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@nimh,

The only problem with pulling the lifeguards during adult swim is that no one keeps an eye out for the wandering toddler or cannon-baller.

When the cannon-baller arrives some adults will swim to the other side of the pool, others will yell at him and call him names, some will leave the pool because they won't swim with loose cannons, and still others will climb out of the pool and start cannon-balling or worse (come to blows).

When the toddler wanders the deck some adults will talk nicely to the toddler hoping he'll step back to safer ground, some adults will yell at the toddler hoping they'll scare him away from the edge, some will swim to the middle of the pool hoping to avoid both the toddler and the cannon-baller, and yet others will get out of the pool because they won't swim with kids around.

So, the way I see it is that the whistle has blown for adult swim -- the lifeguards have left the chairs to be called upon only to break up the fist fights or the drowned kid. Each of us gets to decide how we're going to swim in the pool.

1 Reply

@JPB,

If only there was a way to make a wave that only you floated on...

T
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@nimh,

nimh wrote:

Very well said, Caribou. The take of a grown-up.

Your passive aggression is showing here. He who doesn't see things Nimh's way must not be grown up? Bullshit. Deist, CI, Walter, Snood etc. should be subjected to racial slurs… and not only should this be Ignored by management, but all the grown up members as well? Bullshit.

Let's break it down.

caribou wrote:

I have a live and let live attitude

That's nice. For the most part, so do I.

caribou wrote:

If trolls don't get the attention they are seeking, they go somewhere else.

Perhaps this would be true in some utopian fairytale world, where an entire community acted as a monolithic block. That isn't A2K and I doubt I'd find the site very interesting if it was. Holding steadfast to this idealistic, though unrealistic, belief is a piss poor alternative to removing the worst of the worst.

caribou wrote:

I think we are all adults that can stand up for ourselves and do not need knights in shiny armor to take care of us.

I think this is naive, self serving (for the point of this argument) and in many cases untrue. In fact, I've witnessed both Caribou and Nimh be appreciative of their fellow poster's empathy and willingness to go to bat on their behalf. I've also witnessed Nimh on more than a few occasions be that knight in shining armor, going to bat for other members. Sometimes out of empathy, sometimes out of exasperation, sometimes out of disgust... and not only is there nothing inherently childish in the gesture, it is frequently, IMO, the right thing to do… just not, apparently, when he wants to look down his nose at someone else.

caribou wrote:

I think anyone can behave like a troll at times.

Most certainly anyone can and I think most of us do at one point or another. There are notable exceptions, and I must say I usually admire them for it.

caribou wrote:

Trolls in shiny armor can still be trolls.

Obviously.

caribou wrote:

Mud slinging/name calling is a messy business.

Obviously.

caribou wrote:

It's hard to stay clean when you play in the basement.

Obviously.

Now I would agree with Nimh’s sentiment that this was The take of a grown-up. insofar as I would agree that Caribou is a grown up and her view is very mature (and personally, I think she’s a very nice person as well.) I take exception to Nimh’s passive aggressive implication that those who don’t share the take, must not view things as grown ups.

At some point a rational thinker has to face the simple truth that sometimes trolls will succeed in eliciting the proscribed response. In some cases, would-be victims will be comforted by this interference. For instance: A grown up person may feel compelled to reassure an insecure person that they aren’t really fat, stupid, or crazy by taking issue with the accuser… and this may very well take precedence over one’s desire not to feed a troll. A reminder that we’re not all racists I assume is comforting. An emotionally distraught person may very well take comfort in reminders that all men don’t think like a misogynistic piece of ****.

I agree that starving a troll is an effective deterrent. But I don’t always agree that deterring a troll is the most compelling issue…

More direct measures should be taken to address the trolls’ purposeful use of racial attacks against Deist, C.I., Walter, Snood, etc… not only for their own benefit; but also the benefit of anyone who may look like them who happens onto the site and will only be encouraged to happen back off permanently as this misguided tolerance will likely be interpreted as acceptable in the community; thereby reducing the appeal of the community itself.

This idealistic holier than thou attitude of “I can Ignore it and you should just tolerate it too” too often results in derailed threads, hurt feelings of the innocent, and the net loss of input from (value adding) members who will choose not to suffer excess trolling and spend their time elsewhere. It is a strategic error to cater to the troll or rape-advocate, if their disruptive (and in some cases disgusting) behavior too often results in the stifling of intelligent, reasonable conversation. I don’t always think it best, or most grown up, to allow mean spirited, racial, misogynistic, or otherwise offensive bullshit to go unchecked. And anyone who thinks that makes me less grown up can kiss my ass.

3 Replies

@OCCOM BILL,

I agree, and in fewer and less heated words: I just want to feel like my interests and comfort are valued in this community. If they are not, I have to wonder if it's worth staying around.

My comfort is not a matter of my ideas being challenged, that I can handle, but I don't need to wonder if I'm going to get sideswiped by someone making sport of offending people.

I know that if someone came into my house and made my guests feel threatened or offended, I'd ask them to leave. It's not an attack on their freedom of speech; they can go speak their mind anywhere else as far as I'm concerned. The same goes here in my opinion, you can ask your members/contributors to tolerate it or leave or you can address the problem.

Inaction is a very loud statement.

T
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1 Reply

@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

He who doesn't see things Nimh's way must not be grown up? Bullshit.

Well, that second sentence does describe the characterisation in the first one well Wink

Otherwise, dude. Take it down a notch will ya? Someone states her opinion, nothing offensive said, just her opinion about what would solve the problem, and you go galloping on about "your sophomoric pseudo-wisdom"? And now this?

C'mon. Breathe.

1 Reply

@nimh,

nimh wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:

He who doesn't see things Nimh's way must not be grown up? Bullshit.

Well, that second sentence does describe the characterisation in the first one well

Otherwise, dude. Take it down a notch will ya? Someone states her opinion, nothing offensive said, just her opinion about what would solve the problem, and you go galloping on about "your sophomoric pseudo-wisdom"? And now this?

C'mon. Breathe.

nimh wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:

He who doesn't see things Nimh's way must not be grown up? Bullshit.

Well, that second sentence does describe the characterisation in the first one well

Cute.

nimh wrote:

Otherwise, dude. Take it down a notch will ya? Someone states her opinion, nothing offensive said, just her opinion about what would solve the problem, and you go galloping on about "your sophomoric pseudo-wisdom"? And now this?

Her statement contained the same brand of passive aggression as yours (it's not an infrequently recurring thing, but this is the first time I chose to address it), and I commented accordingly. Sophomoric pseudo-wisdom was accurate insofar as beyond being obvious and obviously not a comprehensive solution; it was a useless statement being used as a vehicle to deliver her passive aggressive shot. I don’t much care if you recognize it as such or not.

nimh wrote:

C'mon. Breathe.

My breathing is steady Nimh. It is more of a style issue that I tend to overstate my opinions (and yes, I know, to a fault.)

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@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

This idealistic holier than thou attitude of “I can Ignore it and you should just tolerate it too” too often results in derailed threads, hurt feelings of the innocent, and the net loss of input from (value adding) members who will choose not to suffer excess trolling and spend their time elsewhere. It is a strategic error to cater to the troll or rape-advocate, if their disruptive (and in some cases disgusting) behavior too often results in the stifling of intelligent, reasonable conversation. I don’t always think it best, or most grown up, to allow mean spirited, racial, misogynistic, or otherwise offensive bullshit to go unchecked. And anyone who thinks that makes me less grown up can kiss my ass.

And here I'd been thinking that your idealistic holier-than-thou attitude (As a Trolltacker) resulted in the same things: derailed threads, and the net loss of input from (value adding) members who will choose not to suffer excess trolling and spend their time elsewhere.

OCCOM BILL wrote:

It is a strategic error to cater to the troll or rape-advocate, if their disruptive (and in some cases disgusting) behavior too often results in the stifling of intelligent, reasonable conversation.

But, you, as Trolltacker, are catering to exactly what they are looking for -attention. And your responses are just as disruptive as theirs.

And, I personally, at times, find your posts more disturbing then their posts. Them, I can ignore as I'm scanning threads. You, I read because you can say interesting things, but when I get to one of your troll attacks and name-calling, I'm horrified.
(One example: Reading the word rapist, over and over again, bothers me more than the poster you are referring to. His threads I can ignore. You popping the word rapist in randomly is more difficult to ignore.)

Trolltackers sometimes end up sounding as bad, if not worse, as the trolls they are trying to stop.

3 Replies

@caribou,

Amen to that. If you don't want to see it then you can ignore it, if you don't want others to see it you can vote it down (and it will collapse for them by default) but repeating it, quoting it, feeding it is to just wallow in it and spread it around.

2 Replies

@caribou,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

My breathing is steady Nimh. It is more of a style issue that I tend to overstate my opinions (and yes, I know, to a fault.)

OK.

caribou wrote:

[Y]ou, as Trolltacker, are catering to exactly what they are looking for -attention. And your responses are just as disruptive as theirs.

[..] Them, I can ignore as I'm scanning threads. You, I read because you can say interesting things, but when I get to one of your troll attacks and name-calling, I'm horrified.

(One example: Reading the word rapist, over and over again, bothers me more than the poster you are referring to. His threads I can ignore. You popping the word rapist in randomly is more difficult to ignore.)

Trolltackers sometimes end up sounding as bad, if not worse, as the trolls they are trying to stop.

Amen to all that. That's the stuff I'm thinking of when I talk about what I consider a grown-up reaction and what not.

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@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

Amen to that. If you don't want to see it then you can ignore it, if you don't want others to see it you can vote it down (and it will collapse for them by default) but repeating it, quoting it, feeding it is to just wallow in it and spread it around.

Ignore it until they get another name and come back? This is not a solution.

Since it appears there is no hope of A2K taking action, I think I deserve to know if inaction was the result of inability or the lack of will to do something. I think I deserve the honesty about this too.

Either A2K cares or it does not. I would like to know in simple terms.

T
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1 Reply

@Diest TKO,

Diest TKO wrote:

Since it appears there is no hope of A2K taking action, I think I deserve to know if inaction was the result of inability or the lack of will to do something. I think I deserve the honesty about this too.

I don't think public calls to ban members is the way to run a site, nor do I think that administrative actions against a specific member should be announced.

1 Reply

@caribou,

caribou wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:

This idealistic holier than thou attitude of “I can Ignore it and you should just tolerate it too” too often results in derailed threads, hurt feelings of the innocent, and the net loss of input from (value adding) members who will choose not to suffer excess trolling and spend their time elsewhere. It is a strategic error to cater to the troll or rape-advocate, if their disruptive (and in some cases disgusting) behavior too often results in the stifling of intelligent, reasonable conversation. I don’t always think it best, or most grown up, to allow mean spirited, racial, misogynistic, or otherwise offensive bullshit to go unchecked. And anyone who thinks that makes me less grown up can kiss my ass.

And here I'd been thinking that your idealistic holier-than-thou attitude (As a Trolltacker) resulted in the same things: derailed threads, and the net loss of input from (value adding) members who will choose not to suffer excess trolling and spend their time elsewhere.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
It is a strategic error to cater to the troll or rape-advocate, if their disruptive (and in some cases disgusting) behavior too often results in the stifling of intelligent, reasonable conversation.

But, you, as Trolltacker, are catering to exactly what they are looking for -attention. And your responses are just as disruptive as theirs.

And, I personally, at times, find your posts more disturbing then their posts. Them, I can ignore as I'm scanning threads. You, I read because you can say interesting things, but when I get to one of your troll attacks and name-calling, I'm horrified.
(One example: Reading the word rapist, over and over again, bothers me more than the poster you are referring to. His threads I can ignore. You popping the word rapist in randomly is more difficult to ignore.)

Trolltackers sometimes end up sounding as bad, if not worse, as the trolls they are trying to stop.

This is certainly all fair enough and in many ways true. It is also distinctly ignoring the cause of both, which is the continued presence of well known, clearly identified and almost universally despised trolls.

I suffer the same side effects of troll-presence as you do when I do choose to Ignore the trolls, which should only serve to clarify that the Ignore and Rating systems, while fabulous for evaluating content, is insufficient to deal effectively with trolls.

I do not respond to every, or even most provocations from the trolls. Nor am I, by any stretch of the imagination, as much as you'd like to see me do it your way ALL the time, the cause of their trolling. Their trolling results in plenty of people being provoked and regardless of how many people Robert thinks he can reasonably persuade to ignore them; the day will never come that everyone does. Their continued presence is the foremost reason disruption happens, and I find it rather offensive that the victims of their inane attacks should shoulder any (let alone most) of the blame. The victim of a racial slur has every right to respond. So does anyone else who feels unjustly attacked… along with everyone else who is disturbed by the troll.

Why choose to cherry pick the portions of argument that can be aligned with the disturbance of the initial trolling; while ignoring the reasonable reasons for response I’ve offered in example? Why Ignore the simple fact that the trolls removal would be a far better solution? Removing the troll would eliminate both the initial offensive effect as well as the resulting side effects so many of you hold in disdain. By putting your priorities for bitching in such an illogically backwards order; you are encouraging Robert to continue catering to trolls.

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@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

Amen to that. If you don't want to see it then you can ignore it, if you don't want others to see it you can vote it down (and it will collapse for them by default) but repeating it, quoting it, feeding it is to just wallow in it and spread it around.

Wrong Robert: This is your responsibility, not mine. If people are being regularly victimized by asinine behavior at my place; I hold the culprit responsible, not those who respond. How many of the unfairly attacked and people who find your inaction as asinine will you watch leave before abandoning this idealistic foolishness that ignoring a bully is a comprehensive solution. It isn’t. 95% of this distraction would simply disappear with the troll… and will as soon as you choose to address the problem, rather than pretending Ignoring=solution.

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

Actions should be observable though.

Non-dimensionalize this for me then. Remove myself from this. Remove a specific member from this. Just tell me whether or not A2k does or does not have the ability to IP ban. I don't need to know your plans, I assume those will be transparent enough, I just want to know your ability.

Meanwhile, racial slurs continue to be protected.

T
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1 Reply

@Diest TKO,

I don't want to advertise the specifics of the tools we use, given that it's a cat and mouse game when we need to use them, so I'm not going to go into detail. But to answer your question a feature like that exists but is not anywhere near finished.

1 Reply

@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

Wrong Robert: This is your responsibility, not mine. If people are being regularly victimized by asinine behavior at my place...

Your asinine behavior is what I was talking about, and yes that is your responsibility.

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

Thank you. That's all I ask for is for honesty. I don't know why the specifics of the site's abilities would need to be so cloak and dagger, but I highly suggest the development of said tool.

Beyond that, I would like a posting on forum rules of conduct that would be immediately accessible from the home page and/or a part of setting up a new profile. That way if a user is obviously out of line and harassing the community or it's individuals, they will be doing so knowing the consequences of their actions which should include banning.

A proactive stance would be much better leadership on this. I think all can agree on that.

T
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@Diest TKO,

Diest TKO wrote:

I think all can agree on that.

I certainly don't think everyone wants the same degree of censorship that you do and would caution against thinking you speak for all.

1 Reply

@Diest TKO,

I think you'd be mistaken about what you think "all can agree on".

0 Replies

@Diest TKO,

Diest TKO wrote:

I agree, and in fewer and less heated words: I just want to feel like my interests and comfort are valued in this community. If they are not, I have to wonder if it's worth staying around.

My comfort is not a matter of my ideas being challenged, that I can handle, but I don't need to wonder if I'm going to get sideswiped by someone making sport of offending people.

I know that if someone came into my house and made my guests feel threatened or offended, I'd ask them to leave. It's not an attack on their freedom of speech; they can go speak their mind anywhere else as far as I'm concerned. The same goes here in my opinion, you can ask your members/contributors to tolerate it or leave or you can address the problem.

Inaction is a very loud statement.

T
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I am very sorry that you, or anyone here, is being subjected to racist attacks....(ditto with the misogynist etc. stuff.)

I don't think that such attacks by a few trolls here mean that you, and your interests and comfort, are not valued in the community.

I understand that you are speaking of management policy more than members, and I personally agree that I would like to see repeat offenders in such matters excluded, but I am well aware that, given that there are as many views on such matters as there are members, that people running such a site as this can only act upon their best thought out values, beliefs and experience.

Whatever decisions are made will annoy and distress SOMEONE. (Not infrequently me!) I was very much in disagreement with some of the much relaxed policies when enacted on the old site, (while enjoying benefitting from them from time to time), without the technology that is available here, but I must say that I am finding that the technology works well for me.

I very much understand the strength of your feeling on this sort of issue, and I have expressed similar views very heatedly at times ....but I never thought, and I think it's a little unfair to assume that, someone/s not being excluded, or their unpleasant detritus removed, means that the people running the site do not care about such things as racial slurs, and their effect on people.

The majority of the community certainly does....though it may be that having offenders being put on Ignore by many people, means that this community support is not as evident as it once was????

Anyhoo, I know that feeling passionate about something that is very hurtful or disgusting to us here is a difficult thing, and I am sorry that you have experienced this sort of attack.

2 Replies

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