Whoops Gosh Sorry About All The Screaming American Dead

Look I am imitating a liberal...

*scroll*

That piece was written because Mark thought up a couple of, he thought funny, names for Rumsfeld, Bush and Cheney and needed somewhere to put them. He also indicates his denial that terrorist will do what they do no matter what, and seems to subscribe to the notion there were no terrorist before this war that want to kill American's, soldiers or civilian. What an idiot.

Sounds to me like you are getting to these guys, BBB.

Good for you!

bbb is informed that some of us still remember that 3,000 people were burned and buried in the WTC on 9/11/2001.

BBB's opinion is that 297 soldiers are too many to make sure it does not happen again.

BBB surely knows that President Bush said that although there is no evidence that Saddam was directly involved with 9/11, Saddam is certainly LINKED to AlQaeda.

Two Hundred Ninety Seven Lives are too many.

We weep for all of them.

3,000 people murdered ( not in battle, not when they were able to defend themselves) in the WTC is also too many.

I don't know where BBB lives but Chicago is far more dangerous than Iraq. Over 450 people were murdered last year.

BBB is obviously ignorant of History.

Harry S. Truman, a great President ordered Bombs to be dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima to bring World War II to an end.

The "bleeding hearts" of the time cried Shame!

What they did not realize is that Millions of Americans would have died had Truman not dropped the bomb.

I challenge BBB to PROVE- PROVE that our invasion of Iraq did not stem the tide of Terrorism.

I am sure that BBB knows that there has not been another attack in the USA since 9/11.

Can BBB PROVE that our willingness to confront Iraq did not make our country safer??

Italgato, please support your claim that millions of Americans would have died had the bombs not been dropped. You are probably well aware of the history behind that claim and how it is often adjusted at the lobbying of special interest groups (e.g. when the Enola Gay went on display veterans lobbied for the Smithsonian institute to increase the estimate of deaths by invasion).

Surely Mr Italgato must know that the estimates of what would have happened are conjecture. Or opinion. It would be nice if you would label it as such.

It is your (and other's) OPINION that millions would have died. There is no evidence to support the conjecture as it is just a guestimate and depending on political inclination the estimate is altered to one's liking.

I would respectfully posit that the opinion about how many casualties the invasion would have had has as much merit when positing it as a fact as would positing the future lottery results as a fact have.

P.S. the article was absolute drek.

Well, Mr. De Kere: The number of people who would have died is an estimate. Let me give you some data:

John Toland- "The Rising Sun" P. 9410

"There was no question in General Marshall's mind that the bomb should be used to end the war quickly and save American lives."

quote from General Marshall in "Truman" by McCullough

P. 395

" We had just been through a bitter experience at Okinawa. This had been preceded by a number of similar experiences in other Pacific islands( The first day of the invasion of Iwo Jima had been more costly than D-Day in Normandy. The Japanese had demonstrated in each case they would not surrender and would fight to the death"

(Those who do not remember History are fated to repeat it)

Quote from McCullough continued-

"We had had one hundred thousand people killed in Tokyo in one night of bombs andf it had seemingly had no effect whatsoever"

Marshall estimated that the casualties in only the first thirty days to be at least 31,000. McArthur's staff estimated 50,000.

"The number of Americans dead and wounded, Stimson feared, could reach a Million"

General Thomas Hardy of Marshall's staff said America would save no less than 500,000 to one milliion lives by avoiding the invasion altogether."


I must be forgiven for relying on what I view as "expertise"- Military and Administration expertise.

Since the invasion did not occur, it is impossible to determing how many would be killed, but, if the invasions of Okinawa and Iwo Jima were any guide, Hundreds of thousands and perhaps a million were not out of the question.

Certainly, there would have been many many times the 237 listed by BBB.

Italgato,

I didn't care for most of the quotes (which were just more conjecture) but thoroughly appreciated the following (which had a foundation of factual basis):

"We had had one hundred thousand people killed in Tokyo in one night of bombs and it had seemingly had no effect whatsoever"

I do think Americans greatly exaggerated Japanese determination through the dehumanization of them in the culture of that era.

I have lived in Japan extensively and although history obviously conflicts from culture to culture, interestingly in Japan the ledgend of insane, unreasonable, would-never-surrender Japanese does not get the same play as it does stateside.

I chalk it up to different perspective.

My Uncle was at Iwo, Mr. DeKere. I am afraid he wouldn't agree with you.

....well Bumble. You may have finally got the attention you want. After your (how many is it) stupid recipes. Finally, you get the idea that if you post something that so many people have many emotions about you will get a response, and attention.
Go take your ADHD medicine.
"Gosh, sorry about the all the screaming American dead"---tisk tisk poor taste!

max,

That was decidedly uncalled for. They may be stupid to you but I appreciated them far more than any of your contributions.

Italgato,

You miss the point, of course your uncle would disagree. Like I said, the difference in the characterization of the Japanese in the war was acute.

If you asked people on each side who the enemy was I bet you'd get conflicting answers as well.

Also interesting in this regard, however, was the seeming ineffectiveness in terms of destroying morale, and encouraging surrender, of massive bombing of British civilians in the Blitz - and of German civilians by the Allies. Sigh.

If anyone wishes to really, fully understand war and what it means, please read "We Were Soldiers Once ..... and Young". The full meaning is there, real and in a very well formed, balanced viewpoint.

Thanks!!!!!!!!

When I was a boy, the common perception of almost any Asian, particularly Japanese or Chinese, was skewed so far from reality that they could not have been human at all - much too evil and treacherous. Any exaggeration of Japan's willingness to fight to the last person was readily believed by most everybody. I have known quite a few Japanese in my time since then - wonderful people, all - and I have to think those bombs should have been dropped some place nearby to demonstrate their awesome power instead of wholesale killing like they did. Then, too, I understand the collective mind of nations at war, and I believe most involved with those bombs thought it their duty to drop them where they actually did, and that no other location would do. What this has to do with conquering a powerless nation like Iraq is beyond me.

Italgato
Italgato, I suggest that you clean your glasses before reading my A2K posts. Don't you think you should direct your demand for facts to the author of the article that I posted, not to me? You may try to kill the messanger, but it won't work with me.

Scroll---BumbleBeeBoogie

Italgato
Italgato, as the originator of this topic I don't appreciate your ruse of redirecting the topic to another subject you wish to discuss. My topic was to post an author's opinion and a news article about the dead in Iraq.

It is disrespectful of you to use your response to sabotage the topic of my post. It is unseemly behavior on A2K to try to subvert the participation of A2Kers to your own agenda as I've seen you do on many occasions.

I request that other A2Kers not allow you to get away with this behavior by ignoring your posts that engage in that tactic.

When you decide not to be uncouth I may take you seriously. Until then, I suggest you go to your room and stay there until you grow up and learn to behave. SPANK!

---BumbleBeeBoogie

Max
Max, whose mind were you reading? Not mine.

Scroll---BumbleBeeBoogie

Mr. De Kere: You call the articles "Conjecture". Meaning there is no proof of what the American Generals said about possible casualties if the War were to be prolonged in the Pacific.

I disagree. I would not say- "conjecture", I would say- Informed Opinion.

I quote the late great Mortimer Adler

"We find that experts whoare cometgent to judge have reached agreements about a host of judgments that they have come to regard as settled or established truthss in their respective fields. This does not mean. of course, that all these agreed upon thruths have the finality and incorrigiblity of certitude. It means only that the shadow of a doubt that still hangs over them because of what an uncharted future has in store DOES NOT at the present moment threaten their status as an established truth, temporarily UNDISPUTED BY EXPERTS COMPETENT TO JUDGE"

end of quote.

No, Mr. De Kere- Not Conjecture, but rather informed opinion.

BBB_ You would not want to send me to my room to spank because since I AM 6fT. 5In. and weigh 245 lbs. Your comment was uncalled for.

I apologize if I disrupted your presentation.

I did not know that it was forbidden to post an idea challenging yours.

I was not aware that my post of 3:16 pm led anyone far afield.

I was not aware that responding to Mr. DeKere was not allowed.
'
I will be most careful not to direct my demands to the author of the post as you suggest.

But I strongly suggest that you refrain from childish comments like SPANK.

As I said, no one has spanked me since I was four years old. I am sure you couldn't.

Italgato
Italgato, when someone exhibits disrespectful behavior, I assume it is the ill-mannered child in him coming out. Hence the time out in one's room.

The adult thing to have done if you wanted to discuss the atom bombing of Japan was to start a new topic post devoted to that subject, not to subvert my post about military deaths in Iraq. Your topic was not germane to my topic and showed disrespect to me.

Childish behavior deserves a childish remedy. Physical size does not grant you the right to subvert the civility and courtesy standards of A2K. The fact that you tried it reduces your stature to that of a four year old. When your posting behavior earns my respect you will receive it. I've verbally brought bigger men than you to their knees when they deserved it. So don't mess with BumbleBeeBoogie.

---BumbleBeeBoogie