Suggestion: Open (not anonymous) thread voting.

@Cycloptichorn,

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Thumbs up and thumbs down had a clearly defined meaning before A2K started using them, and I think you will agree with me that it wasn't 'this is what I am interested in' and 'this is what I am not interested in.' It is commonly used as a value judgment of content. Siskel and Ebert didn't give movies thumbs down because they weren't interested in watching them, they did because they didn't like them.

Hollywood invented it:

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It is known that the audience (or sponsor or emperor) pointed their thumbs a certain way if they wanted the loser to be killed (called a pollice verso, literally "with turned thumb"), but it is not clear which way they actually pointed. A thumbs up (called pollux infestus) was an insult to Romans so is unlikely to have meant sparing a life. The clear "thumbs up" and "thumbs down" image is not a product of historical sources, but of Hollywood and epic films such as Quo Vadis. It is thought they may have raised their fist with the thumb inside it (pollice compresso, literally "compressed thumbs") if they wanted the loser to live. One popular belief is that the "thumbs down" meant lower your weapon, and let the loser live and a thumbs up sign pointed towards the throat or chest, signaled the gladiator to stab him there. Some scholars believe that a hand movement was involved as the notion of "turning" does not seem to fit the action of merely extending a thumb. One of the few sources to allude to the use of the "thumbs up" and "thumbs down" gestures in the Roman arena comes from Satire III of Juvenal (3.34-37) and seems to indicate that, contrary to modern usage, the thumbs down signified that the losing gladiator was to be spared and that the thumbs up meant he was to be killed. A carved relief of a gladiator being spared also exists that shows the hand "sign" as a thumb laid flat along the hand (pressed?) with two fingers extended and two clenched. This has led some to believe those who wanted the gladiator killed waved their thumbs in any direction they wanted, and those who wanted him spared kept their thumbs pressed against their hands.

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@OCCOM BILL,

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I get the point that thumbs down for a Thread simply means "I don't care to see this". (I still question the utility of this, but OK).

I haven't seen any reason that "thumbs down" votes should be anonymous.

Does anyone have a argument for anonymous down-thumbing?

I've thumbed down dozens of topics to get them off my jump station, which is now a clean navigating machine. I meant no offense to the thread authors; I'm just not interested in the subjects. Why should I have to explain that to each and every thread author that wants to take offense to my innocent act of cleaning up my desktop? At the same time; I've thumbed up every thread that I am interested, so when ya'll clean up your desks it will have NO EFFECT on mine.

Doesn't it make more sense for the people who think it's a personal affront to learn the simple truth that it isn't?

Not to pick on gamers; but why should people who have no interest in games have to scroll through dozens of them, just so the authors of same don't take the innocent act of desk cleaning as a personal affront? That's just silly. As Cyclo pointed out earlier, while making the opposite argument; it doesn't matter how Craven wants the tools used; people will use them how they see fit. That being the case; why would anyone NOT want to clear something they know they have no interest in out of their own, personal, cyberspace forever? And what kind of a dolt will continue to take it personal, when they understand that that's all people are doing?

Well, the point is that new users - which over time really are the lifeblood of the site, as us oldsters can't support it forever - don't know what the thumbs up and thumbs down mean. And the meaning on this site is not the traditional meaning of the term, I don't think anyone is arguing that.

Look, we could all agree that every single time you say 'up' on A2K, what you really mean is 'left.' Thomas and Soz and others could post how they read the manuals for the site, and how hard is it to understand that the terms mean something different here? And a new person who comes along and visits the site f0r the first time, looking for a certain type of chat (just like I did years ago) won't be clued in to the code, and guess what? Thumbs up and thumbs down are popularly and commonly used as value judgments, not ways to hide things you don't want to see.

I'm fine with having special and different definitions for terms here then in common usage. I just don't expect new people to catch on to them and neither should anyone else; why would they? How many new users read the manual before trying their products? On a site which is basically supported by advertising, scaring away possible customers by making your content foreign and different then traditional definitions doesn't seem like a good game plan.

The other question I have is: how are posts sorted by default? Do they sort by 'most votes' by default? This system is destined to confuse the new people who come in, as there is no real way for them to differentiate between a post in which you disagree with topic and one which you just think is unimportant or don't want to see.

There needs to be a better way to 'ignore topic' then actions which affect other people's ability to see those topics when they first arrive.

There have been several posters who have expressed the same feelings about the use of thumbs up/down as I have, and the same group of users has responded with derision to their concerns, and I have to wonder: is blowing us off really the best way to deal with issues such as this?

Cycloptichorn

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@DrewDad,

Really?

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I have a three-year-old. That kinda fills up my tolerance for whining.

I have no problem with reading a well-thought argument, and taking the good points from it.

Make a case for why voting should be done your way instead of Craven's, and I'll happily read it, agree or disagree on the merits, and share my thoughts.

But shrill shouts of "it should be done my way 'CAUSE THAT'S THE WAY I WANT IT!" will get nothing but derision from me.

Why don't you link to where I was whining, or demanding that things are done the way I want it. Please, go ahead. Because I did nothing like that at all in this thread, and you have just decided that being a jerk is what you would like to do today.

I expressed concerns with the way it was done, I didn't suggest that we should scrap it and I didn't demand that it be done another way. So dial it down a little, mkay?

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

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And the meaning on this site is not the traditional meaning of the term, I don't think anyone is arguing that.

<raises hand>

I'm arguing it. Just for the sake of it.

What is the "traditional meaning of the term", exactly?

EDIT:

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There needs to be a better way to 'ignore topic' then actions which affect other people's ability to see those topics when they first arrive.

That's a different argument from the one you or ebrown made initially, but it seems to be a valid concern. The fact that many people seem to change the setting to "Sort By: New Posts" seems to point to a problem.

Not sure what it has to do with open or anonymous voting, though...

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@OCCOM BILL,

Hello. I'm a wild eye liberal lass. I voted up for your Homosexual thread because I liked the sensible wording of the opening post, and plan to read more at some point, therefore I want to see it on my list. If I see the Michelle Obama thread again, I'll vote it down, not because I'd never be interested in a discussion about her such as Craven mentioned, but not THIS discussion, as evinced by the tone of even the title. It's also possible, even probable, that I might be in one of my no-politics-thread moods and be cleaning my slate by minimizing what threads I'm not interested in that week. I can always go to the politics page and open all the ones I collapsed for myself..

Now, Rex, if people like me who have No Collapsing for the setting in our preferences follow threads by using the NEW POSTS option, no one else's vote but mine will collapse threads on that page. You don't seem to understand that.

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@Cycloptichorn,

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Thumbs up and thumbs down are popularly and commonly used as value judgments, not ways to hide things you don't want to see.

And they are value judgments here too. Hiding what you don't want to see is just one good example of how value judgments are not always a bad thing because they can serve as a collective editorializing of the content.

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@ossobuco,

Oops, my last post should have been a reply to RexRed, not O'Bill.

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@old europe,

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What is the "traditional meaning of the term", exactly?

From Wikipedia:

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A thumbs up or thumbs down is a common gesture represented by a closed fist held with the thumb extended upward or downward in approval or disapproval respectively. These gestures have become metaphors in English: "My boss gave my proposal the thumbs-up" means that the boss approved the proposal, regardless of whether the gesture was made " indeed, the gesture itself is unlikely in a formal business setting.

The source of the gesture is obscure, but a number of origins have been proposed.

Thumbs up, approval; thumbs down, disapproval. In nobody's world does thumbs down refer to 'disinterested.'

In popular American culture,

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More recently, these gestures are associated with movie reviews, having been popularized by critics Gene Siskel and Roger Ebert on their televised review show Siskel & Ebert " the thumb up meaning a positive opinion of a film; the thumb down meaning a negative one. The trademarked phrase "two thumbs up", originally meaning a positive review from both reviewers, has come to be used as an indication of very high quality or unanimity of praise.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

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Thumbs up and thumbs down are popularly and commonly used as value judgments, not ways to hide things you don't want to see.

And they are value judgments here too. Hiding what you don't want to see is just one good example of how value judgments are not always a bad thing because they can serve as a collective editorializing of the content.

My question is, if I see a post with 7 thumbs down, how do I know which are value judgments, and which are attempts to move the post down due to disinterest? Is there a difference in your book?

Cycloptichorn

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@Cycloptichorn,

OK.

It's whining because you just complained without proposing a replacement. Give us a detailed description of what would work better, in your opinion.

And here's what took it over the top for me:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Well, it matters to ME, and that's the point, isn't it?

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

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My question is, if I see a post with 7 thumbs down, how do I know which are value judgments, and which are attempts to move the post down due to disinterest? Is there a difference in your book?

You don't. And just out of curiosity, why do you care, as long as you are free to ignore the 7 thumbs down?

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@DrewDad,

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OK.

It's whining because you just complained without proposing a replacement. Give us a detailed description of what would work better, in your opinion.

And here's what took it over the top for me:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Well, it matters to ME, and that's the point, isn't it?

You (deliberately, I would bet) mis-interpreted my post. When I say that yes, the thumbs down has a social connotation that is different then how it is used here, and that it matters to me when I see it, that's an expression of opinion and from all appearances one that is shared by others here besides myself. In addition, it is an opinion which will be shared by nearly all new users to the site, who are not likely to have taken the time to read the manual before posting, because people don't really do that in real life.

It isn't inappropriate to question the nature of things without having a specific replacement in mind, although here's one that I would propose: scrap the whole stupid thumbs up/down system completely, as it's basically useless. Replace it with a 'ignore thread' button instead. Boom, problem solve. It won't happen b/c too much work was put into the system to abandon it now. But pointing out problems with the system isn't whining, it's constructive criticism. And I did agree with the original poster, that if the system stays as it is, you should be able to see who voted. So it isn't as if I haven't proposed any changes.

Cycloptichorn

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@Thomas,

Alternative reply: given enough votes, what's the difference? If seven more posters than not lack interest in your thread, maybe that does say something about the value of your thread.

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@Cycloptichorn,

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My question is, if I see a post with 7 thumbs down, how do I know which are value judgments, and which are attempts to move the post down due to disinterest? Is there a difference in your book?

Disinterest is a value judgment. In the past the popularity metric was posts. Now it's posts, views, votes and tags. Pick your poison but it's always involved the ability to make value judgments.

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@Thomas,

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My question is, if I see a post with 7 thumbs down, how do I know which are value judgments, and which are attempts to move the post down due to disinterest? Is there a difference in your book?

You don't. And just out of curiosity, why do you care, as long as you are free to ignore the 7 thumbs down?

Oh, I suppose because it makes me feel bad if my topics get hidden, and I don't know whether it's because people don't like me personally, don't like the topic, or disagree with my point of view. And I also can see a large possibility of trolling and abuse. It wouldn't be difficult to create a few shadow accounts whose only purpose is to rate people you don't like down, constantly, so that they are collapsed all the time for those who haven't specially manipulated their settings. And it can be used to marginalize unpopular posts regardless of the merits of the posts themselves, to the point where new entrants to the forum wouldn't even see the posts to be able to contribute to them, once again without changing their settings, an act which it isn't obvious will solve such problems unless you are already familiar with the site.

I think some of you guys need to step outside of yourself for a minute and consider how someone who is not familiar with the way things are done here would feel, or the problems they would face, if they showed up and wanted to start posting today. Impediments and barriers to them doing so, even subtle ones, are a detriment to the site overall.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

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It wouldn't be difficult to create a few shadow accounts whose only purpose is to rate people you don't like down, constantly, so that they are collapsed all the time for those who haven't specially manipulated their settings.

And it wouldn't be hard to stop you from doing that either. You could limit posts by IP, you could require account age, reputation or post history (all of which make it so much harder to do that just a bit of normal use cancels out the abuse).

It's not like this is the first such system ever made, and that there aren't a lot of ideas on how to eliminate disruptive patterns.

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"Alternative reply: given enough votes, what's the difference? If seven more posters than not lack interest in your thread, maybe that does say something about the value of your thread. "

Lacking interest in a thread/ post is not the same as voting it down.
Voting a post down is close to being a personal slight, and is in some cases it is intended to be just that.
It would be better without the votes, imho

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Wow. Movie reviews? Really? That's what you associate "thumbs up" and "thumbs down" with?

I had no idea... After years and years of learning, I'm still catching up with American Pop Culture.

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Yes, sure, approval and disapproval. So, use it that way. I don't see how that does any kind of harm. And besides:

"I disapprove of this thread" Not Equal

"this poster is an idiot"

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Also, you seem to have changed your argument from "we need an open voting system" to "we need different icons". Maybe not, though.

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@Robert Gentel,

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My question is, if I see a post with 7 thumbs down, how do I know which are value judgments, and which are attempts to move the post down due to disinterest? Is there a difference in your book?

Disinterest is a value judgment. In the past the popularity metric was posts. Now it's posts, views, votes and tags. Pick your poison but it's always involved the ability to make value judgments.

It's wrong when your value judgments start to keep others from being able to see posts without changing settings.

I can see how this sort of thing will end up, and it is fundamentally quite different then what we had before. Some seem to like that, but I find it interesting that differing opinions are not really being received well, but instead rejected.

I fundamentally disagree with you that disinterest is a value judgment in the same way that thumbs up/down are traditionally used. There are many valuable and good threads that many others talk on here which I am personally disinterested in; I wouldn't feel comfortable putting a thumbs down on one, because they are not BAD posts, just not for me, and I don't want to see other people's posts moved to areas where new users will never see them. That's the whole thing that people are forgetting here: the actual effects of voting move beyond oneself.

If they did not, if all voting was local, there wouldn't be any argument at all.

Cycloptichorn

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@McTag,

McTag wrote:

Voting a post down is close to being a personal slight, and is in some cases it is intended to be just that.

That's not a fact, that's your interpretation. Lots of people all over the new A2K have stated clearly that their interpretation is different.

1 Reply

Suggestion: Open (not anonymous) thread voting.

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