8 year old to be tried as "adult"

I agree that the reason there is hope for this child is because he is a child and not an adult. It's well documented that young boys do not understand consequences even when they understand right from wrong. It's why most crimes are committed by young men. They know they are doing something wrong, they just don't think there might be a personal price to pay. I think the best proof of hope for this child are the refugees from the wars in Sudan. Many young Sudanese boys were given guns and taught to be killers. Once they were removed from the war environment they learned to lead normal lives and do so to this day.

There's no CURE for being a psychopath. It's like Down syndrome, only most people would fifty times rather have a kid with Down syndrome. Most psychopaths spend their lives as con-men , minor criminals of one stripe or other, or people living on the edge of what's acceptable one way or another. Hare said the two best places to study them were a prison system or a stock exchange. He didn't try to guess as to what the percentages were on stock exchanges; he said that something like 20% of the general population of a prison were psychopaths and more like 50% of violent criminals.

Even brain-wave patterns are different. Hare claims he and several students once had a paper rejected by a refereed science journal because an editor did not believe that a group of electroencephalogram charts included in the paper were from humans; that's right, they were from psychopaths.

I think it is most certainly possible that events during gestation have an impact on a fetus and that we don't fully understand.

The genetic roots of mental illness are a bigger stretch for me.

I was just reading an interview with Hare about his book "Sharks in Suits" that is about white color psychopaths. Interesting stuff. I've always thought of psychpaths as people who kill other people but it seems they are more common than that. Fascinating. I intend to read more.

The one other book I recommend as a basis for how the human mind works is Julian Jaynes' "Origin of Consciousness" and I believe there is a connection between Jaynes' thesis and what Hare is talking about.

The thing which prevents you or me being psychopaths is an inborn modeling ability of some sort which Jaynes describes as an ability to "narrate", or compute logical sequences of events and also construct psychic models of other people and their reactions; this is missing in psychopaths.

Hare notes that psychopaths have problems in both areas: empathizing with other people, and computing logical sequences of events and consequences.

He says in particular that a psychopath will go on doing stupid **** after you or I would have thought better of it and stopped..

I am 15. If I committed murder, it would be in full knowledge of what I was doing and the consequences of such. I am no less aware than any adult.

I would put the cut off point at around 12 or 13. Above that, teenagers have enough brain capacity to know exactly what they are doing.

Certainly it is disturbing that an 8 year old would commit murder. It is a poor reflection of our "civilised" society.

All 15 year olds think they're adults but they're not and neither are you. I thought I was an adult when I was 15 too. I respect where you're coming from.

There are physiolocial differences in the brains of adults and teenagers.

Sadly, the only way to discover the difference is to actually become an adult.

Fair enough, but what if I presented it from a different perspective? I know my previous comment must have sounded naive.

If you have a teenager in your family, look at them and ask yourself whether, if they committed murder, they would know what they were doing?

We get into a sticky business here, because I am anticipating that someone will say, "If the teenager committed murder, then they would have a distorted and clouded view of the situation, and so would not have full comprehension of what they were doing." (Did I read your mind?) But then again, are not the majority of murderers in this state of mind? I am guessing that most murders are committed, either in rage, or under the impression that murder is the right thing to do.

No, you did not read my mind at all.

I believe even this kid new what he was doing and he knew that it was wrong.

I read recently that the kid came home and found them both dead already. Maybe he's innocent!

Apparantly he has confessed.

In that case, what is your basis for trial as an adult, apart from being an adult?

aperson, Should an 8 year old be allowed to vote, join the army, buy alcohol, drive a car, have sex, enter into a legal contract? I think not. They do not have the judgement to do so. It's not just a matter of knowing right from wrong, it's the deeper issue of having the mental judgement to know how these things will effect your life. An 8 year old does not understand what the final consequences of shooting someone can be. This part of brain development is fairly well documented and it's what will probably lead to him being tried as a minor.

I'm not saying that an 8 year old should be tried as an adult - my question to boomerang was asking clarification of his position - but I am saying that a 15 year old should be tried as an adult. A 15 year old certainly does understand what the final consequences of shooting someone can be. Also, I don't think the allowance to do all those other things are congruent with the ability to understand the consequences of shooting someone.

Child and even teen brains do not have their full reasoning capacity online, nor do they have the same abilities as adult brains to inhibit behaviour. Full adult brain capacity is reached at about 25.

In most countries there is an age of criminal responsibility (in Oz it is 10) after which a juvenile may face legal consequences for criminal behaviour, but in western countries, at least, they are dealt with in the juvenile justice system, which is supposed to take into account their developmental stage, their circumstances, the possibilities for rehabilitation, as well as public safety, punishment and deterrence.

It is possible for children to know that something is wrong, but this does not mean that we are right to expect the same level of responsibility and behavioural control that we expect of an adult.

Gunga or someone is speaking with authority about "psychopaths", as though it is known that it is a physically based condition present at birth.

We know no such thing.

There IS likely to be some genetic influence....but people who point to brain scans showing certain similarities between "psychpaths" as being evidence that this is a purely physical condition ignore the fact that human brains are shaped profoundly by experience...especially experience in the first three years of life.

Seeing something on a brain scan in people with mental health problems is not conclusive evidence that psycho-social circumstances have not had a profound effect on that brain.

We know nothing about this child's circumstances nor what this child was exposed to.

Whatever the facts are, the child is still a child and does not, while knowing his acts were wrong, mean that he should be judged as though he had the mental capacity of an adult.

Clearly some very major intervention is required....but trying a child as an adult ought not to be part of such an intervention.

You may have the same awareness as an adult...but your capacity to inhibit behaviour and reflect upon and fully comprehend your own mental states and judge the effects of your possible actions is not fully developed. In fact, in some ways, teenagers often have less capacity to manage their behaviour than 12 year olds, because their brains are in such a state of flux, and their hormones can be sending them nuts.

15 year olds who commit heinous crimes are certainly in a difficult area....I have known a few to be tried as adults in my state, for murder and such...but please remember we do not commit judicial murder in our countries, aperson. Teenagers can be killed in the US if tried as adults...the stakes are less high in our countries.

Often the decision as to whether to try as an adult almost seems to be made by consulting how much community outrage is being expressed in the media in my experience.

Juveniles tried as adults usually serve the portion of their sentence for which they are juveniles in a juvenile institution, and are moved to an adult prison upon reaching adulthood, at least in Australia.

As you can imagine, growing up in prison means you leave prison with grossly distorted ideas and behaviour, generally....prison for juveniles really needs to be a last resort.


This little kid needs very skilled and exhaustive assessment.

Hmmmmmmmm ok I sumbit. The reason being that you have made the clear distinction that teenagers don't have the same capacity to inhibit behaviour, which is definitely true. Other people have just said that we're stupider, or that we don't know right from wrong.

In some areas, you are likely approaching your peak (Robert Gentel can quote you number and verse on this, because he has, at me....but I think very young adults are at a peak re some maths/physics/computer related tasks).

You're as bright as you'll ever be, but the handling routines aren't at their best.

One area of mine that definitely needs work is keeping on task. I am in exam leave, and should be studying, but somehow I always keep finding distractions. And yes, a2k is one of them.

I'm undecided about that mathematical peaking business, but it certainly seems to fit with my experience. There are five of us in a doubly accelerated maths class, and it is quite obvious that while our teacher, and even the freshly trained maths tutor, is more knowledgeable than us, we are quicker and sharper. (Excuse the grasshopper arrogance; seriously, it's not intentional. It just happens.)

On the other hand, the common teaching-bashing idiom comes to mind ("Those that can..."), and we can't say how bright they when they were our age, relative to us. And then there's the "the next generation is smarter" argument (which I don't support, by the way).

I am skeptical of all of this negative generalizing.

I suspect that a 15 year old person put up the white flag too soon,
and without sufficient justification, but in the feebleness of old age
after too exhausting a day, I lack sufficient energy
to voice specific doubts at the moment.



As a better man than I once said:
" I shall return. "




David

I am not sure re the qualitiess that peak in your age-group, cos it ain't my field.

But, I wouldn't be surprised if you were quicker in some areas than your teachers.


Re the distractions: I still do the distraction thing, and I am 55.

It may be a personality thing. Sigh.