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Would it have been possible for Jesus to have sinned?

 
 
tycoon
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 03:59 pm
It seems to me, whether literal or spiritual, 'ask and you'll be given' is still a lie.

I've asked for the spiritual Christ to come into my life. Earnestly. I've tried to seek him, and I've sure knocked on a few doors (whatever that means).

No luck, kids.

Intrepid
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 06:15 pm
@tycoon,
tycoon wrote:

It seems to me, whether literal or spiritual, 'ask and you'll be given' is still a lie.

I've asked for the spiritual Christ to come into my life. Earnestly. I've tried to seek him, and I've sure knocked on a few doors (whatever that means).

No luck, kids.

Perhaps you haven't asked with a real longing in your heart. Perhaps you haven't tried hard enough. The door is open to all if they really want it.


0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:21 pm
@Intrepid,
Intrepid wrote:

That is what I was saying without using the clear wording that you used. Smile
Of course. 3 thumbs up. LOL
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:22 pm
@Intrepid,
You sure dress funny
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:29 pm
@tycoon,
tycoon wrote:

It seems to me, whether literal or spiritual, 'ask and you'll be given' is still a lie.

I've asked for the spiritual Christ to come into my life. Earnestly. I've tried to seek him, and I've sure knocked on a few doors (whatever that means).

No luck, kids.


I don't believe you have come to understand him at all.

Not that skepticism is a mistake; it's an asset; just don't give up.

It's not a matter of luck, kid. Smile
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 11:07 pm
@neologist,
The Number of the Beast is a concept from the Book of Revelation of the New Testament.

Jesus was in the desert for 40 days and the Israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years.

Hebrew and Greek written languages have no numeric characters but they do have numeric equivalencies.
Chumly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 11:14 pm
@neologist,
And especially let's not be guided by empiricism, after all what's the point in spoiling naivety?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 11:19 pm
@Chumly,
Chumly wrote:

The Number of the Beast is a concept from the Book of Revelation of the New Testament.

Jesus was in the desert for 40 days and the Israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years.

Hebrew and Greek written languages have no numeric characters but they do have numeric equivalencies.
Some numbers have symbolic meaning because of their use.
7 creative days
forgive 77 times
7 is a godly number of completeness, perfection.

6, being 1 short of 7, represents imperfection
666, referred to as man's number, is man's level of imperfection.

The earth has been through only six creative days, the seventh not yet ended.

More on this, of course.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 11:21 pm
@Chumly,
Let us not be mislead by desire for either reward or license.

To do so would be tragically naive
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 06:22 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

You sure dress funny


Huh? Confused
rydinearth
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 08:28 pm
You see, it's like this:
God had to kill himself to appease himself, so that he wouldn’t have to roast us (his beloved creations) alive for all eternity, for living according to the nature he himself created in us, and breaking completely arbitrary laws that he created Himself.....except that he didn’t really die.
BTW, if Jesus suffered our punishment for us, does that mean Jesus is roasting in Hell for all eternity? If so, then how will he sit at the right hand of God?

oolongteasup
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 08:49 pm
@neologist,
i'm guessing that the answer to both questions is

self
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 10:28 am
@Intrepid,
Oh, sure. Now you show your face without your outfit.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 10:34 am
@rydinearth,
rydinearth wrote:

You see, it's like this:
God had to kill himself to appease himself, so that he wouldn’t have to roast us (his beloved creations) alive for all eternity, for living according to the nature he himself created in us, and breaking completely arbitrary laws that he created Himself.....except that he didn’t really die.
BTW, if Jesus suffered our punishment for us, does that mean Jesus is roasting in Hell for all eternity? If so, then how will he sit at the right hand of God?


I'm amazed that you have bought into the nominal christian's views regarding the identity of Christ, hellfire, and immortality of the soul.

An educated skeptic as yourself should realize that these views are not supported by the scriptures the bible thumpers attempt to use.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 10:36 am
@oolongteasup,
oolongteasup wrote:

i'm guessing that the answer to both questions is

self
Congratulations on exposing the faulty logic of the trinitarians.
0 Replies
 
najmelliw
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 12:56 pm
Would it have been possible for Jesus to have sinned? I say, whyever not? I mean, he was born a mortal with the express purpose to die for everyone's sins. And the devil tried to tempt him as well, which you astutely pointed out. If he was born a mortal, he was in all likelyhood meant to live as one.
And how come God can't sin anyways? If you create a set of rules to live by, you can break it right? That would be sinning by your own rules, but there's just no one around who can/will punish you for it, and punishment is not an essential part of the definition of sin.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 01:15 pm
There is always the problem of what we mean by 'sin' too. Is 'sin' the violation of Levitical/rabbinical law as the Pharisees or Jews of Jesus' time would have interpreted it? Or the 'common sense law' as described by Jesus and later Paul and others who wrote on their times? Or my definition of 'sin' which is that which harms oneself and/or others?

If the theological doctrine of Jesus being fully human is accepted, then yes, it would be possible for him to sin just as it was possible for him to bleed, to be in pain, to be tempted, to become frustrated, angry, discouraged, afraid, filled with dread, weary, all attributed to him in various passages of the New Testament.

If the theological doctrine of Jesus being without sin and therefore the symbolic unblemished lamb is accepted, we can conclude that he did not sin by anybody's definition.
0 Replies
 
najmelliw
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 03:12 pm
Bah. I never understood the whole discussion anyways. It's plain as day that Jesus was meant to be mortal. It's also plain that he COULD sin, otherwise, there was no use for the devil to try and tempt him. However, if Jesus already HAD sinned, there was also no reason to tempt him. But, as a mortal being, he would have sinned (especially if, as Foxyfire already mentioned, we look at sin at the most narrow sense, as (according to the bible)) the pharizees and sadducees those days tended to do. Indeed, they confronted him several times with accusations of sin (however ludicrous they may sound, in a literal sense, they were right: The most famous case no doubt the man Jesus cured on the sabbath) So what does that mean? Perhaps (and this is what I think is the right way, as far as I can be said to still be an adherent of the Christian faith), there are two types of sin. On the one side, we have theological sin. These are sins in which the believer, consciously and by his free will, denounces god in favor of some kind of gain (probably material and more immediate in nature). This is the kind of sin Jesus never fell for.
Then there is the sin you commit without thinking about it. Perhaps rescuing your cow on the sabbath. Or envying someone his large herd of cows. Or being rude to your parents. Those probably were committed by Jesus as well, but, as not being consequential to the deeper, more fundamental goal of WHY Jesus was here (in order to suffer and die for the sins of mankind), they were 'forgiven'.
The two views (Jesus as mortal, and Jesus as a being without sin) are not completely incompatible, but certainly very improbable, especially if (rather essential to the christian faith) God gave him free will, and thus the choice to accept or reject the burden of dying for the sins of others.

But then again for many believers (and their spiritual leader) it's comforting (if not essential) to see Jesus as some kind of suprahomme, not god perse, but more then a mortal human certainly. Because if he was fully mortal, it would imply that, given free will (given to every person, by way of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil), another human person could conceivably duplicate his offer.
It certainly makes for interesting theological debate, but (like many other theological theories) they are difficult, if not imposble, to prove or disprove.

Naj.
0 Replies
 
perfectlyimperfect
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2009 06:31 pm
@neologist,
Sure, it was "posssible" that he could have sinned. But he didn't. He was as human as we all are. But He is much MUCH stronger than any of us. He was in the presence of tempation while He was on earth, but He resisted temptation. That's why He was the only one who could fill the prophecy of the 'perfect sacrifice'. He was perfect, had a clean soul. Sin seperates us from God, and throughout His lifetime, he chose not to sin. It'd be wise for us to follow His example by learning what sins are, examples, to avoid them. That's why we've been given the holy spirit (our conscience--the factor from God that's in all of us that distinguishes right from wrong. Don't be selfish and doing wrong, because that's what makes you happy. Choose right. Your reward will be in heaven).
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2009 07:41 pm
@perfectlyimperfect,
Actually, all that was necessary for humans to have redemption was for a perfect life to take the place of Adam. Jesus, besides being the quintessential example, is also God's first born - the foremost of all creation. His sacrifice was to give the definitive answer to Satan's lie: that no intelligent creature would continue to serve God out of love when conditions got bad enough.

Like Job, Jesus endured all of Satan's efforts to turn him. No other individual could have given an answer of such worth.
0 Replies
 
 

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