Zionist "Rabbis" Falsify Torah

Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 07:15 am
Zionist "Rabbis" Falsify Torah

The Jewish religion teaches that Jews are in exile by Divine Decree and may emerge from exile solely via Divine redemption. All human efforts to alter a metaphysical reality are doomed to end in failure and bloodshed. History has clearly borne out this teaching.

Zionism, by advocating a political and military end to the Jewish exile, denies the very essence of our Diaspora existence. The religious Zionists have taken the Torah, a book of Divine law which teaches justice, peace and piety, and transformed it into a vehicle for their political goals, a source for their claims to a piece of land. These claims took their latest form this week, when, to our sorrow, the Zionist falsification was brought to the world’s eyes by the media.

In conjunction with President Bush's visit to the State of Israel, several rabbis of the extremist Zionist settler community penned a letter to the President, asking him to stop "putting pressure on the Israeli leadership" to make land concessions to the Palestinian Authority.

The letter read in part:

"In the name of the people of Israel, the Land of Israel, the Torah of Israel and the G-d of Israel, we demand that his honor the president cease the pressure on the State to hand lands to the Arabs… Honorable President, you must not be remembered in history as Nebuchadnezzar and Titus who destroyed Jerusalem. You must surely remember that American does not benefit from causing damage, Heaven forbid, to the Jewish people and its land. If you help the wholeness of our holy land, we promise you and your country endless blessings."

Signed: Rabbis Dov Lior, David Druckman, Yaakov Yosef, Shmuel Eliyahu and Shalom Dov Wolpe.

Jews Against Zionism condemns this latest act of chutzpah and ingratitude. The writers of this letter call themselves rabbis and speak in the name of the Jewish religion, but the world must not allow itself to be fooled. They are radical politicians and militants advancing their own agenda, for which they are distorting the Holy Torah and jeopardizing Jews everywhere.

"It is a pity that these men wear yarmulkes and black hats, for it not Judaism that drives them but a foreign ideology," said Rabbi Hersh Lowenthal. "They claim to represent the Torah of Israel and the G-d of Israel, but actually their ideology is to flaunt G-d's decree of exile and take over the Holy Land at a time when the Torah forbids us to have it."

For these extremists, the age-old Jewish tradition of speaking respectfully to gentile leaders is gone, to be replaced by a new standard of belligerent claims and dark threats. According to them, America has been punished in the past and may be punished again for not complying with the wishes of a small group of ultra-Zionist fanatics.

We look forward to the Messianic Era, when Jerusalem will be “a house of prayer for all nations” (Isaiah 56:7)

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The Anointed
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2021 12:32 am
@Solve et Coagula,
Solve et Coagula wrote ….. We look forward to the Messianic Era, when Jerusalem will be “a house of prayer for all nations” (Isaiah 56:7)

The Anointed Responds ..... The Jews who believe the words of their lord as revealed through his prophets, believe that the Messianic age will not happen until those prophecies have been fulfilled just a few of those , prophecies as follows.


א מִי-זֶה בָּא מֵאֱדוֹם, חֲמוּץ בְּגָדִים מִבָּצְרָה, זֶה הָדוּר בִּלְבוּשׁוֹ, צֹעֶה בְּרֹב כֹּחוֹ; אֲנִי מְדַבֵּר בִּצְדָקָה, רַב לְהוֹשִׁיעַ. 1 'Who is this that cometh from Edom, with crimsoned garments from Bozrah? This that is glorious in his apparel, stately in the greatness of his strength?'--'I that speak in victory, mighty to save.'--
ב מַדּוּעַ אָדֹם, לִלְבוּשֶׁךָ; וּבְגָדֶיךָ, כְּדֹרֵךְ בְּגַת. 2 'Wherefore is Thine apparel red, and Thy garments like his that treadeth in the winevat?'--
ג פּוּרָה דָּרַכְתִּי לְבַדִּי, וּמֵעַמִּים אֵין-אִישׁ אִתִּי, וְאֶדְרְכֵם בְּאַפִּי, וְאֶרְמְסֵם בַּחֲמָתִי; וְיֵז נִצְחָם עַל-בְּגָדַי, וְכָל-מַלְבּוּשַׁי אֶגְאָלְתִּי. 3 'I have trodden the winepress alone, and of the peoples there was no man with Me; yea, I trod them in Mine anger, and trampled them in My fury; and their lifeblood is dashed against My garments, and I have stained all My raiment.
ד כִּי יוֹם נָקָם, בְּלִבִּי; וּשְׁנַת גְּאוּלַי, בָּאָה. 4 For the day of vengeance that was in My heart, and My year of redemption are come.
ה וְאַבִּיט וְאֵין עֹזֵר, וְאֶשְׁתּוֹמֵם וְאֵין סוֹמֵךְ; וַתּוֹשַׁע לִי זְרֹעִי, וַחֲמָתִי הִיא סְמָכָתְנִי. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help, and I beheld in astonishment, and there was none to uphold; therefore Mine own arm brought salvation unto Me, and My fury, it upheld Me.
ו וְאָבוּס עַמִּים בְּאַפִּי, וַאֲשַׁכְּרֵם בַּחֲמָתִי; וְאוֹרִיד לָאָרֶץ, נִצְחָם. {ס} 6 And I trod down the peoples in Mine anger, and made them drunk with My fury, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.' {S}
ז חַסְדֵי יְהוָה אַזְכִּיר, תְּהִלֹּת יְהוָה, כְּעַל, כֹּל אֲשֶׁר-גְּמָלָנוּ יְהוָה; וְרַב-טוּב לְבֵית יִשְׂרָאֵל, אֲשֶׁר-גְּמָלָם כְּרַחֲמָיו וּכְרֹב חֲסָדָיו. 7 I will make mention of the mercies of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us; and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which He hath bestowed on them according to His compassions, and according to the multitude of His mercies.

NUMBERS 24: 16-19.

טז נְאֻם, שֹׁמֵעַ אִמְרֵי-אֵל, וְיֹדֵעַ, דַּעַת עֶלְיוֹן; מַחֲזֵה שַׁדַּי יֶחֱזֶה, נֹפֵל וּגְלוּי עֵינָיִם. 16 The saying of him who heareth the words of God, and knoweth the knowledge of the Most High, who seeth the vision of the Almighty, fallen down, yet with opened eyes:
יז אֶרְאֶנּוּ וְלֹא עַתָּה, אֲשׁוּרֶנּוּ וְלֹא קָרוֹב; דָּרַךְ כּוֹכָב מִיַּעֲקֹב, וְקָם שֵׁבֶט מִיִּשְׂרָאֵל, וּמָחַץ פַּאֲתֵי מוֹאָב, וְקַרְקַר כָּל-בְּנֵי-שֵׁת. 17 I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not nigh; there shall step forth a star out of Jacob, and a scepter shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite through the corners of Moab, and break down all the sons of Seth.
יח וְהָיָה אֱדוֹם יְרֵשָׁה, וְהָיָה יְרֵשָׁה שֵׂעִיר--אֹיְבָיו; וְיִשְׂרָאֵל, עֹשֶׂה חָיִל. 18 And Edom shall be a possession, Seir also, even his enemies, shall be a possession; while Israel doeth valiantly.
יט וְיֵרְדְּ, מִיַּעֲקֹב; וְהֶאֱבִיד שָׂרִיד, מֵעִיר. 19 And out of Jacob shall one have dominion, and shall destroy the remnant from the city.

(ZECHARIAH 14: 1-19.)

א הִנֵּה יוֹם-בָּא, לַיהוָה; וְחֻלַּק שְׁלָלֵךְ, בְּקִרְבֵּךְ. 1 Behold, a day of the LORD cometh, when thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
ב וְאָסַפְתִּי אֶת-כָּל-הַגּוֹיִם אֶל-יְרוּשָׁלִַם, לַמִּלְחָמָה, וְנִלְכְּדָה הָעִיר וְנָשַׁסּוּ הַבָּתִּים, וְהַנָּשִׁים תשגלנה (תִּשָּׁכַבְנָה); וְיָצָא חֲצִי הָעִיר, בַּגּוֹלָה, וְיֶתֶר הָעָם, לֹא יִכָּרֵת מִן-הָעִיר. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, but the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
ג וְיָצָא יְהוָה, וְנִלְחַם בַּגּוֹיִם הָהֵם, כְּיוֹם הִלָּחֲמוֹ, בְּיוֹם קְרָב. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fighteth in the day of battle.
ד וְעָמְדוּ רַגְלָיו בַּיּוֹם-הַהוּא עַל-הַר הַזֵּיתִים אֲשֶׁר עַל-פְּנֵי יְרוּשָׁלִַם, מִקֶּדֶם, וְנִבְקַע הַר הַזֵּיתִים מֵחֶצְיוֹ מִזְרָחָה וָיָמָּה, גֵּיא גְּדוֹלָה מְאֹד; וּמָשׁ חֲצִי הָהָר צָפוֹנָה, וְחֶצְיוֹ-נֶגְבָּה. 4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleft in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, so that there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
ה וְנַסְתֶּם גֵּיא-הָרַי, כִּי-יַגִּיעַ גֵּי-הָרִים אֶל-אָצַל, וְנַסְתֶּם כַּאֲשֶׁר נַסְתֶּם מִפְּנֵי הָרַעַשׁ, בִּימֵי עֻזִּיָּה מֶלֶךְ-יְהוּדָה; וּבָא יְהוָה אֱלֹהַי, כָּל-קְדֹשִׁים עִמָּךְ. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azel; yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and the LORD my God shall come, and all the holy ones with Thee.
ו וְהָיָה, בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא; לֹא-יִהְיֶה אוֹר, יְקָרוֹת יקפאון (וְקִפָּאוֹן). 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that there shall not be light, but heavy clouds and thick;
ז וְהָיָה יוֹם-אֶחָד, הוּא יִוָּדַע לַיהוָה--לֹא-יוֹם וְלֹא-לָיְלָה; וְהָיָה לְעֵת-עֶרֶב, יִהְיֶה-אוֹר. 7 And there shall be one day which shall be known as the LORD'S, not day, and not night; but it shall come to pass, that at evening time there shall be light.
ח וְהָיָה בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא, יֵצְאוּ מַיִם-חַיִּים מִירוּשָׁלִַם, חֶצְיָם אֶל-הַיָּם הַקַּדְמוֹנִי, וְחֶצְיָם אֶל-הַיָּם הָאַחֲרוֹן: בַּקַּיִץ וּבָחֹרֶף, יִהְיֶה. 8 And it shall come to pass in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem: half of them toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea; in summer and in winter shall it be.
ט וְהָיָה יְהוָה לְמֶלֶךְ, עַל-כָּל-הָאָרֶץ; בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא, יִהְיֶה יְהוָה אֶחָד--וּשְׁמוֹ אֶחָד. 9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth; in that day shall the LORD be One, and His name one.
י יִסּוֹב כָּל-הָאָרֶץ כָּעֲרָבָה מִגֶּבַע לְרִמּוֹן, נֶגֶב יְרוּשָׁלִָם; וְרָאֲמָה וְיָשְׁבָה תַחְתֶּיהָ לְמִשַּׁעַר בִּנְיָמִן, עַד-מְקוֹם שַׁעַר הָרִאשׁוֹן עַד-שַׁעַר הַפִּנִּים, וּמִגְדַּל חֲנַנְאֵל, עַד יִקְבֵי הַמֶּלֶךְ. 10 All the land shall be turned as the Arabah, from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; and she shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel unto the king's winepresses.
יא וְיָשְׁבוּ בָהּ, וְחֵרֶם לֹא יִהְיֶה-עוֹד; וְיָשְׁבָה יְרוּשָׁלִַם, לָבֶטַח. {ס} 11 And men shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more extermination; but Jerusalem shall dwell safely. {S}
יב וְזֹאת תִּהְיֶה הַמַּגֵּפָה, אֲשֶׁר יִגֹּף יְהוָה אֶת-כָּל-הָעַמִּים, אֲשֶׁר צָבְאוּ, עַל-יְרוּשָׁלִָם; הָמֵק בְּשָׂרוֹ, וְהוּא עֹמֵד עַל-רַגְלָיו, וְעֵינָיו תִּמַּקְנָה בְחֹרֵיהֶן, וּלְשׁוֹנוֹ תִּמַּק בְּפִיהֶם. 12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the peoples that have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their sockets, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
יג וְהָיָה בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא, תִּהְיֶה מְהוּמַת-יְהוָה רַבָּה בָּהֶם; וְהֶחֱזִיקוּ, אִישׁ יַד רֵעֵהוּ, וְעָלְתָה יָדוֹ, עַל-יַד רֵעֵהוּ. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
יד וְגַם-יְהוּדָה--תִּלָּחֵם, בִּירוּשָׁלִָם; וְאֻסַּף חֵיל כָּל-הַגּוֹיִם סָבִיב, זָהָב וָכֶסֶף וּבְגָדִים--לָרֹב מְאֹד. 14 And Judah also shall fight against Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the nations round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
טו וְכֵן תִּהְיֶה מַגֵּפַת הַסּוּס, הַפֶּרֶד הַגָּמָל וְהַחֲמוֹר, וְכָל-הַבְּהֵמָה, אֲשֶׁר יִהְיֶה בַּמַּחֲנוֹת הָהֵמָּה--כַּמַּגֵּפָה, הַזֹּאת. 15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in those camps, as this plague.
טז וְהָיָה, כָּל-הַנּוֹתָר מִכָּל-הַגּוֹיִם, הַבָּאִים, עַל-יְרוּשָׁלִָם; וְעָלוּ מִדֵּי שָׁנָה בְשָׁנָה, לְהִשְׁתַּחֲוֺת לְמֶלֶךְ יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת, וְלָחֹג, אֶת-חַג הַסֻּכּוֹת. 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
יז וְהָיָה אֲשֶׁר לֹא-יַעֲלֶה מֵאֵת מִשְׁפְּחוֹת הָאָרֶץ, אֶל-יְרוּשָׁלִַם, לְהִשְׁתַּחֲוֺת, לְמֶלֶךְ יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת--וְלֹא עֲלֵיהֶם, יִהְיֶה הַגָּשֶׁם. 17 And it shall be, that whoso of the families of the earth goeth not up unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, upon them there shall be no rain.
יח וְאִם-מִשְׁפַּחַת מִצְרַיִם לֹא-תַעֲלֶה וְלֹא בָאָה, וְלֹא עֲלֵיהֶם; תִּהְיֶה הַמַּגֵּפָה, אֲשֶׁר יִגֹּף יְהוָה אֶת-הַגּוֹיִם, אֲשֶׁר לֹא יַעֲלוּ, לָחֹג אֶת-חַג הַסֻּכּוֹת. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, they shall have no overflow; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
יט זֹאת תִּהְיֶה, חַטַּאת מִצְרָיִם; וְחַטַּאת, כָּל-הַגּוֹיִם, אֲשֶׁר לֹא יַעֲלוּ, לָחֹג אֶת-חַג הַסֻּכּוֹת. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

If you are a Jew and have faith in the words of your Lord as revealed through your prophets, you should have no real concern for the fate of your people.

So come out of the world mate and become a spectator, and cease to be a participator in that which has already been decided upon.
0 Replies
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2021 08:10 am
@Solve et Coagula,
Wow, this is old. But I've run out of topics to post on so I went to Spirituality section.

There are some definite distortions with the Jewish text. I have talked to actual Jews, and it seems like they are okay around the Old Testament, but even quotes from the prophets by Jesus are largely lost on them. I get the sense not only that they are denying Jesus but also some of the more serious prophets who asked on God's behalf for them to address serious problems with their faith.

But I'm afraid you don't understand something either. You see, whenever our government has been anti-Israel, it usually allies itself with the Muslims, who continue to invade much of Europe in the guise of immigration. They dont even need to use any weapons, they figured out how to game the process of signing forms, then out-populating the native people. Biden administration, Obama administration, Clinton administration, all of these allowed weakness to exist. It was only when there was a solid nation of Israel, when we were committed to protecting Jews that our own country was decent.

Bush is gone, Obama almost cost us our country, Trump narrowly saved it a few more years, but now we're back to the wicked running things. See what happened to Afghanistan, another key country. We left it behind, and the Taliban shows up again. To be honest, everyone knows Biden is really too senile to run things. This is Obama's third term.
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2021 08:27 am
See what happened to Afghanistan, another key country. We left it behind, and the Taliban shows up again.

This statement reveals that you are sadly misinformed.

The great question of America’s twenty-year war in Afghanistan was not whether the Afghans were fit for democracy. It was whether democratic values were strong enough in the US to be projected onto a traumatized society seven thousand miles away. Those values include the accountability of the people in power, the consistent and universal application of human rights, a clear understanding of what policies are trying to achieve, the prevention of corrupt financial influence over political decisions, and the fundamental truthfulness of public utterances. In the first two decades of the twenty-first century, the American republic was fighting, and often losing, a domestic battle to uphold those values for its own citizens.

It is grimly unsurprising that the US could not infuse them into a very foreign country. While the political system of the US was approaching the crisis that culminated in the presidency of Donald Trump and the Capitol riots, its most enduring external adventure could not avoid moving in tandem toward the grim climax of the flight from Kabul. Afghanistan became a dark mirror held up to the travails of American democracy. It reflected back, sometimes in exaggerated forms, the weaknesses of the homeland’s political culture. Critics of the war argued that the US could not create a polity in its own image on the far side of the world. The tragic truth is that in many ways it did exactly that.


In 2015 Joseph Goldstein reported in The New York Times that US soldiers were instructed not to intervene in the kidnapping and rape of boys, even when the crimes were being committed on their own military bases. He interviewed a former Special Forces captain, Dan Quinn, who beat up a US-backed militia commander who had a boy chained to his bed. Quinn was relieved of his own command and sent home from Afghanistan. In response to the story, an army spokesman blithely confirmed that “there would be no express requirement that US military personnel in Afghanistan report” child sexual abuse by allied forces.

Apart from being morally abhorrent, the facilitation of these crimes exposed deep fault lines. One was the idea that it was best not to “alienate allies in the fight against the Taliban.” It suggests that these allies were not seen as the ordinary people of Afghanistan, the families whose children were kidnapped or the villagers who lived under this terror. As early as 2002, Jon Lee Anderson, in The Lion’s Grave, perhaps the most widely read American book about the US-led invasion, wrote that “one of the first things the Taliban did—a popular move—was to punish mujahideen commanders who were accused of rape or pederasty.” If this was known to be a popular move by the Taliban, did it not occur to American policymakers that taking the opposite approach might be unpopular and indeed alienating?


The overlap between the failures of America’s own democracy and of its mission in Afghanistan is nowhere clearer than in the creation of a kleptocracy. One of the most basic functions of a democratic system is ensuring accountability for the use of public money. The Americans knew when they entered Afghanistan that corruption was already widespread. Their main response was to feed it with billions of taxpayers’ dollars. This was not naive or innocent. It too was policy. It was based on an article of faith for conservative Americans: trickle-down economics. If, in the US, you believed that it did not matter if some people became filthy rich by dubious means because some of their wealth would leak out to ordinary folk, why not apply that to Afghanistan?

In his SIGAR interview, Boucher said that it was better to funnel the vast sums of US aid to Afghan power brokers who “would probably take 20 percent for personal use” than to give it to “a bunch of expensive American experts.” He said, “I want it to disappear in Afghanistan, rather than in the Beltway. Probably in the end it is going to make sure that more of the money gets to some villager, maybe through five layers of corrupt officials, but still gets to some villager.”

The war was not just a projection of American power into a troubled part of Asia. It was a test of the nature of that power. It showed that if war is the continuation of politics by other means, what was continued over twenty years in Afghanistan was a dangerous American nonchalance about the difficulty and fragility of democracy. The prevailing assumption over those years was that a stable democracy could be created and sustained without a commitment to telling the truth, without controlling the distorting effects of money, without standing up to the avidity of the rich, without proper mechanisms for open scrutiny and rational deliberation, without a commitment to moral standards that apply as much to our allies as to our enemies. Democracy without those values and systems has no substance. It will fall—and not just in Afghanistan.

The Americans running the show there were never convinced by the performance. They just could not stir themselves to do much about it. They watched the notion of a democratic republic they had conjured for a suffering people slip away bit by bit until it collapsed catastrophically. They settled into a strange pattern of dazed powerlessness. Successive American administrations, Republican and Democratic, became spectators at a drama in which the follies and dangers of their own domestic polity were played out in exotic foreign costumes. They failed to see that this story was also about themselves.

...from The Lie of Nation Building

This is Obama's third term.

And this one shows that you are delusional.
Reply Tue 12 Oct, 2021 01:06 am
What part of "refusing to believe that a senile oldman is actually in charge," do you think is delusional?

Because from where I stand, the one without a firm gri on things seems to be you. Biden is on record says "Uhhh they don't want me to talk about this." Meaning he has handlers that put words in his mouth. When we trace his actions, they seem to be essentially Obama's squadundoing the last four years and reinstating Obamacare.

As for the other, that's a nice long article that I'm not gonna read. Such things are opinions. Many of us here believe that there are such things as facts, and anything contradicting them is "fake news". But least 90% of all information is perspective. Opinion. Now, I can face this sort of world without going insane, unlike many people who go around screaming "conspiracy theory" and "fake news." I understand that there is such a thing as fact but it's far more rare than most of us would like to belive. Fact can only be verified through logic. It most definitely canot be borne out by sources, as the writers can be outright lying And even logic is not infallible .

Here's the thing. This is not about nation building. This is about an asshat leaving a power vacuum. He moved away, leaving a shameful mess in the area. So the Taliban seized control. Supposing America fell tomorrow. We'd have the Native Americans, the Blacks, and other minorities would fight for turf. A power vacuum that other psrties use to take over.

Whether nation-building works or not, screwing a country up means the country's citizens all have to immigrate. Even 10% of these immigrants are actually terrorist types, you've basically invited an invasion force in with those who legit have to leave the country? So then which is better? Using you resources to help their actually make their country prosperous enough that they don't have to go anywhere? Or playing nanny to the entire world? This question btw is litmus test for bullshit, because there is no reasonable reason why #2 would be valued over the financial stability of Afghanistan. Afghanistan should be a country that has good economics. If we claim to care about them yet leave their cities in rubble, we're probably lying.
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2021 01:43 am
Well this post of yours was better than a number I'd previously read. And from what you wrote, you seem one of the few that understand that the only thing you can verify is what you see with your own eyes...and even then how you interpret it is likely to be skewed by our own biases. You are quite right that most of what you read is opinion, and even when facts are used, the use is too often motivated by purely wanting to support an underlying opinion, rather than a desire to understand the complete picture.

Afghanistan should be a country that has good economics.
Afghanistan was never that sort of country. It has always been a country on a map only, rather than in reality.

But I too doubt that the U.S. or any other western country actually cares much about Afghanistan, other than what it means to them politically.
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2021 07:45 am
Actually, during the 70s, it was mostly a western country.


Afghani countryside.


Afghani cities


Afghani women

Afghanistan was on the cusp of prosperity when it got hijacked and taken over by Muslims. Now it's just a "place on the map" and nobody cares. Yes, but I care.
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2021 02:57 pm
No one said it never had a city, with modern buildings, nor areas that weren't peacefully settled for a time (all cities require farmland) - I said it's never been a country except on a map. I should have added the word 'really' to 'been a country'.

It has 'traditionally' had a king in Kabul - but warlords ruled the provinces. Nationalism as a sentiment appears only nominal - and probably only truly touted by whoever rules Kabul. Rather, it has a history of constant internal conflict. But it does appear to arguably band together when invaded. It might be closer to an old City State that nearby powers paid fealty to, but those nearby powers otherwise autonomously ruled themselves.

On only a loosely related side note - that photo reminded me that one of the prettiest women I've ever met, both her parents were Afghani
bobsal u1553115
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2021 03:16 pm
@Solve et Coagula,
It amuses me when cultists of one cult offer their criticisms of cultists from other cults.
0 Replies
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2021 12:07 am
You're gonna have to explain what you mean by ”country" then.

In the 70s, I would call this a country. A developing country, for sure, but a country with history, culture, education, working trade, and such. I've watched a movie called The Breadwinner as I probably mentioned. It shows in graphic detail, today's Afghanistan. The streets are bombed out. There is little work to be had, and it's all for mom.The story shows that for a household without men (the man of the house is arrested and only a little boy is left and three females) there are no options. Even wearing hijab, which the story show is liable to blow away resulting in beatings for the person involved, the women in the story are barely able to gather water, and completely unable to buy food without being accompanied by a male. Given no options, the daughter has to pose as her dead older brother. This is clearly dysfunctional, and the society gets worse as the movie goes on. This is not a country, the citizens can barely read, to the point where there are paid readers. It is more akin to a warring state, where even young kids join the Taliban to go shoot stuff, and brothers can die from thinking a bomb is a toy and playing with.

Why did I talk about Biden earlier? Well a "country" that has no working trade isn't a country either. Many businesses are well in debt (most airports) but the government bails them out to keep the business working. As for thos that remain, they are often boycotted by liberals ( "I don't safe from the virus, I'm staying home") and conservativ es (" not wearing a mask, so why bother shopping? "). Same for employees, people are either afraid of disease are balking at the idea of being forced to take a medicine. And so, businesses are understaffed and basically failing. Our post office doesn't work, and hasn't for years. This is not a working country anymore.
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2021 02:29 am
You're gonna have to explain what you mean by ”country" then.
The normal understanding of what a country entails:

A defined area of land (this part Afghanistan meets) that:

- has a functioning government (Afghanistans government does not function throughout its mapped land, and functions poorly at best, barely able to enforce it's rules past Kabul, and overthrown on a historically frequent basis)

- where the significant majority of the people see the 'country' as an entity (this encompasses both the people and the government. Without the sense of entity, the notion of 'country' doesn't actually exist - you'd get perhaps 'peoples' instead, but the same peoples can exist among multiple countries. Afghani's appear to see themselves as the same peoples, but with large percentages whose allegiances are not to the country, but rather - to their warlord, or city)

The notion of being of the same peoples is why the US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand co-operate so closely, while being different countries. The majority of them have English heritage, speak english, and have similar culture, values, laws, economic, health and education standards.
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2021 02:45 am
That is to say the mere fact of being of the same peoples does not make a place a country (as the same peoples can exist across multiple countries). A peoples can even exist in the same place, as Americans and Canadians do in Northern America, without the entire place they occupy being the same country.
0 Replies

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