63
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  4  
Thu 20 Aug, 2015 07:24 am
African-American rights activists endorse boycott of Israel

Young African-Americans facing heavily armed police in the streets of Baltimore and Ferguson over the past year have compared their situation to that of Palestinians under Israeli fire, telling reporters that their conditions were “like Gaza.” On Tuesday, black racial-justice activists took the comparison a step further, issuing a statement linking their cause with that of Palestinians, and putting their weight behind the growing boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) movement.

The BDS campaign, modeled after the mass movement to isolate South Africa during the apartheid era, aims to pressure Israel through tactics of economic and cultural isolation into ending its occupation of Palestinian territories and adhering to international law in its treatment of Palestinians.

Tuesday’s statement — signed by more than 1,000 black activists, artists, scholars, politicians, students and representatives of organizations — proclaimed their “solidarity with the Palestinian struggle and commitment to the liberation of Palestine’s land and people.”

“We offer this statement first and foremost to Palestinians, whose suffering does not go unnoticed and whose resistance and resilience under racism and colonialism inspires us,” the statement said. The activists said they are committed to working through cultural, economic and political means to help the Palestinians’ cause.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/8/19/black-activists-endorse-bds-movement.html
Foofie
 
  1  
Thu 20 Aug, 2015 09:40 am
@bobsal u1553115,
There are a couple of hundred thousand Ethiopian Jews in Israel, who were being persecuted in Ethiopia, until Israel literally evacuated them to Israel (circa 1980's). Today they are living, working, and having their high birth rate in Israel.

So, it seems incorrect to equate racial justice to the political situation with the Palestinians, that is not based on race (less than half of Israel are Jews of European descent). In my opinion, the problem is based on "turf" and autonomy, since prior to 1967, the Palestinians never needed autonomy from whoever was over their areas.

Anyway, as far as racial justice goes, I think Ethiopian Jews "got more blood" than Palestinian Arabs, Ethiopia being truly in the African "hood."


Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 20 Aug, 2015 09:58 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
There are a couple of hundred thousand Ethiopian Jews in Israel, ...

According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the number is 125,000.

Thousands of Ethiopian Israelis have been demonstrating in past months to protest their difficult situation. But it seems, there situation is getting better (see report at link/source)
Quote:
And by the way, the unfortunate figure that comes up in almost all areas of the Taub study is that Ethiopian Israelis are already pulling ahead of Arab Israelis. This shows that Israel’s problem of discrimination and exclusion stems not only from racism toward Israelis of Ethiopian origin, but toward Arabs as well.
Source
Foofie
 
  1  
Thu 20 Aug, 2015 10:14 am
@Walter Hinteler,
You are proving what point? Is Israel paying the Ethiopian Jews to go back to Ethiopia, like Germany is paying Turkish guest workers to go back to Turkey?
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Thu 20 Aug, 2015 11:02 am
@Foofie,
Did I mention such? I don't think so.

What I did, however, was giving some sources from Israel about the new topic you started here.
Sorry, if those sources don't back your opinion.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Thu 20 Aug, 2015 11:13 am
@Foofie,
Coming back to the other part of your assumption:
"Gastarbeiter" (guestworker) was a term used in the 60's of last century.

The conservative government had written a secret paper in the early 1980's to pay some money to those Turkish persons here in Germany, who wanted to return (Kohl obviously wanted to reduce the number of Turks here by 50%). This was stopped by the courts.

Today, out of the nearly 3 Million persons of Turkish origin living in Germany, 1.7 million are of German nationality.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  5  
Thu 20 Aug, 2015 12:19 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
So, it seems incorrect to equate racial justice to the political situation with the Palestinians, that is not based on race (less than half of Israel are Jews of European descent). In my opinion, the problem is based on "turf" and autonomy, since prior to 1967, the Palestinians never needed autonomy from whoever was over their areas.

Yeah, it isn't racial justice. It's ethnic justice.

The Palestinians never needed autonomy from whoever was over their areas because they weren't being discriminated against and oppressed like the way they are at the hands of the Zionists.
Foofie
 
  1  
Thu 20 Aug, 2015 07:24 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Foofie wrote:
So, it seems incorrect to equate racial justice to the political situation with the Palestinians, that is not based on race (less than half of Israel are Jews of European descent). In my opinion, the problem is based on "turf" and autonomy, since prior to 1967, the Palestinians never needed autonomy from whoever was over their areas.

Yeah, it isn't racial justice. It's ethnic justice.

The Palestinians never needed autonomy from whoever was over their areas because they weren't being discriminated against and oppressed like the way they are at the hands of the Zionists.



But my point originated when it was pointed out that Black activists who are concerned with racial justice, like South Africa needed racial justice, is comparing what cannot be equated to racial injustice, since it is just turf wanted by two ethnicities, not races. Racial injustice is not ethnic injustice, since in most cities there is a jousting for jobs, neighborhoods, etc., between ethnicities. No racism involved.

You and I are of different ethnicities, and in your neck of the woods, I might not even be able to buy a home. Not a problem; business as usual.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Thu 20 Aug, 2015 09:04 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
The Palestinians never needed autonomy from whoever was over their areas because they weren't being discriminated against and oppressed like the way they are at the hands of the Zionists.

It wasn't Israelis who were throwing handcuffed Palestinians off the tops of tall buildings in Gaza.

All "the Zionists" do is prevent Palestinians from murdering innocent Israelis.
georgeob1
 
  2  
Fri 21 Aug, 2015 07:18 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

[All "the Zionists" do is prevent Palestinians from murdering innocent Israelis.


Oh I think they have done much more than that. In 1967 they cut the Palestinians off from contact with Jordan and held them under military rule with no political rights at all for almost two decades, during which time they expropriated large tracts of Palestinian land for Zionist settlements, without regard for the rights of the previous owners.

Palestinian mortality as a result of Israeli retaliation is a good deal greater than the than that of the Israelis. I don't see a lot of moral difference here.

There's a great deal of excess in my view) hostility towards Israel in the contemporary western world. I believe that is regrettable. However, it is also a fact that the narrow-minded blanket denial such as you exhibit is a contributing cause . It would be very hard to conclude that Israeli security is today any better than four decades ago or that public sympathy for the continued exostence of a Jewish state is greater now than then. Indeed the opposite is the case. Why do you suppose that is so???
Ionus
 
  0  
Fri 21 Aug, 2015 10:35 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
without regard for the rights of the previous owners.
Efforts were made to repay those Palestinians but those who accepted had a strong tendency to be murdered by Palestinian Authorities .

Quote:
Palestinian mortality as a result of Israeli retaliation is a good deal greater than the than that of the Israelis.
Palestinian mortality as a result of Palestinian retaliation to control their own citizenry is a good deal greater than the than that of the Israeli retaliation .

Quote:
It would be very hard to conclude that Israeli security is today any better than four decades ago
Seriously ? Egypt signed a peace accord, Syria is in turmoil, Iraq is in turmoil, Libya is in turmoil, Jordan has more pressing concerns, Lebanon has been neutralised, Iran is an out cast, Saudi Arabia is distracted....how are they NOT better off ?
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Sat 22 Aug, 2015 03:57 pm
In reference to the title of this thread, way too many senators and representatives seem to ignore facts just as many on this site do.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Sat 22 Aug, 2015 04:27 pm
@Foofie,
Wrong again:

Racism in Israel
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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The neutrality of this article is disputed. Relevant discussion may be found on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. (August 2014)

Racism in Israel refers to all forms and manifestations of racism experienced in Israel, irrespective of the colour or creed of the perpetrator and victim, or their citizenship, residency, or visitor status.

More specifically in the Israeli context, however, racism in Israel refers to racism directed against Israeli Arabs by Israeli Jews,[1] intra-Jewish racism between the various Jewish ethnic divisions (in particular against Ethiopian Jews,[2] and to historic and alleged current racism towards Mizrahi Jews and other Jews of colour), and racism on the part of Israeli Arabs against Israeli Jews.

<snip>

Some elements within the Ashkenazi Israeli Jewish population have also been described as holding discriminatory attitudes towards fellow Jews of other backgrounds, including against Ethiopian Jews, Indian Jews, Mizrahi Jews, Sephardi Jews, etc. Although intermarriage between Ashkenazim and Sephardim/Mizrahim is increasingly common in Israel, and social integration is constantly improving, disparities continue to persist. Ethiopian Jews in particular have faced discrimination from non-Black Jews. It has been suggested that the situation of the Ethiopian Jews as 'becoming white' is similar to that of some European immigrants like Poles and Italians who arrived in the United States in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.[4]

Israel has broad anti-discrimination laws that prohibit discrimination by both government and nongovernment entities on the basis of race, religion, and political beliefs, and prohibits incitement to racism.[5] The Israeli government and many groups within Israel have undertaken efforts to combat racism. Israel is a state-party to the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, and is a signatory of the Convention against Discrimination in Education. Israel's President Reuven Rivlin announced to a meeting of academics in October 2014 that it is finally time for Israel to live up to its promise as a land of equality, time to cure the epidemic of racism. “Israeli society is sick, and it is our duty to treat this disease,” Rivlin stated.[6]

Incidence of racism in Israel

According to Sammy Smooha, a Professor of Sociology at the University of Haifa, the answer to the question of whether racism exists in Israel depends on the definition of racism adopted. If Pierre L. van den Berghe's view is adopted, that the term racism must be restricted to beliefs that a given biological race is superior, then ethnocentrism can be found in Israel, but not racism. According to other definitions, racism is a belief that membership in a certain group, not necessarily genetic or biological, determines the qualities of individuals. By this definition, racist views are present in portions of the Israeli population.[7] Smooha adds that some Arab and Jewish writers make accusations of racism, but they use the term in a very loose way.[7]

A report written by the Israeli Foreign Ministry describes Israel as a multi-ethnic, multicultural, multi-religious, and multi-lingual society, which has a high level of informal segregation patterns. The report states that groups are not separated by official policy, but that Israel has a number of different sectors within the society are somewhat segregated and maintain their strong cultural, religious, ideological, and/or ethnic identity. The report maintains that in spite of the existing social cleavages and economic disparities, the political systems and the courts represent strict legal and civic equality. The Israeli Foreign Ministry describes the country as "Not a melting pot society, but rather more of a mosaic made up of different population groups coexisting in the framework of a democratic state"[8]
,

<snip>

Racism against Arabs on the part of the Israeli state and some Israeli Jews has been identified by critics in personal attitudes, the media, education, immigration rights, housing segregation, and social life. Nearly all such characterizations have been denied by the state of Israel. The Or Commission, set up to explain the October 2000 unrest in many Israeli Arab communities found,

"The state and generations of its government failed in a lack of comprehensive and deep handling of the serious problems created by the existence of a large Arab minority inside the Jewish state. Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory. The establishment did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action in order to allocate state resources in an equal manner. The state did not do enough or try hard enough to create equality for its Arab citizens or to uproot discriminatory or unjust phenomenon."[9]

According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, the Israeli government had done "little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens."[10] The 2005 US Department of State report on Israel wrote: "[T]he government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there were problems in some areas, including... institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country’s Arab citizens."[11] The 2010 U.S. State Department Country Report stated that Israeli law prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, and that government effectively enforced these prohibitions.[12] Former Likud MK and Minister of Defense Moshe Arens has criticized the treatment of minorities in Israel, saying that they did not bear the full obligation of Israeli citizenship, nor were they extended the full privileges of citizenship.[13]

Israel is a state-party to the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination. According to the 1998 Report of the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination found that the Convention "is far from fully implemented in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory, and that the shortfall contributes very significantly to the dangerous escalation of tension in the region.". The report positively noted the measures taken by Israel to prohibit the activities of racist political parties, the amendment of the Equal Opportunity in Employment Law, prohibiting discrimination in the labour sphere on the grounds of national ethnic origin, country of origin, beliefs, political views, political party, affiliation or age, and the Israeli efforts to reduce and eventually eradicate the economic and educational gap between the Jewish majority and the Arab minority.[14]
Polls

The Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI) published reports documenting racism in Israel, and the 2007 report suggested that anti-Arab racism in the country was increasing. One analysis of the report summarized it thus: "Over two-thirds Israeli teens believe Arabs to be less intelligent, uncultured and violent. Over a third of Israeli teens fear Arabs all together....The report becomes even grimmer, citing the ACRI's racism poll, taken in March 2007, in which 50% of Israelis taking part said they would not live in the same building as Arabs, will not befriend, or let their children befriend Arabs and would not let Arabs into their homes."[15] The 2008 report from ACRI says the trend of increasing racism is continuing.[16] An Israeli minister charged the poll as biased and not credible.[17] The Israeli government spokesman responded that the Israeli government was "committed to fighting racism whenever it raises it ugly head and is committed to full equality to all Israeli citizens, irrespective of ethnicity, creed or background, as defined by our declaration of independence".[17] Isi Leibler of the Jerusalem Center for Public affairs argues that Israeli Jews are troubled by "increasingly hostile, even treasonable outbursts by Israeli Arabs against the state" while it is at war with neighboring countries,[18]

Another 2007 report, by the Center Against Racism, also found hostility against Arabs was on the rise. Among its findings it reported that 75%of Israeli Jews don't approve of Arabs and Jews sharing apartment buildings; that over half of Jews wouldn't want to have an Arab boss and that marrying an Arab amounts to "national treason"; and that 55% of the sample thought Arabs should be kept separate from Jews in entertainment sites. Half wanted the Israeli government to encourage Israeli Arabs to emigrate. About 40% believed Arab citizens should have their voting rights removed.[19]

A March 2010 poll by Tel Aviv University found that 49.5% of Israeli Jewish high school students believe Israeli Arabs should not be entitled to the same rights as Jews in Israel. 56% believe Arabs should not be eligible to the Knesset, the Israeli parliament.[20]

An October 2010 poll by the Dahaf polling agency found that 36% of Israeli Jews favor eliminating voting rights for non-Jews.[21] In recent polling (2003–2009) between 42% and 56% of Israelis agreed that "Israeli Arabs suffer from discrimination as opposed to Jewish citizens;" 80% of Israeli Arabs agreed with that statement in 2009.[22]

A 2012 poll revealed widespread support among Israeli Jews for discrimination against Israeli Arabs.[23]

In November 2014, after two Arabs from East Jerusalem perpetrated a massacre in a Jerusalem synagogue by using axes, knives, and a gun, the mayor of Ashkelon, Itamar Shimoni, announced that he planned to fire city construction workers who were Arab. His action brought a storm of protest from politicians as well as the prime minister and president. Police in Ashkelon said they would ignore Shimoni's directive and "obey the law."[24] Nir Barkat, mayor of Jerusalem, said "We cannot discriminate the Arabs," and added "I cannot help but think of where we were 70 years ago in Europe. We cannot generalize as they did to Jews. Here in Jerusalem, we have tens of thousands of Arab workers. We must make a clear distinction."[25] Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said "We should not discriminate against an entire public because of a small minority that is violent and militant." Intelligence Minister Yuval Steinitz said it is "sad that relations between Jews and Arabs will suffer because of some Jihadist fanatical terrorists." He said that on the one hand "one can understand the fear of parents of kindergarten children afraid someone will take a knife one day, as happened in the synagogue in Jerusalem, shout 'Allah Akhbar' and begin to attack." On the other hand, he said, "this is something that should be handled while keeping the generally good relations between Jews and Arabs."[26] In spite of the almost universal condemnation of Shimoni's plan by Israeli politicians, a poll by Channel 10 showed that 58% of Israelis support the discriminatory practice, 32% did not approve and 10% did not know.[27] At the end the mayor changed his mind. Yehiel Lasri, mayor of nearby Ashdod, allegedly targeted Arab workers for extra security checks.[28]
In the media

Some authors, such as David Hirsi and Ayala Emmet, have criticized the Israeli media for portraying Arabs negatively.[29][30] The Israeli media has been described as "racist" in its portrayals of Israeli-Arabs and Palestinians by Israeli-Arab Nabilia Espanioly [31]
Education system
Jewish and Arab teachers at Hand in Hand, a network of bilingual schools that aims to promote coexistence between the Arab and Jewish populations of Israel
See also: Education in Israel

Israel is a signatory of the Convention against Discrimination in Education, and ratified it in 1961. The convention has the status of law in Israeli courts.[32] Israeli Pupils’ Rights Law of 2000 prohibits discrimination of students for sectarian reasons in admission to or expulsion from educational institutions, in establishment of separate educational curricula or holding of separate classes in the same educational institution.[33]
oralloy
 
  -3  
Sun 23 Aug, 2015 05:07 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
oralloy wrote:
[All "the Zionists" do is prevent Palestinians from murdering innocent Israelis.

Oh I think they have done much more than that. In 1967 they cut the Palestinians off from contact with Jordan and held them under military rule with no political rights at all for almost two decades, during which time they expropriated large tracts of Palestinian land for Zionist settlements, without regard for the rights of the previous owners.

Israel just spent 14 years offering the Palestinians an equatable peace based on 1967 borders.

The Palestinians are not attacking because they lack a state. Palestinians attack because they think it is fun to murder children.


georgeob1 wrote:
Palestinian mortality as a result of Israeli retaliation is a good deal greater than the than that of the Israelis. I don't see a lot of moral difference here.

The Palestinian death toll is fake.

But even if the Palestinian death toll were real, the fact that the Palestinians are the aggressors makes all the difference in the world.

If 100 people are trying to murder a single person, it is morally defensible to kill all 100 of them in self defense.


georgeob1 wrote:
There's a great deal of excess in my view) hostility towards Israel in the contemporary western world. I believe that is regrettable. However, it is also a fact that the narrow-minded blanket denial such as you exhibit is a contributing cause.

My defense of the truth is not the cause of anti-Semitic lies.


georgeob1 wrote:
It would be very hard to conclude that Israeli security is today any better than four decades ago or that public sympathy for the continued exostence of a Jewish state is greater now than then. Indeed the opposite is the case. Why do you suppose that is so???

It is because anti-Semitism is hard to uproot.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Sun 23 Aug, 2015 07:40 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:


There's a great deal of excess in my view) hostility towards Israel in the contemporary western world. I believe that is regrettable. However, it is also a fact that the narrow-minded blanket denial such as you exhibit is a contributing cause . It would be very hard to conclude that Israeli security is today any better than four decades ago or that public sympathy for the continued exostence of a Jewish state is greater now than then. Indeed the opposite is the case. Why do you suppose that is so???


That "excess hostility" you talk of as "regrettable" is the excess hostility that led to not just the Holocaust, but the willing assistance, of many of the Anschluss countries, to the Final Solution. As President Bush the younger said, "First time I get fooled, shame on you; the second time I get fooled, shame on me." Now do you want Jews in Israel to be fooled twice? Don't answer. I believe you are looking at the conflict through the prism of someone that subscribes to a more universal world view. So, I won't proselytize to you, even though proselytization is what made your faith so robust.

Foofie
 
  1  
Sun 23 Aug, 2015 07:42 am
@bobsal u1553115,
I don't take reading assignments of long posts. We're not so friendly that you can take up my time.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Sun 23 Aug, 2015 08:49 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
That "excess hostility" you talk of as "regrettable" is the excess hostility that led to not just the Holocaust, but the willing assistance, of many of the Anschluss countries, to the Final Solution.
The invasion and forced incorporation of Austria in March 1938 was called by the Nazis as "Anschluss". (Actually a "Annektierung" [military annexation], but Nazi-propaganda used the more positive word.)

What other countries do you consider to have got this "status"? And what are your sources?
bobsal u1553115
 
  4  
Sun 23 Aug, 2015 11:05 am
@Foofie,
Willful ignorance. Do you get your food pre-chewed, also?

No reply needed. I know you're short for time.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Sun 23 Aug, 2015 11:09 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
And what are your sources?


Where ever he got it, he probably didn't read about it:

Quote:
I don't take reading assignments of long posts. We're not so friendly that you can take up my time.


Maybe he used Cliff Notes?
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Mon 24 Aug, 2015 09:14 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foofie wrote:
That "excess hostility" you talk of as "regrettable" is the excess hostility that led to not just the Holocaust, but the willing assistance, of many of the Anschluss countries, to the Final Solution.
The invasion and forced incorporation of Austria in March 1938 was called by the Nazis as "Anschluss". (Actually a "Annektierung" [military annexation], but Nazi-propaganda used the more positive word.)

What other countries do you consider to have got this "status"? And what are your sources?


I've read too many books written by survivors to remember; however, that was the standard theme regarding the limited SS soldiers needing assistance to round up the Jews in an area/town/village, and hands went up to volunteer. There was one remote area of French Protestants where many seemed to have a contempt for the French Catholics and the invading Germans. That region saved some number of Jews.
0 Replies
 
 

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