Eliminate negative voting

Ever since this site's been open I've been hearing from writers about how if people would just appreciate their work more, and give them more responses their creative juices would positively flow forth.

So I take it with a grain of salt when complaints of how not enough responses to their work on a2k is the big problem for writers here morph into not enough upvotes being the problem for writers here. When The Raven's Realm turned into fluencynow (which later turned into able2know) I saw the same complaints, how the new venue wasn't as receptive to tentative writers, who preferred the more cozy Realm of closer friends and more generous critics.

I even used to try to find a way to praise the writing (and seriously, it's mostly god-awful so that was a struggle) and try to make writers feel more welcome. But I've since come to grips with the fact that writers are often not going to be satisfied with their writing's reception.

I think the essential problem remains the same, that despite insistence to the contrary writers naturally want to see their writing read more widely than it is. I can understand that, but that's not an itch I can scratch to their satisfaction. At the core is the simple issue that writers want more positive reception to their works, and voting is just a mechanism for individuals to express an opinion, the underlying opinion, and underlying problem to the writers, is not going to go away with or without the rating system. Removing the system isn't going to give anyone instant acclaim and that's about all I can imagine would do away with the inherent insecurities of the process of writing and putting your work out there.

Look, I know how hard it can be to write and put it out there for others to read. And I've heard you say it a bunch of times already Letty, I know you don't like the ratings system and I do understand why you say so, but it's not going away. We need to give the members a way they can manage their own experiences here because we aren't made of cash to be burning on an army of moderators.

But we are working on ways to make it more useful, but at it's core it's an expression of other individuals, and I really don't expect that I can every make all people happy with all individual expression on this site.

Sometimes I have to learn to disagree. People won't always like what I like. I get over it. Much of what I'm deeply interested in discussing is unpopular here as well, like anything too technical (e.g. programming discussion) and that's the way the cookie crumbles.

We have plans to provide different groups and different formats (like blog format) here that might eventually better serve your writing. A smaller group of writers, or a blog that doesn't follow thread format might be something you find more welcoming.

But on the general topics, voting is here to stay, despite it's deficiencies it's a critical tool for letting the community take care of itself, and the community's ability to do so is important to its viability and ability to grow.

It has nothing to do with responses, honey; it has to do with negative feedback without explanation. You and I both love poetry or you would never have created the Realm.

Well I already know that what I would prefer is not what Robert or the majority here prefers, so I'll live with it.

If there ever should be a decision for changes while allowing members to manage their own experience, however, I would opt for both the vote up or down AND ignore features for both threads and members.

When I (rarely) put some numbnut on ignore for my own peace of mind and enjoyment of the thread, it affects nobody else but me. Nobody, not even the ignored member, has to know of that action. And when I choose to undo it, I just go to the 'ignored' list and unignore the member.

I would very much appreciate the opportunity to do the same thing with threads. Instead of having to vote something down to remove it from view--and where it will be removed from view forever--I would love the option of simply 'ignoring' it--an action nobody else would need to know was taken and which would not need to diminish the value of a perfectly good thread. And later, when I reviewed that list, I could find and unignore it if I chose to do so.

There would still be the thumbs down option if a thread (or member) was unacceptably offensive. And of course thumbs up to indicate an 'attaboy'.

That would make this site heaven for me.

Just a suggestion for future reference if you do decide to make some changes.

I do love poetry, and I get that. But well, I've said what I can say about this subject. I can't even find any of your poetry threads that are voted down so I really don't think it's a legitimate impediment to your writing.

No A2Kers are going to lose $5000 from missing a piece of poetry.....

And no a2kers are going to miss your thread because of the ratings system. The ratings system did absolutely nothing to make your thread less visible.

not to mention that you are suggesting that an entire field is contaminated by a few players.

I have friends who make a good honest living from the market you are condemning...

And boy, some of the poetry on The Raven's Realm was baaaaad. (Same on Diva's MSN site, Les Anarchistes Artistiques.) If negative votes suppress more poetry of such Vogonic horribleness, put me down as an enthusiastic supporter of negative votes.

Just because poetry mentions death, sunrise , and loneliness, doesnt automatically mean its any good.

Am i the only one who sees six votes for this pathetic excuse for a thread? Just what, precisely, is the bitch here?

Personally, i never miss an opportunity to put a dismissive or ridiculing tag on any thread which i feel deserves it--but i don't "vote" for or against threads. Given the number of views versus the votes, i suspect that most people other people don't "vote" for or against threads, either.

Right on Letty ...... a 'negative' vote of any degree, 0.1 to 200 is still a negative. It is not right to have the power to tell a person that what they feel sucks .... and for no stated reason .... from behind a mask. Why can't we peons have the ability to vote on the moderators under the same circumstances?

But should you assume that a negative vote is equivalent to a statement saying that the thread sucks? Sometimes a negative vote is simply an attempt to remove from sight a thread to which the voter has nothing helpful to contribute.

That's why 99% of the threads that are voted down are voted down--to get them out of the way so that we have a fighting chance to see items that are of interest to us on the 'new posts' thread. But unfortunately, voting down a thread because we disapprove of the title or content has exactly the same effect and there is no way to know why the thread was voted down.

That's why I would prefer to use the thumbs down and thumbs up as a means of expressing genuine approval or disapproval whether it be a thread or a specific post. Otherwise I would prefer having a means to ignore a thread of little or no interest with the ability to restore it later if I should choose to do so, and for that to be done without adding another minus to a perfectly good thread.

So I just keep expressing my preference in case our terrific board gods decide to make some changes regarding that on down the line.

Fox, I thought I gave you that idea when I told you a while ago that we were planning this, which you said was great and all. Repeating it back to us isn't going to make it any more likely.

But if what Robert Gentel says is true, then that "effect" isn't much of an effect at all. If I vote something down to remove it from sight, I get what I want. But it does not necessarily disappear from sight for anyone else, so they get what they want. Everyone wins. The thread to which Gungasnake is referring, for example, has been in plain sight for me all along.

This is true and is understood by probably most members by now. I understand it.

I just hate to see a perfectly good thread reduced to zero because a number of members aren't interested in it. That has to affect the presumed value of a thread to newbies who don't yet understand the voting system. So if Letty's thread, for instance, has a 3 or 4 or 5 number on it, it could likely attract more interest than sitting there with a zero.

And even if we do understand it, I think there is a psychological component. I know I am far more likely to at least peek in on a thread that has a numerical value, especially if it is growing, than I am to peek in on a thread showing a zero.

But that's just me. I am one voice and I know I am probably in a distinct minority here.

I wonder how much of the psychological effect could be solved if the thumbs-up and thumbs-down icons were simply changed to something else? Some other illustration that does not necessarily convey approval and disapproval? I have no idea what that would be, though.

I dunno. I like the ability to vote approval for a comment without having to just be a member of the 'amen' chorus or the toady hopping up and down exclaiming 'me too' 'me too'. And some comments are too hateful or stupid to waste time commenting on but those it is emotionally satisfying to vote disapproval

The downside of that is that some members given to hateful behavior will automatically vote down another members' comments no matter WHAT those comments are. I'm pretty sure that we've lost some active members over that very thing--some I wasn't really sorry to see go and some I miss.

So I guess I'm more in favor of ignore buttons for both threads and members--both allowing capability to unignore--than I am in the ability to punish somebody just because we don't like them or what they say.

You were right ..... they took my 1 away. boogers

I love how Craven says out of one side of his mouth that he does not have many moderators so the community needs to police itself so voting is not going away......then he says out of the other that those with low popularity numbers have nothing to bitch about because the low number does not matter.

He can't have it both ways, a little honesty would be refreshing. The numbers do matter, and will matter more over time. Craven can insist till dooms day that numbers don't matter but anyone with an IQ greater than Britney Spears knows that if numbers did not matter then the entire "new a2k" scheme can't work. Votes (popularity) IS the strainer through which all of the content is sifted.