I could find about the HSM thing, found this:

Quote:
And it’s not like the young audience to whom the HSM franchise is aimed doesn’t read between the lines. After AfterElton.com ran an interview with Simpatico and officially “outed” Ryan, one teen blogger linked to the story under the headline, “BREAKING NEWS! Ryan Evans is Gay! Also the Sun is Hot and the Sky is Blue!”
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2009 10:47 am
@sozobe,
Lol!!!


Well, I sincerely hope it is true and generally so.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2009 11:31 am
Schools nationwide can participate in an annual "Day of Silence" which brings attention to the struggle of young people who are unable (due to public stigma) to be open about their sexuality. Our local HS has participated for years. When M was in 8th grade she told her middle school principal that she wanted to organize a Day of Silence in her school. M was familiar with it because her sister had participated the previous year at the high school. The principal was enthusiastic in his support, thought it was a GREAT idea, said his sister is gay, he'd help her in any way he could, called me at home and told me what a great kid M is....

A week later the school board nixed it and said that middle school kids are too young to hear about it. This is the same school district that teaches a cursory human sexuality unit to 5th graders (elementary school). M was told by the assistant principal she couldn't openly recruit participants during school time or on school property. She planned the entire thing outside of school, limiting it to 8th graders. She bought bracelets for those who said they wouldn't do the day of silence but would support her cause by wearing the bracelet that day, etc. She had conversations with numerous classmates who thought the whole thing was "icky", signed up dozens of supporters, handed out over 50 bracelets, and was mostly happy with the number of kids she talked to who got over the "icky" mentality.

A couple years ago a local church group pulled in a national group to draw attention to the corrupt morality of the local high school. It was a big to-do to everyone except the kids.

This year's Day of Silence is on April 17th.

http://www.dayofsilence.org/index.cfm
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2009 08:19 pm
@sozobe,
I am looking at this

http://www.aei.org/docLib/20050520_HOMOSEXUALITY0520.pdf

document, which has a table looking at attitudes between 1973 and 2002, broken up by many factors, including: age, gender, race, education, church attendance, region, party, ideology and income. (It's near the beginning of a longish paper...I can't copy it)


It IS seeing a correlation between younger age and acceptance of homosexual relations...but as of 2002, it says that 48% of people between 18 and 29 still hold homosexual relations as "always wrong". (Down from 56% in 1973)

Expected variables like education, ideology have a predictable effect (more tolerance..)..as do gender and race. Race kind of surpried me. (It says black people are more intolerant)




0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2009 08:26 pm
@sozobe,
Re HSM (took me ages to see what that was!!!).

I would love to see some research on how soapie/film characters affect kids' attitudes.

Anecdote: When I was doing my prac teaching, my first weeks were at a tech high school...this was a high school for kids who did poorly academically, and wanted to aim at practical jobs, so they had less maths and english and more tech studies and such.

These kids were, en masse, racist, highly conservative (reflecting parental attitudes) and suchlike.

I was teaching English, and somehow (probably through Shakespeare's sonnets?) we would end up talking about homosexuality.

To my amazement, these kids were cool with it! Amongst their normal attitudes, this stuck out like dogs' balls.

I discovered they all watched a soapie, popular at the time, whose most attractive male played a gay guy. Thay all thought him hot, so they were fine with gayness!

dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2009 08:54 pm
@dlowan,
Info from Oz 2005:

https://www.tai.org.au/file.php?file=WP79.pdf


35% of population above 14 believes homosexuality is immoral.

Older Australians more homophobic, except that people from 14 to 17, again especially males, likely to be more homophobic than young and middle-aged adults.

I do wonder if this means homophobia will rise again in Oz, or if kids that age are dealing with sexual identity, and have a strong desire to fit in with the herd, and will loosen up as they mature?

If you're a gay kid, you better live in the middle of a major city, if you live in Oz...that paper suggests lots of nasty stuff being done by other kids to gay kids....which, as with other bullying and exclusion, can have a profound effect.


0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 06:46 am
@dlowan,
I'd love to see that research too -- I'm pretty confident that it has a real effect.

It'd be nice if this character in HSM was explicitly out (evidently he is in the touring stage production, and Disney's allowed it!) but it's also kind of nice that it's just background, not a Big Deal. And he's not wimpy, he's a good baseball player and a strong dancer/ singer, he just REALLY loves show tunes...

I'm definitely not making the case that no prejudice exists btw, it so does -- I just have the impression that it's lessening over time.

Good point about teenage years maybe being an outlier in the general trends because of issues of figuring out sexual identity, etc. As in, a 15-year-old who thinks homosexuality is really, really icky may mature into a 25-year-old who doesn't care one way or another -- while a 65-year-old is more likely to remain anti-gay-marriage at age 75.
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 06:10 pm
@sozobe,
The other thing that really concerns me is this ongoing use of "gay" as a fit-all pejorative.

This happens, here at least, from the earliest school days.
0 Replies
 
 

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