spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 01:50 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You have no stance on human rights ci. You just set those at where you feel like setting them at any given time and to fit any given mood you happen to be in probably depending upon the last piece of propaganda you read.

You'll be agitating for uni-sex toilets next. The butch dykes allowed in the gents and the catchers in the ladies. Experience teaches that whatever concession is made it will be followed by publicity seeking pushers on the envelope. It's a bloody violation of my human rights that I'm banned from the "trying on" cubicles in lingerie shops.

You are trying to turn society into some sort of dishevelled joke for no other reason than that of indulging your wandering and confused whims and being unable to see past the end of your nose.

What about the human rights of kids these people then demand the right to adopt. I shudder to think of the fate of a kid in a school who is in a homosexual household. Then it will be special schools. And no DH Lawrence or Mailer in literature lesons. And much else.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 01:57 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
You are of course free to make your own choices in life, but you cannot claim to be a supporter of freedom, while limiting the rights of others to make their own choices, which really don't affect you or the greater society in any way


Clearly you have not lived enough to see how excessive individual choice is oppressive. Adding more possible choices for individuals may or may not be in the individuals best interest, may or may not be in the collectives best interest. You need to argue for more choice on its merits, concluding that a particular option expands individual choice does not automatically win the logical argument.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 02:03 pm
@spendius,
spendi, The whole world are societies made up of "dishevelled jokes." I've visited many a uni-sex toilets around this world, and even some in Europe. I don't mind as long as they have good beer, and that's most places on the planet - even in third world countries.

The kids themselves rarely demand anything because they haven't learned how to react to their environment. Most teenagers become rable rousers, because they're not sure how to handle adolescence (hair growing in their groin and face). They also experience voice changes from squeeks to baratones.

The end of my nose probably have seen more than 95% who call themselves homo sapiens, and I've enjoyed every minute of it.
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 02:05 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

You have no stance on human rights ci. You just set those at where you feel like setting them at any given time and to fit any given mood you happen to be in probably depending upon the last piece of propaganda you read.

You'll be agitating for uni-sex toilets next. The butch dykes allowed in the gents and the catchers in the ladies. Experience teaches that whatever concession is made it will be followed by publicity seeking pushers on the envelope. It's a bloody violation of my human rights that I'm banned from the "trying on" cubicles in lingerie shops.

You are trying to turn society into some sort of dishevelled joke for no other reason than that of indulging your wandering and confused whims and being unable to see past the end of your nose.

What about the human rights of kids these people then demand the right to adopt. I shudder to think of the fate of a kid in a school who is in a homosexual household. Then it will be special schools. And no DH Lawrence or Mailer in literature lesons. And much else.




Your entire post reeks with the smell of raunchy bigotry. You are the one who is blindly meandering through life with your narrow-minded head stuffed full of stereotypical animus toward a class of individuals. No one is required to indulge your unjustifiable hate and irrational "the sky is falling" propaganda.
lmur
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 02:11 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

spendi, The whole world are societies made up of "dishevelled jokes." I've visited many a uni-sex toilets around this world, and even some in Europe. I don't mind as long as they have good beer, and that's most places on the planet - even in third world countries.

The kids themselves rarely demand anything because they haven't learned how to react to their environment. Most teenagers become rable rousers, because they're not sure how to handle adolescence (hair growing in their groin and face). They also experience voice changes from squeeks to baratones.

The end of my nose probably have seen more than 95% who call themselves homo sapiens, and I've enjoyed every minute of it.


My goodness <wipes tears from eyes>
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 02:11 pm
@hawkeye10,
No, humanity is not a collective, otherwise we'd all think alike, speak alike, cook alike, worship alike, vote alike, our laws would all be alike, which, in this case is not true -- there are already countries where gay marriage is legal and several others where civil partnerships are legal (there are many states in the US who haven't even allow that). There are many nations who are seriously considering changing the law to allow civil partnerships or gay marriage. The tyranny of the majority (screw your collective -- you're either a communist or Borg) has to have a good reason to deny individual rights, otherwise the leaders, legislatures and judiciary has to step in. What is this "wayward individual" crap? Judged by who? You? If you discount communist China, Muslim nations, and other entities who have a political or religious agenda, most of the world is not unfavorable to gay marriage. If you want a guarantee that gay marriage won't happen here, move to China or Iran. If you believe the US is politically a total free society, you're in fantasyland. Labeling the gay and lesbian movement as anarchist is not only stupid, it's the nonsense you supposedly abhor. No, what you are suggesting is a despotism with you as the ruler.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 02:18 pm
@Debra Law,
Quote:
Your entire post reeks with the smell of raunchy bigotry. You are the one who is blindly meandering through life with your narrow-minded head stuffed full of stereotypical animus toward a class of individuals. No one is required to indulge your unjustifiable hate and irrational "the sky is falling" propaganda.


Luckily not everyone is as close minded as you are, some people can take in opposing arguments and consider them. Applying a morally derisive label to an argument is not grounds for dismissal. Sometimes that which we morally despise happens to be the truth.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 02:21 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:

Clearly you have not lived enough to see how excessive individual choice is oppressive.


How is excessive original choice oppressive? Specifically.

Cycloptichorn
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 02:26 pm
@Lightwizard,
Quote:
Labeling the gay and lesbian movement as anarchist is not only stupid, it's the nonsense you supposedly abhor.


I said that the human rights movement has been taken over by anarchists, not the gay rights movement. The gay rights movement latches on the the human rights movement because they will employ any tool that they think will help them to get what they want. I am saying that the gay claims that refusal to allow them marriage is a violation of their human rights should not advance their argument, because the entire human rights movement has gone sour and no longer promotes the best interests of humanity, or individuals. The human rights seal of approval is worthless so far as I am concerned.
Lightwizard
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 02:34 pm
@hawkeye10,
Why do you think denying marriage to gays and lesbians is a human right, then? You state your collective, which you make yourself an integral part, is humanity. Human rights "seal of approval" is what? Is this an entity in your erroneous thinking like Good Housekeeping? Thinking is and speaking or writing about it is a human right for that matter. What other human rights are being diligently fought right how? Those in your collective communist China? China Airlines serves some of the best food -- I think you should seek asylum there and book a flight right now.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 02:34 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
How is excessive original choice oppressive? Specifically.


it sucks up time and energy best suited for other endeavours, and it gives decision making power to those who don't have the experience or education to know what is best. When a parent looks after a child and makes the big choices for them the child is comforted, and feels safe enough to explore life with the knowledge that if they drift towards danger the parents will step in. In the same way, when the individual knows that the collective knowledge and wisdom learned over generations has been employed to frame a society, the choices, they feel free to explore the available choices with the knowledge that none of them will bring them great harm.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 03:03 pm

Bill Shireman

President and CEO of the Future 500
Posted April 5, 2009 | 03:57 PM (EST)

The Radical Middle Wins in Iowa -- Gay Marriage and the Power of Progressive Centrism



The most inspiring and lasting social progress happens when left and right citizens stop battling each other over their mutual prejudices, and start listening, learning, and acting in alignment.

That's what happened Thursday in Iowa, when the power of the progressive middle triumphed in the landmark decision of the state Supreme Court that held the gay marriage ban unconstitutional.

Justice Mark S. Cady, appointed by a conservative Republican governor, wrote in the majority opinion that "the constitutional principle of equal protection" forbids the "exclusion of a class of Iowans from civil marriage."

The ruling "does not disrespect or denigrate the religious views of many Iowans who may strongly believe in marriage as a dual-gender union," Cady wrote. But the majority must nonetheless provide equal protection. "We are not permitted to do less and would damage our constitution immeasurably by trying to do more."

That's an opinion I find inspiring. But more, it provides a lesson to progressives who often disregard the powerful role that conservatives and Republicans often play in advancing progressive causes.

I am a Progressive Centrist - some call us "post-partisans," "transpartisans," members of the "radical center" or the "radical middle." We embrace ideas from both the right and left, to advance progressive ends.

That doesn't mean we accept the caricatures that the terms "liberal" and "conservative" have become. These terms have largely lost their historical meaning. Many who call themselves "conservatives" would find it hard to support a latter-day Lincoln who wanted to emancipate today's most repressed minorities, or a modern Teddy Roosevelt who wanted to tax carbon to protect the climate. Many who call themselves "liberal" believe big government will somehow put a halt to the overreaching power of corporations, and would place major sectors of the economy under government control.

Those aren't positions that appeal to me. As a transpartisan, I find myself uncontrollably attracted to, and repulsed by, both the Democratic and Republican Parties. Because my political heroes are Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, and Dwight Eisenhower, I am a registered Republican - a fact few understand, which I like. But the power of their ideas, combined with their strategic use of political power at just the right moment, enabled them to break through longstanding barriers and decisively advance human liberty, build the conservation movement, and limit the undue concentration of power, whether held by government, business, or the military.

That I could be a pro-Obama Republican, a pro-business Progressive, and a free market environmentalist bends some people's minds. But I no longer find comfort in any single ideology. Nor do I demonize those with whom I disagree. In fact, I may be something of a sado-politicist: I am drawn to those I disagree with. I find that, once I understand them, I can work with them, often to advance mutual ends.

That is a source of power few progressives use. For example, many gay rights activists had written off Iowa, feeling they could never win in a corn belt state where many are confused by the whole idea of gay marriage. But the Iowa court's decision is likely to stand, in large part because it does not demand that people like or understand gay marriage. It simply says that the people cannot deny equal protection to any group simply because they don't understand them or embrace their culture.

Remember that in California, new liberal voters drawn to the polls by Barack Obama provided the margin that defeated gay marriage. You can't always trust liberals to support freedom - nor conservatives to oppose it - for groups they don't understand.

The Iowa decision illustrates that progress is possible when principled people on the left and right set aside their cultural preferences, and examine their beliefs at a deeper level. When that happens, the left and right find wisdom in each other's core beliefs, and can come together.

As a Progressive, I want to educate children, improve health care, liberate the oppressed, grow green jobs, renew the economy, and save the planet from nuclear or climate disasters - preferably both. As a centrist, I know that we can't achieve any of those objectives - not a single one - if we limit ourselves to the tools of either the left or right. We need both. Finally, as a Republican, I believe that among the essential tools of the progressive movement are individual liberty, limited government, and free markets - with environmental and social costs internalized when practical.

Essential? Yes. Radical centrists acknowledge that good ideas come from both the left and right. The most progress is possible, however, when left and right come together. Radical center policy ideas are hatched by thinkers like authors Michael Lind and Ted Halstead (http://www.newamerica.net/people/ted_halstead), journalist Mark Satin (http://www.radicalmiddle.com/editor.htm), and philosopher Ken Wilber (http://www.integralworld.net/wilpert0.html). They are developed at think tanks like the Progressive Policy Institute (http://www.ppionline.org) and the New America Foundation (http://www.newamerica.net) , and applied to specific needs by groups like the U.S. Climate Task Force (http://www.climatetaskforce.org) and magazines like The New Physician (http://www.amsa.org/tnp). People often stumble upon them at web-based newsletters like the Radical Middle (http://www.radicalmiddle.com), debate them in blogs like economist Robert Shapiro's (http://ndnblog.org/blog/109), and advance them through political organizations like NDN (http://www.ndn.org), New Policy Institute (http://www.newpolicyinstitute.org) and many more. (See especially http://www.radicalmiddle.com/organizations.htm)

The radical center brings together the feminine and masculine of American politics - the heart and the head, the purpose and the power, the meaning and the means. Liberal compassion is the heart of American politics - it tells us what we want to be. Conservative discipline, based on scientific rationalism, is the means of American politics - it tells us how to get there. When progressive centrists unite the "what" and the "how," they gain the power to birth new ideas, and grow them to fruition.

We can't achieve the liberal goal of health care for all, for example, if we don't apply the conservative principle of fiscal responsibility, and drive down today's costs. We can't create green jobs, without green profits to pay for them. We can't stop global warming, if we don't build an information based and clean tech economy to replace our consumptive industrial one.

Radicals of the far left and right tend to violate their own principles, to advance their cultural preferences. Many social conservatives want to expand the power of government, to watch and regulate our private acts in our bedrooms. Many neoconservatives lost all sense of fiscal responsibility in advancing off-the-books wars and supporting tax cuts while leaving spending untouched.

Instead of looking at how they are violating their own deeper principles, these ideologues demonize those on the other extreme. Listen to right-wing talk radio, and you'll hear an endless stream of ratings-boosting insinuations that demonize the left as the source of all the nation's ills. Go to a left-wing political event, and you'll hear the same about the right. Try to get extremists to talk to one another, and they make excuses: There's no point. They'll never change. They're all too extreme. In reality, they're terrified that if they talk to people who challenge their assumptions, they might have to change their minds. They like living their simple, black-and-white, ineffective political lives. It enables them to be self-righteous, win the "friendship" of other martyrs, and do down to glorious political defeat, together, forever.

Instead of talking with their nemeses, liberal ideologues seem to think, if only those hard-headed Republicans could be completely vanquished, the people would finally triumph, teachers would be rich, students brilliant, health care free, and the environment saved. Conservative true-believers seem to believe, if only those soft-hearted Democrats were forever defeated, illegal immigrants would vanish, criminals would be jailed, and we'd have government spending under control.

The truth is, progressives need soft hearts to tell us what's wrong, and hard heads to tell us how to make it right. That is why progressive centrism is more than simply a way to defeat social conservatism. It is a way to understand social conservatism, and embrace its wisdom. The opponents of gay marriage, after all, have a point, and we need to honor it. They think every family needs both a masculine and a feminine influence.

They're right. Where they are wrong, however, is in thinking that requires a man and a woman. Every healthy couple I know - straight or gay - has both a masculine and feminine side. In my marriage, I play the masculine role 55% of the time, and my wife plays it 45% of the time. Or - hmm - it may be the other way around. Either way, our family could not function without both. Children thrive when they see, and learn to express, both their masculine and feminine qualities. They suffer when they are wholly controlled in a too-masculine family culture, or left to their whims by a too-deferential feminine one.

Die-hard liberals and conservatives are like a man who stands fixed on one foot, and steps only with the other. Turning only right, or only left, they are doomed to spend their political lives walking around in circles, blaming others when they get nowhere.

Progressive centrists follow a different path. They step with their left foot, and then their right, and move society forward.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 03:04 pm
@Lightwizard,
Quote:
Why do you think denying marriage to gays and lesbians is a human right, then?


I have not said that it is, I have not made up my mind about gay marriage. However, the collective has the right to deny gays marriage if it is in the best interests of humanity to do so. If granting gays marriage weakens the institution of marriage then it should not be allowed. If granting gays marriage causes gender confusion it should not be allowed. If the identities of 'Husband" and "wife" are necessary and must be maintained then gay marriage should not be allowed, because once we allow gay marriage these identities will have to be discarded.

Can family units hold together when families can be formed by anyone who wants to think that they are a family? Families require glue to hold them together, they have already been weakened by easy marriage and easy divorce, not to mention economic forces that work against family bonds. When is enough enough?

I am not gay, but I am a stakeholder in this collective, and my best interests count no less than the best interest of a gay person. I refuse to allow my best interests to be run over by every whack job out there without a fight. I don't know what we should do about gay desires, so I ask questions, I demand those who want something from this collective show good cause for the change that they want. "I want and you can't tell me no" does not cut the mustard.


0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 03:10 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
How is excessive original choice oppressive? Specifically.


it sucks up time and energy best suited for other endeavours, and it gives decision making power to those who don't have the experience or education to know what is best. When a parent looks after a child and makes the big choices for them the child is comforted, and feels safe enough to explore life with the knowledge that if they drift towards danger the parents will step in. In the same way, when the individual knows that the collective knowledge and wisdom learned over generations has been employed to frame a society, the choices, they feel free to explore the available choices with the knowledge that none of them will bring them great harm.


But, we're not talking about children, we are talking about adults; people perfectly capable of making their own decisions without looking to either you or the 'collective' for judgment or advice.

Your credo seems to put 'collective wisdom,' as if there were such a thing, at a higher level of importance than personal freedom. This is such a foolish concept, with so many logical holes in it, that I doubt you actually believe this is true, but instead are casting about for a logical way to express your distaste for gay marriage and by extension gays themselves.

Cycloptichorn
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 03:20 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Hawkeye is writing more about collective stupidity -- among those who believe they are conservative but are, in fact, facists, or, surprisingly so far right they've gone left and are communist.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 04:36 pm
@Debra Law,
Quote:
Your entire post reeks with the smell of raunchy bigotry. You are the one who is blindly meandering through life with your narrow-minded head stuffed full of stereotypical animus toward a class of individuals. No one is required to indulge your unjustifiable hate and irrational "the sky is falling" propaganda.


Such nastiness is, if the trick-cyclists are to be believed, and they are unanimous, is because Debra knows deep down that she is defending the indefensible.

There's a high probability that her parents would agree with me and it's a certainty that all four of her grandparents would have as well.

I can only think that she has been professionally engaged in some way with the issue and has become carried away in the courtroom in a fee earning capacity. There's nothing like money to get the head screwed right off the shoulders.

It is after all not much different than a cork in a bottle when all is said and done and I don't give two fucks either way on the whole subject. They can shag who or what they want as far as I'm concerned. Good luck to them.

It all seems to me just a way of talking about sex and causing damp patches and saliva running down the chin.

I was 18 before I discovered that some people felt up members of the same sex. And even then it was only jokes about Vaseline.

What is it they actually do when the ceremonies have been conducted, the parties are over, the reporters have gone away and they get down to the actual nitty gritty of the orgasmic reflex which is known to be ennervating and to cause feelings of disgust and shame in the immediate aftermath.

What's the rest of the week like. Is it spent talking about human rights and how they have been upheld? I do understand the Mellow Yellow song, having read my James Joyce, but what it has to do with a bloke's hairy arse and his balls hanging down I can't imagine. How do you lower a pair of foxed Y-fronts seductively and play hard to get?

Do they wear frilly knickers to make it more realistic? Purchased by mail order of course to ensure a modicum of anonymity.

I can well see that judges would go along to keep the pot simmering and their names up in lights.




0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 04:50 pm
@Lightwizard,
Quote:
Hawkeye is writing more about collective stupidity -- among those who believe they are conservative but are, in fact, facists, or, surprisingly so far right they've gone left and are communist


The far right and the far left agree that we accomplish together, that we are nothing without working together for a common cause. We agree that anarchy is the enemy of human progress. I am a socialist, but because I am you will find that I often agree with the radical right, their call for law and order at the expense of personal desires. We both understand that the Enlightenment got it wrong, that we are not driven only or even primarily by reason, that left up to our own devices absent social pressure folks will often do stupid **** that hurts them and everyone around them. Spirituality matters, the myth of the collective is critical for the survival of the collective, the individual must be given limits and must be taught what matters in life.

0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 06:43 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
How is excessive original choice oppressive? Specifically.


it sucks up time and energy best suited for other endeavours, and it gives decision making power to those who don't have the experience or education to know what is best. When a parent looks after a child and makes the big choices for them the child is comforted, and feels safe enough to explore life with the knowledge that if they drift towards danger the parents will step in. In the same way, when the individual knows that the collective knowledge and wisdom learned over generations has been employed to frame a society, the choices, they feel free to explore the available choices with the knowledge that none of them will bring them great harm.


Not a fan of "specific" are you?

Hot air, all of it.

Wisdom is not solely what we have done, but what we should have but have not done.

You put too great a value in the idea that "this is how it's always been done."

T
K
O

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 08:10 pm
@Diest TKO,
Quote:
You put too great a value in the idea that "this is how it's always been done


You are talking to a political and sexual radical, whom also happens to be a western Zennist....it is a stretch to essentially call me a brain dead traditionalist. I happen to believe that our ancestors were not morons, which makes me a traditionalist only relative to the herd of drugged up narcissistic moderns who don't know their history whom I live amongst.

Diest TKO
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 08:45 pm
@hawkeye10,
See, I do think they were pretty much morons.

For you consideration: Flat earth, alchemy, witch burning, English SI units, rule of thumb, slavery, stoning, and "git-er-done."

You'll fill up on the appetizers before you even see the main course of our ancestor's idiocy roll out of the kitchen.

Keeping gays from marrying isn't built on some foundation of wisdom, it's fear. Wisdom would come from real experience, and measurable success or failure of homosexuals to couple and maintain family units. As mentioned numerous times, the American Association of Pediatrics studied the topic and found that children raised by one or a gay couple were just as well adjusted as their peers raised in a one or two parent heterosexual home.

Wisdom based on actual fact, actual tests. Observable, and repeatable, the wisdom of mankind is NOT that gays should be prevented from marrying.

You can offer no logical or ethical reason to justify the systemic oppression of the GLBT community.

T
K
O
 

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