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8 year old to be tried as "adult"

 
 
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 11:25 am
Okay, maybe not. I certainly hope the judge won't agree that this kid is an adult. He did something horrible but he is still just a kid.

I don't think anyone under the age of 18 should ever be tried as an adult. I'm not entirely convinced that people under 21 should be tried as adults.

What do you think?

Quote:
ST. JOHNS, Arizona (AP) -- An 8-year-old boy is scheduled in court Monday to face two counts of premeditated murder in the shooting death of his father and a friend.


Vincent Romero and Timothy Romans were found dead last week in Romero's home in St. Johns, Arizona.

The hearing comes on the same day mourners were to gather for a funeral.

Police say the boy, a third-grader, confessed to planning and carrying out the shooting deaths of his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and a co-worker who rented a room from him.

The men were found dead inside Romero's home northeast of Phoenix on Wednesday.

Authorities had no motive for the shootings.

"That's what's puzzling to us," Police Chief Roy Melnick said Monday on NBC's "Today" show. "There's no record of any problems in school, no reported abuse."

Romero came from a family of hunters and wanted to make sure the boy wasn't afraid of guns, said the Rev. John Paul Sauter of St. Johns Catholic Church. He said the father taught his son how to use a rifle to kill prairie dogs.


St. Johns police are hoping a judge will agree to try the boy as an adult, but they admit it's unlikely.

The boy's attorney says police questioned his client without representation from a parent or attorney and didn't advise the child of his rights.

The killings took place in the St. Johns, a town of about 4,000 people located roughly 170 miles northeast of Phoenix.


Romero was well-liked and people here are likely to turn out in droves for his funeral.

"Everybody here is heart-broken," Melnick said. "We are a close-knit community. A lot of friends and neighbors have pulled together
 
mismi
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 11:49 am
@boomerang,
It's hard to believe that an 8 year old does not have something wrong with them if they are already pre-meditating murder. No, I do not believe that is an age to be tried as an adult....though I am a little conflicted about when that should be...seems to me there is an age of accountability. If someone is wise enough to be trusted in a car and to make good decisions there, shouldn't they be elsewhere? Same thing as voting - I don't know anything except that it is heartbreaking that one so young has done something so horrible and the stigma that will be attached there the rest of his life. Seems like something went wrong somewhere and it may be unfair of me - but I tend to think it is with the Dad...would be intersted to know what the family history is like.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 12:07 pm
@mismi,
There is a little clip from his police interview posted at the link below. You can hear just what a little kid this is.

http://www.azfamily.com/yahoo_rss/stories/phoenix-local-news-110708-double-murder2.1c254e61a.html
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 12:08 pm
@boomerang,

I absolutely disagree with u.

I am an ex-8 year old and I distinctly remember life at that age.
If I had plotted a murder (as this confessed killer did),
I certainly woud have clearly understood what I was doing;
with equal clarity as now, well over half a century later.

I remember an incident when my cousin was home from military service.
He had a lot of silver coins and he failed to secure them overnight.
I was 5 years old. I stole them and got caught a few hours later.
My mother and his mother were saying that I did not know what I had done;
that I coud not understand. I was relieved, and quietly laffing at them
for their naive foolishness. I was obviously guilty.
I had a low opinion of their intelligence on that occasion.
I was very surprized that thay coud be so dum.

At around that age and all other ages, the kids in the neighborhood
occasionally discussed infamous criminals; John Dillenger, Baby Face Nelson, etc.
We fully understood what their crimes were
and expressed this understanding in our conversations.
Stealing and murdering were very simple; not at all difficult to understand.






8 years later, I considered stealing something else.
I remember, I was walking toward a bus stop, early one morning.
Then, I had an epiphany of the loathsomeness of larceny; (it was ugly),
whereupon I abandoned my nefarious plot. That stayed with me.






David
0 Replies
 
mismi
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 12:12 pm
@boomerang,
So the little boy says he just found them that way...hmmm. He is the same age as my boys...I cannot imagine.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 12:35 pm
@mismi,
Quote:

So the little boy says he just found them that way

Yeah; a common assertion among people of all ages.
mismi
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 12:49 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
I have to agree that I know when I did right and wrong when I was a child. I knew when I got away with it as well. I know that my boys know when they are doing wrong, but I cannot imagine why an 8 year old feels the need to kill someone. To me there has to be something wrong in his thinking or he is desperate to get out of a situation he finds unbearable. Either way - thought processes are skewed in my opinion...not that it counts for much.

I guess in my thinking I am questioning if this child was indeed that shrewd to think he could get away with killing his father and friend, whether he should he be charged as an adult. Would they incarcerate him with other adult criminals and has it come to the point now where it has to be done in order to set an example? My motherly thinking is to protect this child and try to get behind why at such a young age he felt compelled to do this and to keep him secluded away from the criminals that my take advantage of him and teach him other horrible things. There is a possibility at correction and remedy at such a young age don't you think?
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 12:54 pm
@boomerang,
Definitely he should not be tried as an adult. I question whether he could actually have done it.
mismi
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 12:56 pm
@FreeDuck,
I would hope not...my thoughts are to protect him from the criminal system and correct the thinking that has caused this...

my ultimate hope is that he did not and could not have done this....I wonder what led them to jump so quickly to that conclusion though?
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 01:05 pm
He has since confessed to killing them, mismi.

My son is almost 8. He knows right from wrong. He is not an adult.

Knowing right from wrong does not make you an adult any more that knowing 2+2=4 makes you a mathmatician.

The only thing that I've read that tries to offer a motive is that the dad had grounded the boy from trick or treating because of a bad report card.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 01:12 pm
I don't believe that an 8 year old is capable of understanding the full impact of death. And so I don't think he should be tried as an adult.

OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 01:16 pm
@mismi,
Quote:

I cannot imagine why an 8 year old feels the need to kill someone.

Its the same as if he were 30 years older; no reason,
except self defense is such a need.
Being a murderer is NOT a function of age.
(Admittedly, a baby too young to walk or talk is not capable
of forming criminal intent in his mind; thereafter, he IS.)



Quote:
To me there has to be something wrong in his thinking

I believe that is undisputed as to ALL murderers.







Quote:

or he is desperate to get out of a situation he finds unbearable.

or he did it just for the hell of it; possibly petty vengeance









Quote:

Either way - thought processes are skewed in my opinion...
not that it counts for much.

A man of ANY age, including 8,
shud be judged by his conduct,
not by what he chooses to think about.







Quote:

I guess in my thinking I am questioning if this child was indeed that shrewd
to think he could get away with killing his father and friend,
whether he should he be charged as an adult.

Assuming that he is guilty (as he apparently confessed)
he employed exculpatatory denial to get away with it.

Does a kid REALLY believe that the dog ate his homework ??








Quote:

Would they incarcerate him with other adult criminals and has it
come to the point now where it has to be done in order to set an example?

No.






Quote:

There is a possibility at correction and remedy at such a young age don't you think?

No; not from government; that has been eminently futile.
On seldom occasions, criminals have gotten epiphanies
which cause them to forsake evil.





David
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 01:24 pm
Quote:
Six to Nine Years
Child's Perception: Child begins to understand the finality of death; some do and some may not.

Sees death as a taker or spirit that comes and gets you
Fear that death is contagious and other loved ones will "catch it" and die too
Fascinated with issues of mutilation; very curious about what body looks like
Connects death with violence and may ask, "who killed him?"
3 categories of people. who die: Elderly, handicapped, klutzes
Asks concrete questions
Guilt - blames self for death
May worry how the deceased can eat, breathe, etc.
Continues to have difficulty expressing feelings verbally
Increased aggression
Defends against feeling helpless
Somatic symptoms
School phobia (especially if single parent)
Continues to have difficulty comprehending abstractions such as heaven, spirituality


http://www.hospicenet.org/html/understand.html
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 01:26 pm

ERRATUM:

Assuming that he is guilty (as he apparently confessed)
he employed exculpatatory denial to get away with it.

Shoud be:
Assuming that he is guilty (as he apparently confessed)
he employed exculpatory denial to get away with it.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 01:27 pm
Also this....

Quote:
A pioneering study by the Hungarian psychologist Maria Nagy, first published in 1948, found a relationship between age and the comprehension of death. Nagy described three stages (the ages are approximate, as individual differences can be noted):

• Stage 1 (ages three to five): Death is a faded continuation of life. The dead are less alive"similar to being very sleepy. The dead might or might not wake up after a while.
• Stage 2 (ages five to nine): Death is final. The dead stay dead. Some children at this level of mental development pictured death in the form of a person: usually a clown, shadowy death-man, or skeletal figure. There is the possibility of escaping from death if one is clever or lucky.
• Stage 3 (ages nine and thereafter): Death is not only final, but it is also inevitable, universal, and personal. Everybody dies, whether mouse or elephant, stranger or parent. No matter how good or clever or lucky, every boy and girl will eventually die, too.


So basically what this means is that he may or may not fully understand what he's done.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 01:36 pm
@Bella Dea,
Quote:

I don't believe that an 8 year old is capable of understanding
the full impact of death. And so I don't think he should be tried as an adult.

Baloney !

I have seen those children visiting mortuaries.
Thay r perfectly aware of what is in the box.

I remember being very distressed at the death of my grandmother
when I was 6; demanding, shouting at the police
that thay do not take the body anywhere near me.
I was in a state of alarm and discomfiture
and ACUTELY aware of the fine details of the situation.
I was thoroughly grossed out; very aversive.

Were u DIFFERENT at that age, that U did not understand ?





David
NickFun
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 01:45 pm
I'll betcha he leaned that "killing is good" from all those GI Joe commercials! We should sue GI Joe and put the makers of that doll in prison for influencing young minds!
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 01:52 pm
@NickFun,
That was the end of Socrates, right ?
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 01:55 pm
I'm pretty sure he knew that killing someone is wrong. I'll bet he knows that dead is dead -- especially if he had been hunting with his dad as the article suggests.

But knowing right from wrong is not the determination of adulthood.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 01:59 pm
@boomerang,
The question is not whether he is a legal adult.
It is whether to apply the laws of adult criminal trials to his trial.
 

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