1
   

London Banker: "The market has failed, and officialdom is perpetuating that failure."

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 03:16 pm
@Chumly,
That's why I call it an "art" form; in other words, it's not science.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 03:20 pm
@High Seas,
True. No matter how much professional economic education one has, there is no way to tie down anything that has to do with "economics" in any way. One can write a thesis on some economic theory, but there is no way to tie down anything specific about the future of any economy.

A very good case in point is how the US and many countries in Europe are pumping money into their economy, but nobody really knows how the short-term and long-term impact it will result in; they are all guesses.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 03:28 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Cicerone - the essence of science is the repeatable experiment. Mathematics isn't a science, because in some systems BxA isn't the same as AxB. Neither of course is economics - the only doctrinaires in that field are those who know so little they're like the dwellers of Flatland, unable to conceive of higher dimensions.

You may like to read an article by the greatest living international economist (a Canadian, as it happens) on the point Chumly can't seem to grasp:

Quote:
...the rates at which central banks can expand monetary liabilities depend on income elasticities of demand and output elasticities of supply.

http://www.columbia.edu/~ram15/ie/ie-12.html
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 03:31 pm
@High Seas,
Well now, let's duologue on these other assets classes I gather you claim must by default counter the net effect of currency devaluations through debt issuance!

And let's also chat on how you came to assume I believe other assets classes cannot have an effect on the supply demand / valuation / balance as per currencies. I said no such thing in specific fact!

And let's chat on how you figure these other assets classes (which you have yet to divulge) make my underlying assertion that debt issuance devalues currency merit-less. Especially given you claimed the exact opposite; debt issuance values currency!!

And let's chat on the fact that you have tacitly agreed that I am correct, but now that you are pushed into a corner you weakly whine that I must be in "flatland".
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 03:48 pm
@Chumly,
Nowhere have I agreed that you are correct. Nor have I said you actually live in flatland - instead I said, in the politest way possible, you live on a Moebius strip.

You don't know anything about mathematical economics, so stop embarassing yourself - if one dimension suits you, however, see if you can find some other one-dimensional being to "chat" with you. Bye Smile
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 03:59 pm
@High Seas,
But in science, one can repeat specific mathematical models to a specific area of study, even when some values change, because all the variables can be taken into consideration. It just can't be done in economics.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 04:05 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Values and parameters always change except for constants, both in physics and in mathematics; some such relationships exist in economics as well.

If you look at the 2 links to articles I posted you'll see what is meant by that.
Have a good day, Cicerone Smile
Solve et Coagula
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 04:09 pm
@High Seas,
Whateva, guys, I have no MBA, but you know what:
FED = Perfect Fraud, Absolute Corruption and Biggest Scam in Human History

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 04:13 pm
@High Seas,
Perhaps. There may be some economic math models, but they would be very specific to one area of study. I remember studying math models using calculus on inventory control for efficiency in college, but the one weakness was that it could not predict future demand.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 04:18 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Demand is an exogenous variable in that case, so of course inventory models couldn't predict it, that's not their job! Anyway, don't let yourself get confused by Chumly's conflation of "buy" and "sell" debt instruments. Fortunately Bernanke knows the difference, same as I do - to add liquidity to the system you BUY debt:

Quote:
The Fed had already announced plans to buy up to $100 billion of debt directly issued by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the now-nationalised mortgage agencies, and $500 billion of their mortgage-backed securities (MBSs).

http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12818300
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2008 08:15 pm
@High Seas,
From the website: http://wfhummel.cnchost.com/bailout.html


Anatomy of a Government Bailout

On October 3, 2008, Congress authorized government spending of $700 billion to buy up the bad investments of banks and other financial institutions that are clogging the financial system and creating a credit crisis. The Treasury will acquire the necessary funds through the sale of new securities to the public. However it cannot sell that much at one time without causing interest rates to soar.

Assume therefore that it sells $50 billion worth, and then uses the proceeds to buy that amount of the bad investments. By repeating this until it has spent the full $700 billion, the maximum amount of loanable funds it would draw from the private sector at any one time would be a manageable $50 billion.

Later the Treasury will reverse the sequence, incrementally selling those investments back to the public, and using the proceeds to buy Treasuries in the open market. If those investments sell at the price paid by the Treasury, there would be no net fiscal imbalance on completion of the bailout.

But suppose the Treasury could recover only $200 billion on the sale, and thus leave $500 billion worth of Treasuries in the hands of the private sector. That would be the net increase in Federal debt due to the bailout.

Who wins and who loses in that case? The winners are those who sold their bad investments to the Treasury for more than they were worth in the open market. Even though they probably lost relative to what they originally paid for them, their net worth would improve relative to what it was when they sold them.

And the losers? Contrary to conventional wisdom, in the long run there are none. The notion that the bailout is at taxpayer expense is an illusion. In reality, the bailout is paid for with newly issued Treasury securities, not taxpayer money. The two are not the same.

Consider the following example, all amounts in billions of dollars:

For simplicity we will assume a balanced budget to start with:

national income = 10,000 (taxable part)

government debt = 4,000 (held by the public)

interest on the debt = 200 (based on 5% average rate)

other government spending = 1,800

total government spending = 2,000

total tax revenues = 2,000

Now suppose the bailout adds 500 to the debt, and to keep the budget in balance the government increases the tax rate by 0.25% on national income. Other things equal, the result is::

national income = 10,025

government debt = 4,500

interest on the debt = 225

other government spending = 1,800 (unchanged)

total government spending = 2,025

total tax revenues = 2,025

We can now make the following observations:

1. The new Treasury securities issued in the bailout increase the net financial wealth of the private sector by $500 billion.

2. The interest payments and tax revenues increase equally while the amount of other government spending remains unchanged. The bailout therefore need have no impact on existing government programs.

3. Since the increase in taxes is covered in the aggregate by the additional interest payments, the base money supply of the private sector remains unchanged.

4. If the economy grows in nominal terms by 0.25%, tax revenues would increase by 0.25% and there would be no need for a tax rate increase to maintain a balanced budget.

5. The nominal growth rate of the economy averages about 5%, comprised of 2% real and 3% inflation. Thus tax revenues over the long term will increase due to economic growth far more than what is needed to support interest payments on the additional debt.

6. If the interest rate on Treasuries remains unchanged, maturing securities can be rolled over indefinitely without additional taxes regardless of the debt, and without affecting individual financial wealth.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2008 10:15 pm
@Chumly,
Quote:
Out of interest (pun) in Canada there is no Federal watchdog like the SEC for such concerns! So in Canada we are at greater risk as there are only Provincial watchdogs and they have considerably less power that your SEC.


Chumly, In Canada, the provinces don't have the constitutional authority to deal with banking, money, ... .
0 Replies
 
 

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