hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 03:38 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
care to offer any evidence for what you claim?
even a technology school like calpoly separates the two
Quote:
The mission of the College of Science and Mathematics is to facilitate learning, understanding, and appreciation of science and mathematics as a basis for

http://www.calpoly.edu/~math/

and from what i can see most universities put mathematics under arts/sciences don't claim that math is under science...it is separate from science
Quote:
The College of Arts & Sciences is one of the most diverse in the University, ranging the humanities, sciences, mathematics, fine arts, social sciences and more. Below you can explore some of our world-class departments and academic programs

http://www.arts.cornell.edu/departments.php
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 04:04 pm
Caltech interestingly has mathematics in this academic division:

Division of Physics, Mathematics & Astronomy

It's in the Alfred P. Sloan Mathematics and Physics building.

The debate as to whether or not it should be called a science has gone on for years. Hawkeye's argument unraveled when he threw in "craftsmanship" and art, going to to demonstrate that technological advances is the primary use of math. This is why you've heard so many students state they don't do well in math because they do not understand how if can be used in life. Well, they have no intention of being a scientist or engineer, of course. He's also demonstrated that math is not in the Art Division or "Crafts" Department Laughing . As far as crafts, I guess Hawkeye uses a ruler to cut out his paper dolls.



hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 04:10 pm
@Lightwizard,
Quote:
Hawkeye's argument unraveled when he threw in "craftsmanship" and art, going to to demonstrate that technological advances is the primary use of math.


what I was saying was that until the age of Reason technology advances were mostly considered to be the result of the progress of art and/or craftsmanship....that at the time it was not considered to be science. To say that science has been hugely important in the progress of man is our view because we appropriate to science work that our forefathers did not. It is revised history.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 04:26 pm
@hawkeye10,
Who considers that before the Age of Reason that technological advances were the result of art and/or craftsmanship? Who is this person? When did he live? Or if it's a group, could it my any chance be the church? Jefferson and Franklin certainly did not "appropriate" to science whatever "work" you've conjured up in your head. You're the revisionist.

As a matter of fact, if the Library of Alexandria hadn't been burned by whoever did it, Earth history would be drastically different. The library house most of the scientific, technological and engineering knowledge of the ancient world. But then, we can't forget the China, India or the Mayas, now can we?

Let's see, where did gunpowder and it's application come from again? The basis for virtually all modern weaponry until the atomic bomb.

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 11:18 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye, What is your definition of science? Are you trying to tell us that they great pyramids of Giza were built from "craftsmanship and art?" The pyramids were built in line with astrology as were many temples in Egypt.

FYI, math was invented by the Arabs.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 03:02 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

This is the thread that will not die with the same caste of characters telling each other how the constitution grant rights that are written in invisible ink.


That's the problem, BillRM. You erroneously believe that constitutions "grant" rights. They don't.

Our state and federal governments exist to PROMOTE the common welfare and to SECURE individual rights. Constitutions are written to provide the framework of government. You do not understand the basic fact that individual rights do not need to be explicitly recognized by a written constitution in order to be protected against unreasonable government deprivations. The equal protection clauses of our state and federal constitutions are ANTI-MAJORITARIAN provisions that prevent shifting majorities of the people from uniting and abusing the power of the state as a means to deprive others of their individual rights.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 03:30 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Debra, How do you think this will play out?


I think the CA Supreme Court will rule that a mere majority of the voters cannot amend the state constitution for the purpose of depriving minorities of equal protection of the law. If a super majority of the state's voters want the power to deprive minorities of equal rights, they would first have to convene a constitutional convention and get rid of the equal protection clause entirely. They would have to alter their form of state government by converting it from a constitutional republic into a pure democracy. In that event, everyone's rights would then be INSECURE and subject to the whims of shifting majorities.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 05:00 pm
@Debra Law,
Thanks; I'll expect the CA SC to overturn Prop 8.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 05:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
My conservative friends believe it should be overturned, that the conservative philosophy should be to keep government out of people's private sex lives, private relationships and private rituals. There is no victim here, but if there are victims in marriage, it would be the children of heterosexual broken homes, some of them going through some pretty disturbing traumas over their parents suddenly hating each other. Sure, that could happen with a married gay couple who adopted children but I doubt they could beat out the percentages established by the heterosexual community. Young people go to school and by high school they've already acquired a pretty good knowledge of what homosexuality is and isn't.

Relax, it's just sex.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 05:45 pm
@Lightwizard,
There are also many heterosexual couples who live together and never get "married." They may even have children (out of wedlock), but the evangelicals don't ever "complain" about "those." Shouldn't they get up in arms and make that "illegal?" (God would never approve of having sex without "marriage.")
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 09:31 am
@cicerone imposter,
I probably shouldn't jump in here, but I need to point out that your analogy is quite faulty there CI. If evangelicals were "complaining" about and attempting to make it illegal for 2 people of the same sex to live together, then your analogy would make sense. All they are trying to do is keep homosexuals from marrying, not living together and having sex. Thus your analogy is faulty.

And for the record, the conservative church's opinion about couples living together is in line with their opinion about homosexuality. Both are considered sinful. You just hear more objection to homosexual marriage because that is what is being fought out through the courts and at the ballot box right now.


Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 10:46 am
@CoastalRat,
CoastalRat wrote:

I probably shouldn't jump in here, but I need to point out that your analogy is quite faulty there CI. If evangelicals were "complaining" about and attempting to make it illegal for 2 people of the same sex to live together, then your analogy would make sense. All they are trying to do is keep homosexuals from marrying, not living together and having sex. Thus your analogy is faulty.

And for the record, the conservative church's opinion about couples living together is in line with their opinion about homosexuality. Both are considered sinful. You just hear more objection to homosexual marriage because that is what is being fought out through the courts and at the ballot box right now.


If I understand CI right, the point isn't about what evangelicals find sinful, it's about what sins they feel they will try to legislate over.

Cohaitation and children out of wedlock are not behaviors that any Christian church I know of promotes (or teaches is okay). For Christians, sin is sin. No matter the size, the product is the same. Homosexuality cannot be a "worse" sin than any of the numerous things that a evangelical does that is not in line with church teachings. It's the same, but somehow it's ethical for these people to legislate on other's sins (their belief, not mine) and not their own. What's in the ballot box is not what makes this special.

For the record, evangelicals do try and stop gay couples from having sex. Ever hear of sodomy laws?

T
K
O
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 10:50 am
@Diest TKO,
You got that spot on! Thanks.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 11:55 am
http://contexts.org/socimages/files/2008/12/capture12.jpg
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 01:27 pm
@Lightwizard,
Some explanation is warranted.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 01:36 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I'm sorry -- thought it was in the image. The chart is the history of the sodomy laws which the USSC now wiped out.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 01:41 pm
@Lightwizard,
Interesting to see Massachusetts was a bit late based on their generally liberal bent.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 07:10 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Yeah, will the government peaking into bedrooms to see if you're having sex and what kind is an Orwellean nightmare, no matter what sexual orientation. The scene in "1984" where the two main characters are caught by a hidden TV camera is a chilling reminder of how backward the good ole USA can be.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 11:26 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:

Proposition 8 Cases

Quote:
What's Next

The Supreme Court has announced that an oral argument will be held in the Prop. 8 cases on Thursday, March 5, 2009, from 9:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. The court will issue a written opinion in the cases within 90 days of oral argument. See news release.


http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/courts/supreme/highprofile/prop8.htm



REMINDER: Oral argument is tomorrow. I think the argument will be broadcast on c-span.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 11:28 pm
Proposition 8’s Same-Sex Marriage Ban Goes to California's Supreme Court

EXCERPT from article:

Quote:
SAN FRANCISCO"A majority of California voters may have supported Proposition 8, the constitutional amendment passed four months ago that eliminated the rights of same-sex couples to marry. But as the state Supreme Court prepares to hear oral arguments on a series of legal challenges to the law tomorrow, more and more members of the state's political establishment continue to take a public stand against it"raising questions, in some quarters, about why so many politicians here have opted to openly break with a majority of voters.

This week, both houses of the state Legislature and the state's attorney general, Jerry Brown, roundly condemned the law and asked the Supreme Court to overturn it. The state's governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger, both of its U.S. senators, Dianne Feinstein and Barbara Boxer, and its highest-ranking congresswoman, Nancy Pelosi, have all made statements since the election denouncing the law. Proposition 8, which defines marriage as only between a man and a woman, passed in November with 52 percent of the vote.

In a party-line vote on Monday, the Democrat-controlled state Legislature took a legal stand against the law, passing a nonbinding resolution declaring that voters alone did not have the right to amend the Constitution in this case. The resolution asserts that Prop. 8, because it strips a minority group of a constitutionally protected right by mere majority vote, is an improper revision of the Constitution. Since a revision requires a two-thirds vote of the state Legislature before it can appear on the ballot"something Proposition 8 never got"lawmakers have asked the court to render the law invalid.


 

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