OCCOM BILL wrote:
Btw, Robert, your contention that those who respond to trolls thwart your system is a nonsensical argument.
It's also not the argument I made Bill, and I don't really see much utility in continuing to talk past each other. The point I was making is that you yourself are considered a troll to others, and while you may think it's only in the role of the white knight responding to trolls not everyone is going to feel that way. So you assume that there's a universal black and white, and that you are good and they are bad when in reality there's a lot of different opinions here and you don't speak for everyone.
I've said most of what I have to say on this, so if you want to repeat the mantra that this is "catering" and all have at it but I don't really have the time to rinse wash and repeat ad nauseum. I can't please everyone and will just continue to do the best I can. I understand that people want to vent, tell me how decisions are stupid, that they are going to leave (again), that they have lost confidence, that the leadership sucks and all. So have at it, but I don't have the time to play punching bag for every person here who is unhappy with something about the site, so I'll have to move on unless you have something specifically new to say.
If you just want to repeat the mantra that this is catering to trolls we'll have to agree to disagree and I wonder if you could consider that even if you are right and I am wrong that my intentions aren't to cater to trolls and that reasonable people can disagree on what the best way to address them is.
If you can't, and can just cast aspersions on me or my intentions then there's little profit in going through the motions all over again.
If this is true, you system needs a tweak: Namely, the system’s assumption that a response is necessarily a vote up… that’s silly.
That was changed a while ago. Now the topics are auto voted up but the individual posts aren't. The individual posts are also showing the negatives again.
Lots of other tweaks will happen, but the fundamental values are going to remain the same. You can't expect to try to bludgeon the site into accepting your specific views on censorship. You have a vote like everyone else does and you can use it to remove content for yourself and for others (if enough of the others agree with you), but we aren't going to return to top-down moderation. We may intervene manually in the system to address specific disruptive patterns but the overall big picture is that you have a vote about what should be done and you should use it.
Complaining that we won't do it for you and that everyone agrees is silly, you only need a handful of like-minded individuals to remove the offensive content for everyone who wants that kind of content removed.
You have control over your own experience, and you have influence on the experience of others who want you to have that influence. The only thing you lack is the ability to impose this on those who don't want you to. And you shouldn't.
So while a lot of the tools for the users to moderate the site will change and while they need a heck of a lot more improvement (if you read the blog you'll see that private messaging has been put off to address some of it) the basic site principles remain the same:
Let users have as much control as possible over their own experience.
Let the collective community provide their collective standard.
Let users who don't want to let the community interfere in their experience opt out.
On a fundamental level, we aren't going to return to one authority (site staff) determining the experience for all. We'll make it easier for users to remove the content that they, and others like them want to remove and there's a lot more we need to do to make this work better, on a fundamental level we are doing some things wrong that we are addressing as we can. But we aren't going to satisfy those who want to dictate it for all because that isn't the principles we are building on.
Now once we get those things out of the way, there's actually going to be something you might like. We are going to make more areas of the site with more individual and group controls. So you'll be able to have your own forums here and run them with your own moderators and manage it however the heck you want.
I'm looking forward to that. I plan on making a group with no blowhards. I won't be allowed into it by definition, but it'd be fun to read. You can read it along with me ;-) when it happens or go make the "slaying ground of trolls" forum and do whatever you want with it.