Prop 8?

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
No more stupid then letting religion guide the law .

religion is the collective wisdom of not only our peers, but also a linking back to the wisdom gain by past generations.

Uh, wrong. Religion is a tool of control and not scientific in the slightest. It is the advances of science that have allowed us to achieve our level that we currently enjoy, not religion.

Unfortunately science doesn't support the case of homophobes, so I can see why you'd like to knock it....

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

Uh, wrong. Religion is a tool of control and not scientific in the slightest. It is the advances of science that have allowed us to achieve our level that we currently enjoy, not religion.

science has only been a major force for a few hundred years, you give credit to a system of thought that has not yet even had the time to prove itself as worthy. I think that we know that scientific theory works to solve particular problems, I don't think that we know that science unguided by religion is more helpful than harmful. The mega pollution of the earth and the nuclear bomb are both products of science, and either could end us.

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Uh, wrong. Religion is a tool of control and not scientific in the slightest. It is the advances of science that have allowed us to achieve our level that we currently enjoy, not religion.

science has only been a major force for a few hundred years

Incorrect, the Greeks had the Scientific process down pat 2500 years ago. Are you pulling my leg or something? You can't be serious with statements such as this. Science was the major driving force behind societal development over the last 2000 years; it isn't as if Religion has gone through any major advances in that time.

Quote:

you give credit to a system of thought that has not yet even had the time to prove itself as worthy.

Snort

I suppose you think the magic box you're typing on was miracled into existence?

C'mon, man.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Adultery, a law from religion (it's in the Ten Commandments), but also a laws in many non-Christian cultures going back to the ancient Egyptians, Indians, Chinese, and was against the law in early America, and punishable by death in the state of Massachusetts. This is only an example -- read the Old Testament especially and you'll find how much of religious dogma found its way into today's laws along with some pretty gross punishment and has been either ignored or excised from the judicial process.

It science wasn't an extremely successful system of thought, seldom guided by religion, you'd be moving around in a horse-and-buggy, flying would be out of the question unless you believe you have wings, robotics that can perform a medical operation more accurately than the surgeon alone and watching pictures from the air on big screens. Just a smitten of incredible technological advances that weren't devised in a church, and not proven to be guided by any faith or religion. As a matter of fact, it was invented because the inventor had the faith in himself that he could achieve his goals.

I suppose you believe Edison prayed electricity would work and that's the reason it came to be.

Hogwash.

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

Incorrect, the Greeks had the Scientific process down pat 2500 years ago. Are you pulling my leg or something? You can't be serious with statements such as this. Science was the major driving force behind societal development over the last 2000 years; it isn't as if Religion has gone through any major advances in that time

Until around the time of the industrial revolution science had almost no impact on humans, what you call scientific improvement was craftsmanship and art. Being blinded by the modern assumption that science has triumphed over religion, that reason has rubbed out irrationality, you create revisionist history. You are wrong on all counts. Our current economic mess is the kind of thing that happens when our belief of what is does not match the reality of what is.

I am on record here that unless science shows that homosexual rights hurts humanity we should give homosexuals equal standing, but that is because I think that the presumption of the right to freedom is the best way to live. The majority has the right to limit the freedom of individuals only when the majority can prove that it is in their best interest to do so. Science is the only proof that is currently widely accepted, so science it must be. For now.

1 Reply

It's reason and logic unguided by religion that is prevailing including a moral standard that we are all innately born with -- it does not require the Pope for an invention to get invented nor a reasonable and logical conclusion of Constitutional law reached. If it's used for good or evil is what the masses, right down to the individual use it for. Of course, if it's used for evil, you can usually blame the politicians.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Incorrect, the Greeks had the Scientific process down pat 2500 years ago. Are you pulling my leg or something? You can't be serious with statements such as this. Science was the major driving force behind societal development over the last 2000 years; it isn't as if Religion has gone through any major advances in that time

Until around the time of the industrial revolution science had almost no impact on humans, what you call scientific improvement was craftsmanship and art. Being blinded by the modern assumption that science has triumphed over religion, that reason has rubbed out irrationality, you create revisionist history. You are wrong on all counts. Our current economic mess is the kind of thing that happens when our belief of what is does not match the reality of what is.

I am on record here that unless science shows that homosexual rights hurts humanity we should give homosexuals equal standing, but that is because I think that the presumption of the right to freedom is the best way to live. The majority has the right to limit the freedom of individuals only when the majority can prove that it is in their best interest to do so. Science is the only proof that is currently widely accepted, so science it must be. For now.

Unsupportable idiocy. Mathematics is not craftsmanship OR art, it is science, and it was heavily affecting the lives of everyday humans hundreds and thousands of years before Christianity was even imagined.

You cannot support your case with the historical record, for the historical record directly contradicts your claims.

'No impact on humans,' geez. How can you say such stupid things? Do you simply have no conception of what science is?

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

Unsupportable idiocy. Mathematics is not craftsmanship OR art, it is science

refuted on page 5, here the author says "mathematics occupies a peculiar and unique role in that it is neither a science nor an art but partakes in both disciples"

http://books.google.com/books?id=8yNgQHsq1hwC&pg=PA349&lpg=PA349&dq=mathematics+%22impact+on+civilization%22&source=web&ots=8jHudWWb2O&sig=9qHUw-EJDmmUWymQD1kobJusaxk&hl=en&ei=TC6PSeG_KImMsAPi4LmDCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA5,M1

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@hawkeye10,

Quoting one line out of context from a virtually obscure book that is thirty seven years old doesn't tell any of us a thing, especially not about this subject. An obvious Google.

1 Reply

@Lightwizard,

it is however more documentation for my opinion than Cycloptichorn has offered for his, which is all I need to do to win the argument.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

it is however more documentation for my opinion than Cycloptichorn has offered for his, which is all I need to do to win the argument.

Spoken by one who does not understand Argumentation or Debate, perhaps. Sometimes quoting sources hurts your own case.

Mathematics is the heart and ultimate language of science; it is the purest form of scientific expression. Mathematics predates our modern religions. I could give a fig for some line out of a book you frantically googled.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

The subject of art in all universities, actually in all schools, is in the art department, not the science department. Craftsmanship only means the mathematician prints clearly. I've heard psychology as being a science and an art. There are artful mathematics, fractals for instance, but author has made an assertion in a book that's so out-of-date it's available on the internet for free. One of the best examples of mathematics applied to the visual arts is op art (Victor Vaserely and the like), utilizing the science of color as seen by the eye. Otherwise, it's an academic stretch.

Where are the scientific studies that prove conclusively that homosexuality harms society?

1 Reply

@Lightwizard,

Lightwizard wrote:

The subject of art in all universities, actually in all schools, is in the art department, not the science department. Craftsmanship only means the mathematician prints clearly. I've heard psychology as being a science and an art. There are artful mathematics, fractals for instance, but author has made an assertion in a book that's so out-of-date it's available on the internet for free. One of the best examples of mathematics applied to the visual arts is op art (Victor Vaserely and the like), utilizing the science of color as seen by the eye. Otherwise, it's an academic stretch.

It is an academic stretch. But there is some truth to it.

You often hear mathematicians describe proofs as 'elegant' or 'beautiful,' because there is a certain harmony to their actions, or an ease of movement from one logical statement to another which pleases the mind. And Music, one of the most universal expressions of human emotion and beauty, is nothing more than applied Mathematics.

There is a certain attraction to applying mystical thoughts and properties to the language which universally describes each and every interaction that we have ever seen in our physical universe; but I think maybe we're using the word 'art' differently than the author intended. But seeing as it's a single line out of the book, maybe we should cut the author some slack.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

Mathematics is the heart and ultimate language of science;

being the language of science does not make mathematics science. Religion uses linguistics to communicate, but this does not make linguistics religion either.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Mathematics is the heart and ultimate language of science;

being the language of science does not make mathematics science. Religion uses linguistics to communicate, but this does not make linguistics religion either.

Mathematics is a science, because it relies upon testable theories and provable expiriments. 2 + 2 will always equal 4. That's not an assertion, it is testable and provable.

This is what lies at the center of the Scientific theory: the ability to test one's ideas to see if they come out the same way every single time.

Mathematics underpins each and every thing you interact with, every single second of your life. The study of this is a science and it is the language which is used to describe all other aspects of scientific development. It's difficult for me to understand why you argue that math is not in fact Science, when it clearly is an integral part of what we call science.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Apart from figuring out one's tip at a restaurant, adding up how much Madoff bilked out of his investors (neither one of those having anything to do with art, except Madoff could be referred to as The Artful Dodger), mathematics is irrevocably married to science. We have, for instance:

http://www.math.cmu.edu/

or

http://www.usca.edu/math/

There are no "Departments of Mathematical Arts" in universities.

Get real -- the author was putting forward an opinion and who knows for what reason in some old, tired textbook.

1 Reply

@Lightwizard,

Lightwizard wrote:

Apart from figuring out one's tip at a restaurant, adding up how much Madoff bilked out of his investors (neither one of those having anything to do with art, except Madoff could be referred to as The Artful Dodger), mathematics is irrevocably married to science. We have, for instance:

http://www.math.cmu.edu/

or

http://www.usca.edu/math/

There are no "Departments of Mathematical Arts" in universities.

Get real -- the author was putting forward an opinion and who knows for what reason in some old, tired textbook.

Yup, I agree with you.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

Mathematics is a science, because it relies upon testable theories and provable expiriments. 2 + 2 will always equal 4. That's not an assertion, it is testable and provable.

look around, rarely is math considered a science. Mathematics AND Science is how organizations which deal with both label their missions. Universities have math departments AND science departments not one for both. The majority has ruled against your opinion.

Also, the idea that you have of mathematics being important to civilization all along is an illusion. Mathematics has grown in fits and starts, it is only in the last few hundred years that it has made great progress, and it is only in the last few hundred years that it has made any impact upon the lives of men. Before then it was the work of a few obscure individuals who worked in theories that had no practical applications in civilization. It was only when we entered the age of technology that mathematics became worth paying attention too.

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

a paper arguing that math is not a science, not that I need more evidence because the opposing side has offered nothing but personal opinion:
http://euclid.trentu.ca/math/sb/misc/mathsci.html

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Mathematics is a science, because it relies upon testable theories and provable expiriments. 2 + 2 will always equal 4. That's not an assertion, it is testable and provable.

look around, rarely is math considered a science. Mathematics AND Science is how organizations which deal with both label their missions. Universities have math departments AND science departments not one for both. The majority has ruled against your opinion.

Where do you get your information on this from?

At Berkeley, they have a Department of Math, WITHIN the College of letters and Sciences. Math is usually a sub-division of the College of Sciences at most universities. Do you understand the difference between Colleges, Universities and Departments?

At the University of Texas, where I went, it was the same.

Quote:

Also, the idea that you have of mathematics being important to civilization all along is an illusion. Mathematics has grown in fits and starts, it is only in the last few hundred years that it has made great progress, and it is only in the last few hundred years that it has made any impact upon the lives of men. Before then it was the work of a few obscure individuals who worked in theories that had no practical applications in civilization. It was only when we entered the age of technology that mathematics became worth paying attention too.

Moronic. How do you think the Pyramids were built? An extreme understanding of Mathematics and the sciences associated with it.

How do you think seaborne navigation was invented? Mathematics.

You're really digging yourself a hole here yaknow, you ought to quit before it gets worse.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

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