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Israeli election - 2009

 
 
genoves
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2009 01:31 am
@Robert Gentel,
But, Robet Gentel, it is highly likely that Benjamin Netanyahu can gather more support that Livni. The left wing Socialists have lost heavily. Lieberman's group has gained. The numbers show that Peres must appoint Nethanyahu. Nethanyahu will not allow the Palestinians to hurl missles against Israel. He will make them pay tenfold.

Of course, the world's most charismatic,most powerful and most intelligent man can sit down with Nethanyahu to convince him to play nice with Hamas.

Nethanyahu will probably end up giving Obama what is known throughout Washington, DC as the Rahm Emanuel salute!!
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2009 01:37 am
@genoves,
Quote:
Nethanyahu will probably end up giving Obama what is known throughout Washington, DC as the Rahm Emanuel salute!!


genoves

Could you explain, to those of us who are not in the know, what a "Rahm Emanuel salute" actually means?
genoves
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2009 02:01 am
@msolga,
Yes. certainly, it is a gesture using the middle finger of the hand while folding down the other fingers. Emanuel has made this gesture respectable. You must remember that he is the President's cheif of staff.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2009 02:06 am
@genoves,
Well, I'm not American, so I'm rather in the dark about Emanuel ...

You're suggesting that Israel should give Obama & the new administration the finger?

Do you honestly think that Israel is in any position to do that? My understanding is that Israel is highly reliant on US support.
genoves
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2009 02:10 am
@msolga,
You are correct.Israel is highly reliant on US support.It was high ly reliant they ombed the nuclear facility in Syria. It was also highly reliant when they went into Gaza to decimate Hamas.

Bibi Nethanyahu is a man of the "right". He also believes strongly in the adage-

NEVER AGAIN!!! The fundamentalist Arabs should understand that. There is room for a peace agreement but only one which is fair to both sides!
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2009 02:11 am
@genoves,
genoves wrote:
Nethanyahu will not allow the Palestinians to hurl missles against Israel. He will make them pay tenfold.


That's been Israel's strategy for much of her existence and it hasn't brought them security. They already have had a stated policy of disproportionate responses without him so it's not like that's something new he's going to bring to the table.

Israel threatens 'disproportionate' response to new Gaza rocket attacks

Quote:
The government's position, Olmert said, is that "if there is shooting at residents of the south there will be an Israeli response that will be harsh and disproportionate by its nature to the shooting at residents of Israel and at our forces."
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2009 02:31 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
Do you honestly think that Israel is in any position to do that? My understanding is that Israel is highly reliant on US support.


They are, but they can still afford to give the US the finger time and time again because US politicians won't risk political capital to be seen as anything other than a "strong friend of Israel".

Just weeks ago Olmert was bragging about telling Bush to make Rice abstain in the UN:

Quote:
"In the night between Thursday and Friday, when the secretary of state wanted to lead the vote on a ceasefire at the Security Council, we did not want her to vote in favour," Olmert said.

"I said 'get me President Bush on the phone'. They said he was in the middle of giving a speech in Philadelphia. I said I didn't care. 'I need to talk to him now'. He got off the podium and spoke to me.

"I told him the United States could not vote in favour. It cannot vote in favour of such a resolution. He immediately called the secretary of state and told her not to vote in favour."

"She was left pretty embarrassed."


Quotes of the speech compiled from separate articles here and here.

This is very rare form at this diplomatic level, and it prompted the terse response from a State Department official that "The government of Israel does not make US policy," but this is only partly true.

The Israeli lobby is powerful enough in American politics that Obama made sure to stop by and pledge allegiance while campaigning for president. The bottom line is that there's significant political risk to bucking the pro-Israel lobby in the US. You hear a lot of conspiracy theories about how Jews control everything and they are silly, but the truth is that their lobby in the US is one of the strongest of any lobby, and that of the Palestinians is almost non-existent, so there's no political capital to be gained by being the friend of Palestinians and lots to lose.

There's a reason American presidents tend to try to push for peace only in their second terms. When it has happened in the first term there was no second term.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2009 02:35 am
Genoves

Another quote from an article I posted earlier today. It appears hawks can sometimes act in in pragmatic, out of character ways! Depending on what presure is exerted on them behind the scene, perhaps? You never know what might happen, which-ever party wins leadership.:


Quote:
Yet despite the criticisms of Netanyahu then, he too flashed a pragmatic streak.

Netanyahu pledged never to even talk to then Palestine Liberation Organisation chairman Yasser Arafat, but ended up signing what was considered at the time to be a major agreement with Arafat at Wye River in 1998.

Given the complexity and diversity of opinion that exists across the Israeli political spectrum, another Netanyahu-led coalition may yet have the capacity to surprise.


http://www.theage.com.au/world/country-pulling-in-all-directions-awaits-leader-20090213-875b.html?page=-1
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2009 03:53 am
@Robert Gentel,
How did the Israel lobby get to be so strong?

Is it holocaust guilt, do yu think, or does it reflect the strength of numbers of Jewiah folk in the US? (Not that all jews are zionists).
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2009 12:03 pm
@dlowan,
dlowan wrote:
Is it holocaust guilt, do yu think, or does it reflect the strength of numbers of Jewiah folk in the US? (Not that all jews are zionists).


It's not just driven by Jews. Fundamentalist Christian groups also support their lobbying because they believe that the Bible says that Israel is their land and that they need to have control over it for Jesus to return.

If you want more on the history of this here is a very good, albeit long, article from the Washington Post on the subject:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/12/AR2006071201627.html

One of the big reasons they continue to have a powerful lobby without being labeled as a "special interest" (that is diametrically opposed to the nation's interests) is because Jews have suffered so much at the hands of racists who would drum up hate for Jews by portraying them as sinister and in control.

The people who speak out against this are often immediately branded in the same light as those who buy into stuff like the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and the "Jews control the media" garbage.

When other lobbies become too powerful they are derided as special interests buying power, but it's very difficult politically to characterize the Jewish lobby this way, and Bush Sr. alluded to it once and paid a stiff price for it.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2009 03:20 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Thanks for the informative post & the link you provided, Robert.


(Sigh)

0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2009 03:29 pm
Interesting perspective from a Jerusalem Post columnist. The responses (many disputing his assessment) are very interesting, too!:

The "right" had won? I'm not so sure
Posted by SHMUEL ROSNER
Comments: 21

Quote:
So, who won?

You can find my answer in an article I wrote for The New Republic. As you can see, I do not necessarily agree with the common wisdom according to which the "right" had won.

Here's a paragraph:

Though there are no clear winners from yesterday's polls, the clear loser in this election is ideology. The hardnosed right-wing parties are fairly small--the National Union, presumably representing the settlers and the people who, three years ago, opposed the withdrawal from Gaza, will only have four seats. The left-wing "Peace Now" party, New Movement-Meretz--supported by celebrity authors Amos Oz and David Grossman--won a meager three votes, the worst outcome since its inception. The religious parties lost votes and influence. If a unity government will be formed--which is looking like an increasingly likely possibility--these fringe parties will have almost no influence.

The relative consensus that has been crystallizing among Israelis in recent years means that it is difficult to categorize Israel's major parties as "left" or "right." The country's political landscape consists of very large "center"--to which belong most voters of Likud, Kadima, Labor, and some voters of Lieberman's Yisrael Beiteinu--all in all, about 75 seats out of 120. The margins are now populated by a number of fairly small parties: The Arab parties (7-8 seats), the tiny "left" (Meretz, elements in the Arab-Jewish Hadash, and maybe a member or two of Labor, totaling 6-7 seats), the "right" (National Union, some voters of Yisrael Beiteinu, and some Likud voters, adding up to 15 seats), and the "religious" parties (Shas and United Torah Judaism, with their 15 seats).


http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/rosner/entry/the_right_had_won_i
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2009 04:26 pm
From The Times (UK):
Barney Thompson, Foreign News Editor, in Jerusalem
February 10, 2009


Israel's elections provide little hope for Palestinians

An extreme right-wing kingmaker, the rise of Netanyahu and a continued Hamas presence in Gaza provide bleak prospects

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00482/Benjamin-Netanyahu3_482631a.jpg
Binyamin Netanyahu is favourite to emerge victorious to serve his second stint as Prime Minister

Quote:
There are three main reasons for Palestinians to be deeply pessimistic about today's Israeli elections.

The first is the much-publicised surge in popularity for the far-right Yisrael Beiteinu party, whose leader, Avigdor Lieberman, is almost certain to get a leading role in the new cabinet.

True, Lieberman has worked with centrist and centre-right governments before - he was once chief of staff to Binyamin Netanyahu, the Likud leader, and had a spell as a minister in the outgoing administration - but he is no friend of the Palestinians.

He wants Arab-Israelis to swear loyalty to Israel as a Jewish state and to keep Jewish settlements in the West Bank, handing over to the Palestinians Arab-inhabited areas of Israel in exchange. Much of what he says may be vote-winning firebrand bluster - the loyalty oath is sheer nonsense - but he is at best divisive and at worst dangerous.

Second, much of Israel's political leadership appear to have little belief in, or appetite for, any peace process beyond keeping Hamas quiet in Gaza.

The Government believes it soundly beat Hamas in the recent conflict: it was delighted at the accuracy of its intelligence and the success of its campaign, and points to a number of assumptions Hamas made that were totally undermined. A third intifada - as called for by the Islamist group - failed to materialise; there was no supporting action from Hezbollah, supposedly an ally, in southern Lebanon; Hamas failed to kidnap a single soldier or shoot down an enemy jet; and it believed Israel would never send in its ground troops, a belief that was proved fatally wrong.

Hawks in the Defence Ministry believe it is possible to “finish off” Hamas, although others balk at the time and number of casualties this would involve, but neither party is keen on reoccupying Gaza and its 1.5 million people.

For now, Israel wants a Hamas that is strong enough to stop rockets being fired, but not so strong that it can regroup, import new weapons and win over Gazans by rebuilding the shattered territory - hence the refusal to let cement and other construction materials through the checkpoints.

As for casualties, defence officials believe they were damned if they took military action, and damned if they let the rockets keep on raining down on Sderot, Ashkelon and other towns - so they went in.

Hamas does not want to relinquish Gaza - according to some experts, it kept back its core fighters so they could quickly re-establish control once the fighting was over. Furthermore, it knows it will not be allowed any foothold in the West Bank, run by the moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas who is heavily sponsored by the West, so it has no incentive to join a consensus government with Fatah and little reason to moderate its stance.

Thirdly, the favourite to win the election is Mr Netanyahu. “Bibi”, as he is known, has mooted the idea of economic support for the West Bank as a way of encouraging moderates before any political progress can be made. This, say his opponents, just lets him kick a Palestinian state into the long grass. In any case, they add, Mr Netanyahu’s idea of statehood is of an emasculated entity - no defence force, no independent airspace, and totally reliant on Israel for its contacts with the outside world. This is not statehood, the Palestinians complain. It is autonomy - and the situation will not be resolved but merely managed.

Put all this together - a far-right Cabinet minister antipathetic to Arab-Israelis, a Hamas regime that is contained but not vanquished, and a Likud-led administration with no interest in going further down the line towards a Palestinian state - and one fears for the people of Gaza, and for any hope of progress in the peace process.

Gazans will not have their homes rebuilt, they cannot speak out against Hamas without fear of execution - and, at the same time, will continue to hate the army that destroyed their homes and killed their brethren.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/world_agenda/article5700958.ece

0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2009 04:51 pm
@Robert Gentel,
You are partly correct, Robet Gentel. Israel's strategy has not changed for much of its existence...and it hasn't brought them security. Nethanyahu holds that any major capitulation to the fanatical Anti-Semites predged to destroy Israel, will be like climbing back into the railroad cars for transportation to ?

They may not have air tight security but they can live and prosper. It is not the first time in History that the Islamic Hordes have attacked other nations.
There was no negotiation then. There will be none now UNLESS Hamas and other fundamentalists allow Israel to strenghten their security.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2009 06:27 pm
@genoves,
genoves wrote:
They may not have air tight security but they can live and prosper. It is not the first time in History that the Islamic Hordes have attacked other nations.
There was no negotiation then. There will be none now UNLESS Hamas and other fundamentalists allow Israel to strenghten their security.


Israel has more security now than it has ever had it her history, and won't get any more (e.g. they can't stop the rockets) till a final resolution happens. It just doesn't get more secure than this without making peace.
genoves
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2009 06:58 pm
@Robert Gentel,
I agree but it cannot be peace on Hamas's terms, it must be peace on Israel's terms. Most American Historians agree that it is Israel which has been more forthcoming, not the murderous fanatical Muslims who blew themselves up on Israeli buses and inside Israeli nightclubs.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Feb, 2009 05:16 am
Binyamin Netanyahu warns of Iranian nuclear threat
February 21, 2009/the Times/UK
James Hider in Jerusalem

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00490/Netanyahu_490979a.jpg
Likud Party leader Benjamin Netanyahu greets his supporters
Quote:
Israel was set for the return to power of Binyamin Netanyahu after the Likud leader was invited to form a coalition government yesterday.

Immediately after he was invited to become the next prime minister by President Peres, Mr Netanyahu lost no time in restating his warnings about a nuclear-armed Iran, calling it the greatest existential threat faced by Israel since its creation. His words came a day after the UN announced that Tehran had acquired sufficient uranium to build a nuclear bomb " a “red line” development Israel has said it will not tolerate.

Likud came second in last week’s elections to the Kadima party, led by Tzipi Livni, but Mr Netanyahu’s chances of forming a government are significantly greater. However, he may find himself at the head of a narrow, far-right coalition that is at war with itself and at loggerheads with the US.

His main partner will be the hardline nationalist party Yisraeil Beitenu, led by Moldovan Avigdor Lieberman. With the support of the remaining parties on the right " the ultra-Orthodox and settler factions " the new coalition will be able to count on 65 MPs in the 120-seat Knesset.

As well as his willingness to confront Iran over its nuclear ambitions Mr Netanyahu opposes the establishment of a Palestinian state, an issue on which the US Government will want to make progress.

George Mitchell, the peace envoy appointed by President Obama almost as soon as he took office, fired a warning shot across Mr Netanyahu’s bows, saying that Israel needed to pursue a political track with the Palestinians, not just an economic one " which is what Mr Netahyahu has proposed.

The Likud leader’s plan for an “economic peace” means that Israeli forces would keep security control of the West Bank and its borders and air space. Palestinians would police their own towns. Israelis would mount raids against militants deemed a threat.

In return Israel would build industrial centres and attempt to bolster the Palestinian economy in an effort to turn the population away from radicalism. It is unlikely that any Palestinian leadership could accept such terms and retain any credibility, especially with support for Hamas on the rise. ... <cont>


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5776460.ece



msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Feb, 2009 05:34 am
From Times Online
February 20, 2009
James Hider, Jerusalem

Analysis: how right-wing will Netanyahu's coalition be?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00490/israel5_490650a.jpg
(Sebastian Scheiner/AP)
Power swung back in Netanyahu's favour after he was backed by the Moldovan born bouncer Avigdor Lieberman


Quote:
Binyamin Netanyahu’s appointment as Prime Minister-designate this morning will be a bitter-sweet victory for the right-wing Israeli leader.

While clinching the nomination from President Shimon Peres, the smooth-talking, US-educated former commando " Bibi, as he is known in Israel " may find himself at the head of a narrow, far-right coalition that is at war with itself and at loggerheads with the new US Administration.

Headed by Mr Netanyahu’s Likud " which has lurched to the right since its former leader Ariel Sharon left to form the centrist Kadima party three years ago " and with its mainstay in the far-right Yisrael Beitenu party of Avigdor Lieberman, the new coalition will be able to count on 65 MPs in the 120-seat Knesset.

Bolstered by ultra-Orthodox and settler parties, Mr Netanyahu’s government will enshrine the neo-conservative, hawkish values of the Bush Administration, just at a moment when American has suddenly swung back to its more liberal values under Barack Obama. ...<cont>


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5773760.ece
0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2009 02:02 am
@msolga,
msolga- They couldn't get a better man. Bibi will kick fundamentalist Muslim killers' asses! He is no one to trifle with!
genoves
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2009 02:04 am
As I said:

It is highly likely that Benjamin Netanyahu can gather more support that Livni. The left wing Socialists have lost heavily. Lieberman's group has gained. The numbers show that Peres must appoint Nethanyahu. Nethanyahu will not allow the Palestinians to hurl missles against Israel. He will make them pay tenfold.

Of course, the world's most charismatic,most powerful and most intelligent man can sit down with Nethanyahu to convince him to play nice with Hamas.

Nethanyahu will probably end up giving Obama what is known throughout Washington, DC as the Rahm Emanuel salute!!
0 Replies
 
 

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