STINGS ARE ENTRAPMENT

@hawkeye10,

agreed. SWo the story, in my mind, is the ability of the state to prove that IT WAS NOT trolling , or phishing and employing extra aggressive means of securing targets .

Like edgar said, it is kind of unbelievable how many "young women " are out there attempting to hook up by luring older men into their traps. Ill bet that, there are police departments that are connected to certain sites that invite outside comment or communication.

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@CalamityJane,

CalamityJane wrote:

and I highly doubt than underage girls are THIS explicit and suggestive.

A young woman was recently convicted of murder here in Toronto. Part of the evidence was 30,000 pages of text messaging between her and her then boyfriend as she encouraged him to murder a younger girl. Part of the messaging was very explicit descriptions by her of what would/would not be happening sexually if he did/didn't murder the young girl. The young woman recently convicted was 14 and 15 at the time of the texting/murder.

I think it's dangerous to ignore how very sexual underage women can be. They often have a sense of the interest older men have in them and attempt to take advantage of that. Because of their level of maturity/immaturity they often may not understand the ramifications of what they are saying/doing - but they do know what they are saying/doing. They are explicit, they are suggestive.

A hundred years ago, many of our great-grandmothers were getting married at 14/15/16. Some were innocent, many were not. Some of them had already started their families by the time they married.

I think it is naive to think that underage women now are any less knowledgeable about/interested in sex. Referring to them as girls doesn't mean they are girls.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

Quote:

I think it is naive to think that underage women now are any less knowledgeable about/interested in sex. Referring to them as girls doesn't mean they are girls.

Science says that the lowering of the age of menses is proof the females are maturing earlier than they once did. At one time we married girls off at the age of 12....you do the math.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Well, I'll agree that they're maturing earlier physically. I'm not at all convinced that they're maturing earlier psychologically or emotionally. There's a notable mismatch out there.

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@ehBeth,

This has nothing to do with biology. This is an issue about the contrived entrapment of men who commit an erzats crime of statutory rape by possible entrapment. BTW, Ive been reading one of Ticos citations and was somewhat amazed at how an individual, once caught by an admitted sting , is now required to prove that this sting was NOT entrapment. WHAAAA?.

Seems to me that the prosecution will , by whatever means they can conjure, seek to make this burden of proof NOT go well for the defense.

The world has done turned upside down if thats the case.

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@farmerman,

If an adult (prominent citizen or otherwise) is stupid enough to think that contemporary American society is not going to whack them upside the figurative head for meeting an underage person for the purpose of having sex, then they deserve what they get - however they get it.

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@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

Can you provide a link to to those excerpts?

Even without reading them, I'd have to respectfully disagree there cj.

Nothing would surprise me about the sexuality of a 13 year old, and what they would do/say as far as being explicit and suggestive.

They might get frightened at the last moment, if they were actually with someone, but that not the point.

I did mention that is was seen on several TV shows I had seen, so no I cannot
produce a link of the excerpts. I am sure if you google you'd find something.

Actually, since my daughter is 13 years old, I am around a lot of girls that
age, and they might be coquette in their own little naive ways, but they
certainly haven't the knowledge to use such suggestive language as was
given and seen at those shows.

Now having said that, you might know teens who are this explicit, I just
don't!

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You know them cj.

they just don't act that way in front of you.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

Quote:

If an adult (prominent citizen or otherwise) is stupid enough to think that contemporary American society is not going to whack them upside the figurative head for meeting an underage person for the purpose of having sex, then they deserve what they get - however they get it

Let's assume for the sake of argument that this evil is so bad that it warrants sacrificing our constitutional protection of the individual against the mob....is there an other crimes that are also worthy? Maybe our kids will have a list of fifty, if we have not taught them that the constitution is worth honoring and protecting were will we be then? What about them? Are they going to be convinced by powers that don't have their best interests at heart to give up their rights to free speech, or maybe their right to pursue a lifestyle that they want? You are fine with that result right, because that is the thinking that you are modeling for your ids and mine.

At some point in our lives we all need to figure out where we personally draw the line in the sand, decide where we stop pursuing ends with means that subvert everything that we claim that we believe in.

1 Reply

@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

You know them cj.

they just don't act that way in front of you.

word

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

Again, thats not the point of my Thread. Im questioning METHODS. Of course the guy is stupid and is a potential criminal (if he acts on his urges). However, how he got there by possibly unconstitutional means is the core of my question.

If the cops portray themselves as 14 year olds, and actively troll the websites and actively chum for these guys , then arent you a bit concerned about our entire legal system?
Several U colleagues are on Facebook (I am not for circumstances other than personal privacy), and, like Edgar stated, they often kid about getting baited by what appear to be teenage girls seeking something , which,missing in their lives, may be supplied by hooking up with a college prof (this is quite common). Colleagues feel that, from the langiage used, these teenage girls are probably 40 year old guys out phishing.

Maybe Im just too cynical from my years overseas so that Im under a slight personal conviction that there are many law enforcement and fire department members out there who are just a few brain cells separated from what they purport to protect the rest of us from.

3 Replies

@ehBeth,

Nonetheless the role of adults is to support young people in the throes of their first major hormone surges, not to **** them.

Really, this stuff sounds just like what rapists/abusers say.

1 Reply

This is like keeping frogs in a wheelbarrow.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Or herding cats.

Look...I am not sure if people can really comment on your point, because you keep saying that these cops are actively seeking sex from men.

I have never seen such a thing, but I live in another country...what I have seen is cops acting like kids and responding to overtures from adult men.

That is, they behave like kids and get approached, just like real kids do. And believe me they do.

Therefore, from my perspective, you're talking nonsense.

Do you think THAT is entrapment?

As for the rest, I would like to see some evidence of what you describe.

2 Replies

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

... BTW, Ive been reading one of Ticos citations and was somewhat amazed at how an individual, once caught by an admitted sting , is now required to prove that this sting was NOT entrapment. WHAAAA?.

Huh? Which case did you read?

Entrapment is a defense that can be raised by the defendant. The burden is on the defendant to prove the entrapment.

1 Reply

@dlowan,

Quote:

SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA - A month ago, Dateline launched its third investigation into a growing national epidemic"grown men trolling the Internet, many looking for sex with children. This time, to expose them, we set up multiple hidden cameras in a house in Southern California.

A decoy coaxes the men in, but instead of finding a 12- or 13-year-old home alone, the men looking for sex will meet me.

Here’s an example of the kind of confrontation we’re in for: A 37-year-old, Kurt Lemke, a truck driver, calls himself “haloballfan” online. He thinks he’s here to meet a 13-year-old boy named Dave, but we really send him a decoy photo. During his chat, he makes plans to give the boy oral sex.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11152602/

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@dlowan,

Quote:

Look...I am not sure if people can really comment on your point, because you keep saying that these cops are actively seeking sex from men

Im sorry, The danger of the printed word is one of nuance missed (or taken). I didnt mean men securing sex from men, but men (cops) portraying themselves as underaged teenage girls who are actively engaging in phishing for adult men to "hook up" with. I am questioning the legality and constitutionality of preemptive law enforcement where the accused is coerced by the sting agent to take part in a tryst with the supposed teenager.
On top of that, once the "guilty" party is arrested, he is required by law (cf Ticos clips from PA ) to prove (civil statute burden of proof) that the cops were engaged in an entrapment. Hown the hell does one do that with the charges pending. HEs screwed from both sides of the case.
I think the courst should be required to tell the cops that the burden of proof is first on them to prove conclusively that they were not running an entrapment scam.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Let's assume for the sake of argument that this evil is so bad that it warrants sacrificing our constitutional protection of the individual against the mob....is there an other crimes that are also worthy? Maybe our kids will have a list of fifty, if we have not taught them that the constitution is worth honoring and protecting were will we be then? What about them? Are they going to be convinced by powers that don't have their best interests at heart to give up their rights to free speech, or maybe their right to pursue a lifestyle that they want? You are fine with that result right, because that is the thinking that you are modeling for your ids and mine.

Is there a Constitutional right to have sex with underage children I'm not aware of?

1 Reply

@Ticomaya,

Quote:

The burden is on the defendant to prove the entrapment

It appears to me that the first step in that proposal is to agree that the defendant was actually caught in a sex sting. The issue of guilt has been given a big shot for the prosecution by the defendant doing so. Cant the entire thing be bifurcated so that the issue of entrapment is handled without prejudice to the defendant??

Secondly, what cop is gonna cooperate with a defendant to prove entrapment against the cops?

Not changing thye subject but, when I left home mid week, the Regional police had indicted a major suspect in a series of (30) separate arson events in a small town in Chester County Pa. THE SUSPECT WAS THE EX FIRE CHIEF.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

If the cops portray themselves as 14 year olds, and actively troll the websites and actively chum for these guys , then arent you a bit concerned about our entire legal system?

Let me give you a hypothetical to gauge your reaction:

If the Law Enforcement instead sent an underage kid into a convenience store to purchase beer, and the cashier sold beer to him without checking his drivers license, thus violating the law, is that entrapment in your view?

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STINGS ARE ENTRAPMENT

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