hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Nov, 2008 12:35 pm
@Debra Law,
Quote:
You refuse to educate yourself concerning the basic tenets of a constitutional republic
This would be the tenets of the same constitutional republic where homosexuality was considered a psychiatric disorder up till 1973, right?
Quote:
Thus, having any discussion with you concerning the designated role of government in this country is an exercise in futility.
you and TKO, two who either can't or won't make a prolonged defense of your position in the face of those who disagree with you. We must adopt your position instantly or else watch as you you go into full tantrum mode. If that does not work you turn tail and exit. Your behaviour does not inspire confidence in the soundness of your position. You are doing what those who don't have a winning argument tend to do.
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2008 12:56 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
You refuse to educate yourself concerning the basic tenets of a constitutional republic
This would be the tenets of the same constitutional republic where homosexuality was considered a psychiatric disorder up till 1973, right?


Again, you display your ignorance. Homosexuality is neither a sexual disorder nor a psychiatric disorder. Falsely labeling, stereotyping, and stigmatizing people is a tool of oppression. When you invoke the tools of oppression, you do so as an irrational excuse to deny civil rights to an entire class of people and to commit atrocities against them.

Over many centuries of recorded human history, YOU and people like you have ABUSED the power of the state repeatedly to oppress individuals and minorities whom you disfavor. Our founders depised that history of man's inhumanity to man. Therefore, they established a constitutional republic in order to protect individuals and minorities from your oppression and abuse of state power. Accordingly, you cannot apply the discredited theory that the earth is flat to justify oppression of people who believe the earth is round. Similarly, you cannot apply any other discredited theory to justify your modern day oppression of homosexuals. You cannot justify the unjustifiable. Your vicious and irrational desire to demean the existence of an entire class of people and to violate their civil rights has no place in our constitutional republic.


Debra Law wrote:
Thus, having any discussion with you concerning the designated role of government in this country is an exercise in futility.


hawkeye10 wrote:
you and TKO, two who either can't or won't make a prolonged defense of your position in the face of those who disagree with you. We must adopt your position instantly or else watch as you you go into full tantrum mode. If that does not work you turn tail and exit. Your behaviour does not inspire confidence in the soundness of your position. You are doing what those who don't have a winning argument tend to do.


You're a liar. I have engaged in a prolonged discussion of our constitutional republic that was designed to secure the rights of individuals and minorities against majoritarian oppression. I have provided you with excerpts and links to the applicable constitutional provisions, the Federalist Papers, and court cases that establish beyond any doubt that your oppression of homosexuals is immoral, wrong, and unconstitutional. These authoritative sources cannot be refuted. Thus, you have made no effort to controvert the truth. Instead, you rely on the patently false assertion that the "majority rules" while you intentionally poke out your eyes. Although you wilfully blind yourself to the clearly established constitutional limits on any government power that the majority may wield, those limits still exist.

You are content to spew falsehoods without compunction and to wallow in your own dishonesty like a pig in his filthy sty. To you, 1 + 1 does not equal 2 simply because you are motived to embrace a contrary sum. You claim that it equals something else despite all irrefutable proof to the contrary. Accordingly, continuing to discuss the matter with you is indeed an exercise in futility.

In conclusion, you're nothing more than a spoiled child who insists that the pair of twos in his hand beats my royal flush. It makes no difference how many authoritative sources that all the others provide to prove that a royal flush is the highest ranking hand in the standard game of poker. You ignore that proof and remain steadfast in your dishonesty. No matter how many times you try to force your shoe on my foot, I'm not going to wear it. You're the spoiled child who throws the temper tantrum because no one wants to play your game.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2008 01:04 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

you and TKO, two who either can't or won't make a prolonged defense of your position in the face of those who disagree with you. We must adopt your position instantly or else watch as you you go into full tantrum mode. If that does not work you turn tail and exit. Your behaviour does not inspire confidence in the soundness of your position. You are doing what those who don't have a winning argument tend to do.


How full of **** you are. Deb, TKO and to a lesser extent myself have been drop-kicking you bigots all over this thread for about 10 pages now. Deb in particular has been making a prolonged defense of her position, from both a moral and a legal standpoint.

This post is really an indication that you are not governed by what we would call 'logic' when it comes to judging the validity of your arguments; instead, I believe that a fair amount of Homophobia is being displayed, and it's causing you to make Illogical arguments.

Cycloptichorn
Woiyo9
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2008 01:21 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
LOL!!!!

Logic is in the eye of the beholder. Hawk and I have made good arguments about the social aspects of this debate which you and your team have ridiculed and dismissed. That is disrespectful.

We have listened to your arguments and respectfully disagreed.

You and your team have consistently lowered yourself to name calling (as you have just done) since it seems to be very difficult for you to accept the fact that you have been unable to influence the majority of voters who have an opposing point of view.

That demonstrates to me that you have lost your ability to engage in an intelligent discussion of this issue.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2008 01:35 pm
@Woiyo9,
Quote:

Logic is in the eye of the beholder


This, more than any other comment that you have made woiyo, truly displays your ignorance. For nothing could be further from the truth. The very definition of Logic itself disagrees with you:

Quote:
1 a (1): a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning (2): a branch or variety of logic


Logic is a science, not an opinion. You don't just get to 'decide' that your logic is great and sound. You need to be able to show proof for each step of your argument. The opponents of gay marriage, including yourself, are completely unable to do so. In every single attempt, you fall back and rely upon illogical positions which have no real basis in law whatsoever.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/logic

Quote:


You and your team have consistently lowered yourself to name calling (as you have just done) since it seems to be very difficult for you to accept the fact that you have been unable to influence the majority of voters who have an opposing point of view.


I think there are two reasons behind this -

First, neither you nor anyone else has shown how gay marriage will harm society in any way. You certainly haven't presented any logical arguments showing this. In fact, every argument I have seen made supporting this view relies on illogic and opinion for it's support, and those are poor pillars for support of logic.

Second, it doesn't matter what the opinion of the 'majority' is in an equal rights issue. It certainly has not during our past. America would still be a segregated and racially divided nation if it wasn't for the courts, which you well know. Our average citizens have neither the interest nor in many cases the capability of doing the two things necessary to decide this case:

1, to look at the issue from the cold lens of logic, devoid of emotion or so-called 'tradition.'

2, to closely examine the documents which make the legal foundation of our nation to determine whether or not the rules or laws we have passed, or are trying to pass, are self-contradictory.

There's a real reason why courts all over the country have struck down one anti-gay law after another; because in America, equality is truly for everyone, not just some, and a careful examination of our laws shows this to be so every time. And those bigots who are against equality for those like themselves have been set back time and time again.

We use the word 'bigot,' because there is no other reasonable name for someone who promotes discrimination against another person, Woiyo. It's an accurate description. You don't like the way it sounds b/c you don't like to think of yourself as a bigot. But guess what? Nobody likes to think of themselves as a bad guy. Everyone gives themselves bullshit reasons for why they hold the opinions that they do. You aren't special in this regard. Nor are you excused.

I predict that the liberal arc of our nation will continue, unbent by the fears of our more Conservative brethren; and equality for everyone in America will occur during my lifetime, and hopefully much sooner. Nothing you can do will stop it, Woiyo, for our side of the argument rests on the foundational principles and documents of our nation: that all people are truly equal, and all laws apply equally to everyone, in order to ensure that everyone has the right and ability to pursue happiness in this lifetime.

Cycloptichorn
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2008 02:36 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
We use the word 'bigot,' because there is no other reasonable name for someone who promotes discrimination against another person, Woiyo. It's an accurate description.


* * *
Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: \ˈbi-gət\
Function: noun
Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot
Date: 1660
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot

* * *

In this constitutional republic, Woyio and his companions are free to be bigots. In other words, we do not deprive bigots of their civil rights, e.g., the right to marry the person of their choice, because of their irrational prejudices and intolerance of others.

* * *

Main Entry: op·press
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈpres\
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French oppresser, from Latin oppressus, past participle of opprimere, from ob- against + premere to press " more at ob-, press
Date: 14th century
1 aarchaic : suppress b: to crush or burden by abuse of power or authority
2: to burden spiritually or mentally : weigh heavily upon

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oppressor

. . .

Although Woyio and his companions are free to be bigots, they are not free to be oppressors. In our constitutional republic, the bigots may not abuse the power or authority of government in order to give legal affect to their prejudice and intolerance. The bigots may not deprive homosexuals of life, liberty, or equal protection of the law. Even though Copper Seth obstinately and intolerantly believes that homosexuality is a sin, he may not use the power of the state to force his religious views on everyone else in society. Bill's, Woyio's, Hawkeye's, and Copper Seth's knowledge that other people do not live their lives according to their moral or religious values is not a legally cognizable "injury."



Woiyo9
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2008 02:47 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Bullshit Cyclo and you know it!!!!!!!

This issue is not as simple as black and white. It is a social issue that this Nation needs to decide how it wants to structure itself. There are precedents supporting the current "one man / one woman" which we have debated to death and one's your side will never agree with.

As far as you buddy Debra Law is concerned, there is no bigotry associated with the debate. There is only your inability to engage in debate and you inability to convince those with a different point of view.

Since Debra Law opposes polygamy, that makes her a bigot? Not in my eyes it does not. However, to your definition, she is a bigot.

Get a grip, both of you.

Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2008 03:20 pm
@Woiyo9,
Quote:

This issue is not as simple as black and white. It is a social issue that this Nation needs to decide how it wants to structure itself. There are precedents supporting the current "one man / one woman" which we have debated to death and one's your side will never agree with.


Those precedents are meaningless in the face of the Law, Woiyo. This is America; the Law rules supreme, not your or my opinion, not tradition, not nebulous 'social issues.' This is why courts keep upholding the rights of homosexuals across our nation.

I also disagree with the 'social issue' aspect of it. Society has little to do with it... just those who want to meddle in other's lives...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Copper Seth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2008 05:07 pm
@Debra Law,
I have made efforts to controvert the "truth" you espouse. The problem that exists is that you won't listen to the other side in this argument. You only listen to words that confirm what you hold to be true. Maybe if you won't listen to my words, you'll listen to the words of Justice Baxter from our CA Supreme Court in his dissending oppinion to the ruling that overturned Proposition 22...

"I cannot join this exercise in legal jujitsu, by which the Legislature's own weight is used against it to create a constitutional right from whole cloth, defeat the People's will, and invalidate a statute otherwise immune from legislative interference. Though the majority insists otherwise, its pronouncement seriously oversteps the judicial power. The majority purports to apply certain fundamental provisions of the state Constitution, but it runs afoul of another just as fundamental"article III, section 3, the separation of powers clause. This clause declares that “[t]he powers of state government are legislative, executive, and judicial,” and that “[p]ersons charged with the exercise of one power may not exercise either of the others” except as the Constitution itself specifically provides. (Italics added.)

History confirms the importance of the judiciary's constitutional role as a check against majoritarian abuse. Still, courts must use caution when exercising the potentially transformative authority to articulate constitutional rights. Otherwise, judges with limited accountability risk infringing upon our society's most basic shared premise"the People's general right, directly or through their chosen legislators, to decide fundamental issues of public policy for themselves. Judicial restraint is particularly appropriate where, as here, the claimed constitutional entitlement is of recent conception and challenges the most fundamental assumption about a basic social institution.

The majority has violated these principles. It simply does not have the right to erase, then recast, the age-old definition of marriage, as virtually all societies have understood it, in order to satisfy its own contemporary notions of equality and justice.

The California Constitution says nothing about the rights of same-sex couples to marry. On the contrary, as the majority concedes, our original Constitution, effective from the moment of statehood, evidenced an assumption that marriage was between partners of the opposite sex. Statutes enacted at the state's first legislative session confirmed this assumption, which has continued to the present day. When the Legislature realized that 1971 amendments to the Civil Code, enacted for other reasons, had created an ambiguity on the point, the oversight was quickly corrected, and the definition of marriage as between a man and a woman was made explicit. (Maj. opn., ante, at pp. 792"801.) The People themselves reaffirmed this definition when, in the year 2000, they adopted Proposition 22 by a 61.4 percent majority.

Despite this history, plaintiffs first insist they have a fundamental right, protected by the California Constitution's due process and privacy clauses (Cal. Const., art. I, §§ 1, 7, subd. (a)), to marry the adult consenting partners of their choice, regardless of gender. The majority largely accepts this contention. It holds that “the right to marry, as embodied in article I, sections 1 and 7 of the California Constitution, guarantees same-sex couples the same substantive constitutional rights as opposite-sex couples to … enter with [one's chosen life partner] into a committed, officially recognized, and protected family relationship that enjoys all of the constitutionally based incidents of marriage.” (Maj. opn., ante, at p. 829, fn. omitted.) Further, the majority declares, a “core element[ ] of this fundamental right is the right of same-sex couples to have their official family relationship accorded the same dignity, respect, and stature as that accorded to all other officially recognized family relationships.” (Id., at p. 830.)

To the extent this means same-sex couples have a fundamental right to enter legally recognized family unions called “marriage” (or, as the majority unrealistically suggests, by another name common to both same-sex and opposite-sex unions), I cannot agree. I find no persuasive basis in our Constitution or our jurisprudence to justify such a cataclysmic transformation of this venerable institution.

Fundamental rights entitled to the Constitution's protection are those “which are, objectively, ‘deeply rooted in this [society's] history and tradition,’ [citations], and ‘implicit in the concept of ordered liberty,’ such that ‘neither liberty nor justice could exist if they were sacrificed,’ [citation].” (Washington v. Glucksberg (1997) 521 U.S. 702, 720"721 [138 L. Ed. 2d 772, 117 S. Ct. 2258] (Glucksberg); see, e.g., Dawn D. v. Superior Court (1998) 17 Cal.4th 932, 940 [72 Cal. Rptr. 2d 871, 952 P.2d 1139].) Moreover, an assessment whether a fundamental right or interest is at stake requires “a ‘careful description’ of the asserted fundamental … interest. [Citations.]” (Glucksberg, supra, at p. 721; Dawn D., supra, at p. 941.)

These principles are crucial restraints upon the overreaching exercise of judicial authority in violation of the separation of powers. Courts have “ ‘always been reluctant to expand the concept of substantive due process because guideposts for responsible decisionmaking in this unchartered area are scarce and open-ended.’ [Citation.] By extending constitutional protection to an asserted right or liberty interest, we, to a great extent, place the matter outside the arena of public debate and legislative action. We must therefore ‘exercise the utmost care whenever we are asked to break new ground in this field,’ [citation], lest the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause be subtly transformed into the policy preferences” of judges. (Glucksberg, supra, 521 U.S. 702, 720.)

It is beyond dispute, as the Court of Appeal majority in this case persuasively indicated, that there is no deeply rooted tradition of same-sex marriage, in the nation or in this state. Precisely the opposite is true. The concept of same-sex marriage was unknown in our distant past, and is novel in our recent history, because the universally understood definition of marriage has been the legal or religious union of a man and a woman. "
--------------------------------
On the Issue of Homosexuals as a minority, Justice Baxter states...

"The concept that certain identifiable groups are entitled to extra protection under the equal protection clause stems, most basically, from the premise that because these groups are unpopular minorities, or otherwise share a history of insularity, persecution, and discrimination, and are politically powerless, they are especially susceptible to continuing abuse by the majority. Laws that single out groups in this category for different treatment are presumed to “reflect prejudice and antipathy"a view that those in the burdened class are not as worthy or deserving as others. For these reasons, and because such discrimination is unlikely to be soon rectified by legislative means,” the deference normally accorded to legislative choices does not apply. (Cleburne, supra, 473 U.S. 432, 440, italics added; see also San Antonio School District v. Rodriguez (1973) 411 U.S. 1, 28 [36 L. Ed. 2d 16, 93 S. Ct. 1278] [noting relevance, for purposes of identification as suspect class, that group is “relegated to such a position of political powerlessness as to command extraordinary protection from the majoritarian political process”].)

Recognizing that the need for special constitutional protection arises from the political impotence of an insular and disfavored group, several courts holding that sexual orientation is not a suspect class have focused particularly on a determination that, in contemporary times at least, the gay and lesbian community does not lack political power. (High Tech Gays, supra, 895 F.2d 563, 574; Conaway v. Deane, supra, 932 A.2d 571, 609"614 [same-sex marriage]; Andersen v. State, supra, 138 P.3d 963, 974"975 [same].)

In California, the political emergence of the gay and lesbian community is particularly apparent. In this state, the progress achieved through democratic means"progress described in detail by the majority"demonstrates that, despite undeniable past injustice and discrimination, this group now “ ‘is obviously able to wield political power in defense of its interests.’ ” (Maj. opn., ante, at p. 842, quoting the Attorney General's brief.)

Nor are these gains so fragile and fortuitous as to require extraordinary state constitutional protection. On the contrary, the majority itself declares that recent decades have seen “a fundamental and dramatic transformation in this state's understanding and legal treatment of gay individuals and gay couples” (maj. opn., ante, at p. 821), whereby “California has repudiated past practices and policies that … denigrated the general character and morals of gay individuals” and now recognizes homosexuality as “simply one of the numerous variables of our common and diverse humanity” (ibid.). Under these circumstances, I submit, gays and lesbians in this state currently lack the insularity, unpopularity, and consequent political vulnerability upon which the notion of suspect classifications is founded."

On the Court’s right of overturning Prop 22

"Accordingly, I would apply the normal rational basis test to determine whether, by granting same-sex couples all the substantive rights and benefits of marriage, but reserving the marriage label for opposite-sex unions, California's laws violate the equal protection guarantee of the state Constitution. By that standard, I find ample grounds for the balance currently struck on this issue by both the Legislature and the People.

First, it is certainly reasonable for the Legislature, having granted same-sex couples all substantive marital rights within its power, to assign those rights a name other than marriage. After all, an initiative statute adopted by a 61.4 percent popular vote, and constitutionally immune from repeal by the Legislature, defines marriage as a union of partners of the opposite sex.

Moreover, in light of the provisions of federal law that, for purposes of federal benefits, limit the definition of marriage to opposite-sex couples (1 U.S.C. § 7), California must distinguish same-sex from opposite-sex couples in administering the numerous federal-state programs that are governed by federal law. A separate nomenclature applicable to the family relationship of same-sex couples undoubtedly facilitates the administration of such programs.

Most fundamentally, the People themselves cannot be considered irrational in deciding, for the time being, that the fundamental definition of marriage, as it has universally existed until very recently, should be preserved. As the New Jersey Supreme Court observed, “We cannot escape the reality that the shared societal meaning of marriage"passed down through the common law into our statutory law"has always been the union of a man and a woman. To alter that meaning would render a profound change in the public consciousness of a social institution of ancient origin.” (Lewis v. Harris, supra, 908 A.2d 196, 222.)

If such a profound change in this ancient social institution is to occur, the People and their representatives, who represent the public conscience, should have the right, and the responsibility, to control the pace of that change through the democratic process. Family Code sections 300 and 308.5 serve this salutary purpose. The majority's decision erroneously usurps it."
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2008 05:29 pm
@Woiyo9,
Woiyo9 wrote:
Since Debra Law opposes polygamy, that makes her a bigot? Not in my eyes it does not. However, to your definition, she is a bigot.


Here's what I said about polygamy:

Debra Law wrote:
Polygamy is many marriages. The prohibition of polygamous marriages is a law of general applicability. In other words, the state does not make polygamy available to some while denying it to others based on arbitrary classifications. In this country, no one is allowed to be married to several persons at the same time. Accordingly, there exists no state discrimination that would be subject to judicial review under the equal protection clause of the Constitution.


http://able2know.org/topic/124910-19#post-3488037

I made a statement concerning State action and the application of the equal protection clause of the Constitution. I did not make a statement opposing or supporting polygamy. My personal opinion on the subject is not relevant to the constitutional questions whether the State makes polygamy available to some persons while denying it to others similarly situated, and if so, whether the discrimination is necessary to serve a compelling state interest.



Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2008 05:50 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra, the other side of the argument does not recognize the necessity or even ability of removing one's personal opinion from questions of equality and justice. That's what really gets me about this discussion.

Cycloptichorn
Copper Seth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2008 08:24 pm
@Debra Law,
You can disagree all you want about whether or not homosexuality is a sinfull lifestyle. God is the same today as he was yesterday and will be tomorrow. He will always view homosexuality as a sinfull lifestyle whether you do or not. God created you, not the other way around. I gave you some verses that describe the state of mankind. We are all sinfull people. We all fall short of God's perfection and are in need of a savior. Christianity is about restoring a relationship that was broken each time we choose to rebel against God (also known as sin). When you choose to sin you continue to widen the gap in that relationship. Without Jesus, there is no way to bridge that gap.

I don't know what test you think I'm failing. However, the Book of Life records the names of those who have given their lives to Christ and, thus, get to enter heaven. It is not a list of reasons for you to enter or be denied entrance to heaven. You only get in if you've accepted God's gift of salvation through his son Jesus. After all, it's all about what Jesus did, not me.

It is not my opinion that those that disagree with me are going to hell. It is my belief that those that disagree with God and want nothing or little to do with him will ultimately get what they ask for...an eternity apart from God. That place is called hell.

You think that God is not pleased with the way I "throw His name around in order to justify my prejudice and bigotry?" Well, from my point of view, I'm standing for truth and loving people enough to expose them to the truths of God.

Tell me which is the more loving thing to do??? Let's say for this example that you had a friend, lover, family member, etc. who had started doing crack cocaine. Would you accept this part of their life as normal and encourage them to keep doing the drug? Is that what a loving person would do? I don't think so. I think that the loving person would try to help them overcome their addiction. Now, if a law came up that would ban crack cocaine from ever entering the California, would a loving person vote against the ban? Or would they say that it is wrong to use drugs and vote for the ban? I say that they would vote for the ban because they see that it does damage to the individual taking the drug. I voted for Prop 8 because it goes against what I believe is right. There is a problem with heterosexual marriage, it has been cheapened. To give the title of marriage to a homosexual union, further cheapens what marriage is all about. It is another rip int he moral fabric of our society. Additionally, since I believe that the homosexual lifestyle is sinfull, why would I vote something into law that contradicts what I believe?

You can be mad at me and throw hatefull insults at me all you want. Here is a promise I have from the Bible about people who do such things... "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." (Matthew 5: 10-12)

In the real world, in which I live, 1 + 1 = 2. That is a simple fact. There is no twisting of the facts and no interpretations needed. In nature, it takes a man's sperm and a woman's egg to reproduce. The sex organs of a man and a woman are created to fit inside of each other. That's not religion, not politics, not a form or government, and not a constitutional fact. It is a fact of nature. You can twist it or alter it in any way your imagination can carry it. But, that twisting doesn't fit in your 1 + 1 = 2 model. That model is simple and clear as day. So is marriage equaling a union of a man and a woman.

The Bible and nature are clearly against homosexuality as a normal behavior pattern in humans. Just because we don't agree on this issue, does not make ME a liar or a bad person.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2008 09:30 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Debra, the other side of the argument does not recognize the necessity or even ability of removing one's personal opinion from questions of equality and justice. That's what really gets me about this discussion.


Equality: not all people are equal, not all beliefs are equal, Nature is not equal. You can strive for equality all you want, you can try to impose equality all you want, but you will never get there. Those who demand equality are living in a fantasy land, which is not helpful to the human race.

Personal opinion: at the end of the day that is all we have, our opinion, our code, our morality. I am my brother's keeper, my opinion does count for something.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2008 09:40 pm
@Copper Seth,
Quote:
You can disagree all you want about whether or not homosexuality is a sinfull lifestyle. God is the same today as he was yesterday and will be tomorrow. He will always view homosexuality as a sinfull lifestyle whether you do or not.


You have no idea whether any of this is true or not. You have simply chosen to believe it is. Now you seek to use your choices to limit other people's choices. That's short-sighted, wrong, and bigoted of you to do.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2008 09:44 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Debra, the other side of the argument does not recognize the necessity or even ability of removing one's personal opinion from questions of equality and justice. That's what really gets me about this discussion.


Equality: not all people are equal, not all beliefs are equal, Nature is not equal. You can strive for equality all you want, you can try to impose equality all you want, but you will never get there. Those who demand equality are living in a fantasy land, which is not helpful to the human race.

Personal opinion: at the end of the day that is all we have, our opinion, our code, our morality. I am my brother's keeper, my opinion does count for something.


The Declaration of Independence, one of the foundational documents of our society, disagrees with you.

Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


The 14th amendment disagrees with you.

Quote:
Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


It is a self-evident truth that all are created equal and all deserve equal protection under the law. Your homophobia is not sufficient justification to deny the rights that others would enjoy under our system; it is just an opinion you have, that you are somehow intrinsically better than others and deserve rights that they do not.

Cycloptichorn
Woiyo9
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 07:06 am
@Cycloptichorn,
There you go again, birdbrain.... Jump right to the "homophobic" level.

The 14th amendment has no basis in this argument as there is issue of law relative to homosexuals being discriminated against.

Again, with the exception of tax filing status, where is the discrimination?
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 10:42 am
@Woiyo9,
Woiyo9 wrote:

There you go again, birdbrain.... Jump right to the "homophobic" level.

The 14th amendment has no basis in this argument as there is issue of law relative to homosexuals being discriminated against.

Again, with the exception of tax filing status, where is the discrimination?


You acknowledge that separate state designations for families are unequal (and thus discriminatory), and then you ask where's the discrimination? You are displaying your bigotry and willingness to oppress the human objects of your prejudice. Given your oppressive mindset, if the state had established a "domestic partnership" for interracial unions and deprived interracial couples of the state designation of "marriage" for their familial relationships, then you would claim there was no discrimination. Yet, there would be state discrimination against interracial couples on the basis of race. Likewise, in the matter at hand, the state is discriminating against gay couples on the basis of sexual orientation.

Why don't YOU read the case, birdbrain:

In re Marriage Cases
http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/archive/S147999.PDF

Excerpts at 81-82, 94-95:

Quote:
. . . The current California statutes, of course, do not assign a name other than marriage for all couples, but instead reserve exclusively to opposite-sex couples the traditional designation of marriage, and assign a different designation " domestic partnership " to the only official family relationship available to same-sex couples.

Whether or not the name “marriage,” in the abstract, is considered a core element of the state constitutional right to marry, one of the core elements of this fundamental right is the right of same-sex couples to have their official family relationship accorded the same dignity, respect, and stature as that accorded to all other officially recognized family relationships. The current statutes " by drawing a distinction between the name assigned to the family relationship available to opposite-sex couples and the name assigned to the family relationship available to same-sex couples, and by reserving the historic and highly respected designation of marriage exclusively to opposite-sex couples while offering same sex couples only the new and unfamiliar designation of domestic partnership " pose a serious risk of denying the official family relationship of same-sex couples the equal dignity and respect that is a core element of the constitutional right to marry. As observed by the City at oral argument, this court’s conclusion in Perez, supra, 32 Cal.2d 711, that the statutory provision barring interracial marriage was unconstitutional, undoubtedly would have been the same even if alternative nomenclature, such as “transracial union,” had been made available to interracial couples.

Accordingly, although we agree with the Attorney General that the provisions of the Domestic Partner Act afford same-sex couples most of the substantive attributes to which they are constitutionally entitled under the state constitutional right to marry, we conclude that the current statutory assignment of different designations to the official family relationship of opposite-sex couples and of same-sex couples properly must be viewed as potentially impinging upon the state constitutional right of same-sex couples to marry.

* * *

By limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples, the marriage statutes, realistically viewed, operate clearly and directly to impose different treatment on gay individuals because of their sexual orientation. By definition, gay individuals are persons who are sexually attracted to persons of the same sex and thus, if inclined to enter into a marriage relationship, would choose to marry a person of their own sex or gender. A statute that limits marriage to a union of persons of opposite sexes, thereby placing marriage outside the reach of couples of the same sex, unquestionably imposes different treatment on the basis of sexual orientation.

In our view, it is sophistic to suggest that this conclusion is avoidable by reason of the circumstance that the marriage statutes permit a gay man or a lesbian to marry someone of the opposite sex, because making such a choice would require the negation of the person’s sexual orientation. Just as a statute that restricted marriage only to couples of the same sex would discriminate against heterosexual persons on the basis of their heterosexual orientation, the current California statutes realistically must be viewed as discriminating against gay persons on the basis of their homosexual orientation.
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 11:21 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Debra, the other side of the argument does not recognize the necessity or even ability of removing one's personal opinion from questions of equality and justice. That's what really gets me about this discussion.


Equality: not all people are equal, not all beliefs are equal, Nature is not equal. You can strive for equality all you want, you can try to impose equality all you want, but you will never get there. Those who demand equality are living in a fantasy land, which is not helpful to the human race.

Personal opinion: at the end of the day that is all we have, our opinion, our code, our morality. I am my brother's keeper, my opinion does count for something.


The Declaration of Independence, one of the foundational documents of our society, disagrees with you.

Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


The 14th amendment disagrees with you.

Quote:
Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


It is a self-evident truth that all are created equal and all deserve equal protection under the law. Your homophobia is not sufficient justification to deny the rights that others would enjoy under our system; it is just an opinion you have, that you are somehow intrinsically better than others and deserve rights that they do not.

Cycloptichorn


Excellent. I would also add the Preamble to the Constitution:

Quote:
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


Although "promoting" the general welfare is a legitimate government interest, "SECURING" the blessings of liberty is a constitutional mandate. Our founders did not surrender the entire universe of liberty to the government merely to have some of those liberty interests conferred back to us. They surrendered NOTHING. Because our founders understood that liberty could be lost through majoritarian oppression, they framed our government to protect and secure ALL of us from that evil. Thus, we are a nation of laws (constitutional republic), not of men (pure democracy). Our government may not deny or disparage individual liberty interests unless doing so is NECESSARY to serve a COMPELLING state interest. A majoritarian desire to oppress disfavored individuals or minorities through the operation of our laws is not a legitimate, let alone compelling, state interest.

0 Replies
 
Woiyo9
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 11:32 am
@Debra Law,
Debra Law =
Quote:
Accordingly, although we agree with the Attorney General that the provisions of the Domestic Partner Act afford same-sex couples most of the substantive attributes to which they are constitutionally entitled under the state constitutional right to marry, we conclude that the current statutory assignment of different designations to the official family relationship of opposite-sex couples and of same-sex couples properly must be viewed as potentially impinging upon the state constitutional right of same-sex couples to marry.


This statement you posted proves there is no discrimination against homosexuals. We do not legislate how people "feel".

You so called "elitists" feel good about yourselves when you think you can call people bigots when there is no proof of that within my commentary.

I laugh at you!
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 01:05 pm
@Copper Seth,
Copper Seth wrote:

I have made efforts to controvert the "truth" you espouse. The problem that exists is that you won't listen to the other side in this argument. You only listen to words that confirm what you hold to be true. Maybe if you won't listen to my words, you'll listen to the words of Justice Baxter from our CA Supreme Court in his dissending oppinion to the ruling that overturned Proposition 22...

"I cannot join this exercise in legal jujitsu, by which the Legislature's own weight is used against it to create a constitutional right from whole cloth, defeat the People's will, and invalidate a statute otherwise immune from legislative interference.


The "problem" exists because of your inability to understand and construct a valid argument. An argument consists of one or more premises that support a conclusion. If your premises are false, then your conclusion is invalid and unworthy of any respect. The first sentence that you offer from Justice Baxter's dissenting opinion in the Marriage Cases demonstrate's Justice Baxter's inability to understand and construct a valid argument.

Justice Baxter concluded that the Court "created a constitutional right from whole cloth." In other words, he is claiming that the Court invented a liberty interest that never before existed, (i.e., "gay" marriage). This invalid conclusion is based on the premise that fundamental liberty interests are defined by the persons who are entitled by law to exercise those rights. That premise is FALSE.

MARRIAGE is a fundamental liberty interest secured by the Constitution against government denials or disparagements. The fact that interracial couples or same sex couples have been historically denied the right to marry is not relevant to the identification of the liberty interest at issue. If the truth was otherwise, then the Courts that heard the Loving or Perez cases could have simply ruled that "INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE" in not a "fundamental liberty interest secured by the Constitution" because blacks and whites have been historically denied the right to inter-marry. When the Court ruled that state laws that prohibited interracial marriages violated the equal protection clause, Justice Baxter may have concluded that the Court "created a constitutional right from whole cloth." But his conclusion would have been based on a false premise.

Chief Judge Kaye (NY Court of Appeals) set forth the true premise: "Simply put, fundamental rights are fundamental rights. They are not defined in terms of who is entitled to exercise them."

Once we correctly identify MARRIAGE as the fundamental right that is secured by the Constitution against government denials or disparagements, then we look at the persons who are claiming that the state has denied them the right to marry in violation of the equal protection clause.

The equal protection clause mandates that the government must provide equal treatment to persons who are similarly situated. Homosexual individuals who desire to marry the same-sex person of their choice are similarly situated to heterosexual individuals who desire to marry the opposite-sex person of their choice. Therefore, in order to pass constitutional muster under the equal protection clause, the state statute that discriminates against homosexual individuals must be NECESSARY to serve a COMPELLING state interest. Because the state has absolutely no legitimate, let alone compelling, state interest that is served by depriving gay couples the right to marry, the deprivation is unconstitutional.

Even if a majority of the people desire to discriminate against disfavored individuals or minorities, the Constitution prohibits majoritarian oppression of individuals or minorities. Thus, the "will of the people" does not prevail because our country is not a pure democracy--it's a constitutional republic that SECURES the blessings of liberty from the evil of majoritarian oppression. Therefore, when Justice Baxter concludes that recognizing that the Constitution secures the right to marry for homosexual couples as well as heterosexual couples somehow "defeats the will of the people," he bases that conclusion on the false premise that a majority of the people may negate the constitutional guarantee of equal protection of the law. They cannot. His premise is FALSE.

In other words, Justice Baxter is the one who is engaged in "legal jujitsu" for the illicit purpose of upholding unconstitutional discrimination against homosexual individuals. Because he bases his conclusion upon false premises, his argument is invalid and unworthy of any respect whatsoever. Your ardent desire to engage in irrational verbal gymnastics and to embrace invalid arguments can never justify your abuse of state power for the nefarious purpose of discriminating against homosexuals. In our constitutional republic, you may not impose your religious view that homosexuality is a sin on the rest of society through the operation of our laws. The mere knowledge that other people do not live their lives according to YOUR values is not a legally cognizable "injury."
0 Replies
 
 

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