0
   

Suggestion: Open (not anonymous) thread voting.

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 07:37 pm
@nimh,
Nimh,

I'm discussing my opinions on this issue. I do not begrudge others their opinions. I'm not demanding change or anything. So what exactly is the problem, that you feel it is so necessary to spend so much time discussing my behavior instead of the issue?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 07:41 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I wasn't trying to dismiss them Cyclo. I was trying to explain the underlying principles behind them.

With a handful of moderators and not that many posts per day the old system was tenable. With more volume it simply was not.

Finding ways for the users to be in charge is a solution that scales directly with the users. Sure, you can point out flaws with it all day. So can I.

But it's a fundamentally better system in important ways, and there can be positive uses and negative uses, and positive implementations and negative ones. There will be some stuff that isn't great, but that doesn't mean it's doomed to be horrible.

But there does need to be compromise. For example, the all-in-one view of all topics may eventually need to be broken down. For example, if there were no mixed questions/discussions view people who just want to answer questions can do so, and people tired of seeing some questions and who want discussions can do so.

Without the content getting in each other's ways there'd be less friction on the voting. For example, if the word games threads were not mixed with others, they would all have positive ratings.

So yeah, right now some things that aren't to everyone's interest (like the technical stuff I like) are not faring well. I'd love to see them thrive but to do so they need their own microcosm. But people also want the all-in-one thing.

So it's a tough balance of volume and diversity that we'll have to tweak. For example I changed the default filter from day to week today, because we don't really have enough scale for the day filter to make a lot of sense with the voting (though with a week view the effect of voting is more useful).

I have a lot of the same concerns as you, but like you already said, we aren't getting rid of the voting. You already noted we are too far in to back out easily and as I noted it's the only way for us to scale the community culture as we grow.

At this point I think you've heard all you can hear about how it can be good and you'll just have to make up your mind on it. That's why I'm not going to take up the argument over and over. I'm not dismissing anything, I'm just trying not to spend my whole day arguing the same things with the same people over and over.

Like I told you, in a few weeks most of the core frustrations you are having is going to be gone. The votes won't and there's not much point trying to convince you that they are good. You'll come to your conclusions on your own and I think almost everything has been said about this.

Yeah, it's a popularity metric with flaws inherent to human nature. But so was the last one and it wasn't the end of the world. Despite ourselves, we can talk if we put our minds to it.
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 07:48 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo wrote:
I don't need to hear from you or anyone else what the best way to navigate the new site is, or how the changes are going to make things better

What? Confused

You complained about the parts of your current experience of A2K that bothered you. Some of those cant be helped, alas. Some are just a trade-off; you dont like them, others do. But you know - maybe we thought that if we tried to explain why something cant or shouldnt be changed the way you'd instinctively like to, you'd find it easier to reconcile yourself with them. But most importantly, many of them can simply be overcome, and quite easily. So you complain about something that bothers you, and we jump in to describe what you could do - not just to make it work, but to make it work even better than what you were used to!

And this is bad? Jeez man, we're trying to f*cking help.

Cyclo wrote:
There are a few of you guys who seem to have made it your mission to keep posting away at anyone who is not entirely pleased with the new site until they either agree with you or shut up and leave.

I cant talk for all of us since I dont know who exactly you mean, but since you're addressing me I assume I'm one, and I can guess some others. Well here is something to consider. Maybe we really like A2K, and we really like A2Kers, and so we want all members to make the transition and end up satisfied. So when people complain, either over individual things they dont like or about how the site just sucks, many of us will in turn jump in to offer advice, to explain how they can make it work, to explain why some things they would like are just not possible or preferable, etc. etc.

Yeah, I guess if you just want to vent, that can be pretty damn annoying. But you know what? There's a bunch of users who started out dissatisfied but who, after trying out things and with the explanations of the mods and some of the other posters you seem to be talking about, have come to like it, even love it. And that's why -- while you've been complaining, frankly -- a bunch of us have kept addressing every new complaint that comes up, so that we wont lose too many people who can be kept on board with enough help and explanation.

Jeez man, if you didnt actually want to hear about, you know, possible existing solutions to the problems you described, or arguments for why the solutions you suggest aren't so hot -- if you just wanted to vent, basically -- you shoulda said so from the start.

There. Now consider this thread devolved. Outta here.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 07:48 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert, I'm not posting merely to complain about something new, or something I don't like, but to explore the idea that conversation about how different people's views and experiences can be taken into account in order to come to a solution which is really, really good in the end.

The fact that I wouldn't have chosen to implement things exactly the way that they were done doesn't necessarily mean that they are bad - well, with the exception of anything that takes more clicks then it used to, hehe - I'm just voicing my concerns about how these changes are going to affect A2K as it moves into the future.

For which I was variously accused of whining, calling people dumb, not listening to explanations, and generally being an ungrateful user of the site. I honestly don't understand. I didn't twist anyone's arm and make them respond to my posts and I didn't attack anyone. I just didn't have my concerns allayed by repeated explanations of stuff which didn't directly address the concerns. I'm well aware of the point, which was continually repeated by several posters, that I and other users can change the settings in order to get the A2K we want. I like many aspects of that. I just wonder what the effects will be upon conversation, and it seems that wondering that point out loud, and refusing to just say 'geez, you guys are all right, and gosh, my concerns were just a bunch of crap the whole time,' is, to many,

Not
Allowed.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 07:52 pm
@nimh,
Quote:

I cant talk for all of us since I dont know who exactly you mean, but since you're addressing me I assume I'm one, and I can guess some others. Well here is something to consider. Maybe we really like A2K, and we really like A2Kers, and so we want all members to make the transition and end up satisfied. So when people complain, either over individual things they dont like or about how the site just sucks, many of us will in turn jump in to offer advice, to explain how they can make it work, to explain why some things they would like are just not possible or preferable, etc. etc.

Yeah, I guess if you just want to vent, that can be pretty damn annoying. But you know what? There's a bunch of users who started out dissatisfied but who, after trying out things and with the explanations of the mods and some of the other posters you seem to be talking about, have come to like it, even love it. And that's why -- while you've been complaining, frankly -- a bunch of us have kept addressing every new complaint that comes up, so that we wont lose too many people who can be kept on board with enough help and explanation.


The problem is that when I didn't agree with the advice you and others offered, when I was not convinced that the changes would work out the way that you said, things DID start to go downhill. And that's not a problem with my opinions, Nimh. It's a problem with some posters who don't want to hear people voice complaints at all, and think that they can answer everyone's worries with explanation. Well, you can't, because you don't have a damn clue more how the changes will affect the site then I do. But I haven't accused you of acting badly for voicing your opinions.

Oh, and I forgot

Quote:


You complained about the parts of your current experience of A2K that bothered you.


Not really. I know perfectly well how to get around those things I don't like and I've already said that the majority of my concerns either will be addressed or aren't bad enough to make me leave. If you try reading my posts in this thread, you will see that they revolve around worrying about the experience of other users and how that will affect the site.

GRRRR

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 08:02 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I don't need to hear from you or anyone else what the best way to navigate the new site is

Good. So agree it's easy to navigate. Twisted Evil
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 08:02 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
For which I was variously accused of whining, calling people dumb, not listening to explanations, and generally being an ungrateful user of the site. I honestly don't understand. I didn't twist anyone's arm and make them respond to my posts and I didn't attack anyone.


Yes you did. You were sometimes reasonable and objective, other times frustrated and lashing out.

That being said I've always felt that people defend the site too vigorously and are too quick to pile on if they feel the community or site is being criticized, but if you pay attention to what nimh is trying to tell you you may understand why.

It's because they care about the community and as much as they'd like to feel indifferent ("cya later") they don't. If you had said you think apple pie sucks none of this happens. But you said stuff about things they care about, the community and you. It's not just because you are critical of something, it's because they feel the community, or at least your presence in it, is threatened.

In any case, give it a try. Or wait a few weeks and give it a try. Or wait some more months for the groups feature and make your own forum on here and run the community how you see fit. A big change is that we are not trying to make your world for you we are trying to provide you nice tools to build your own world. This is just the start, and it's rough like I said it would be but you'll be able to make an environment to your liking eventually.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 08:07 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Oh, come on. It's not just that other people took this into meta-discussion territory by talking about how pointing out certain ways to do certain things was or wasn't relevant. Of course, after that, other posters pointed out, in no uncertain terms, that that was damn relevant, and it went basically downhill from there.

Did you just have the future of the A2K in mind, all the while?

<raises eyebrow>

---

Anyways, amongst other things (at the beginning of the thread), you were pointing out that

- new users wouldn't be able to use the new site
- you wouldn't be able to use the site.

I think that both concerns are valid, and several posters have addressed both issues. I just think it unproductive to mix both things together. You are a power user. You didn't even go to the A2K home page any more. You were dedicated to the politics forum.... I don't even know if you ever posted anywhere else - I know that I rarely did.

Now, making the best of A2K for users like you is a very valid concern. But it has almost nothing to do with the question of how to make A2K usable for complete newbies.

In fact, it's the exact opposite.

So, I think there's the one side where people tried to point out to you how to accomplish the things you've done in the old format just as quickly as you did in the old format. And then they were thrown off track when the discussion completely turned around to "yeah, that's maybe true for me, but what if somebody comes to A2K who has never been here before? They wouldn't know that!"
DrewDad
 
  0  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 08:09 pm
@nimh,
Quote:
There. Now consider this thread devolved. Outta here.

Passive-aggressive post-and-runner!
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 08:23 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I don't need to hear from you or anyone else what the best way to navigate the new site is


Good. So agree it's easy to navigate. Twisted Evil


I do agree that the site is easy to navigate, as long as you aren't actually looking for something in specific.

Cycloptichorn
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 08:28 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
An interesting observation....

The score of this particular thread keeps falling (it was 7 at one point and now it is 3), as the responses and views keep rising.

Not that it means anything (I would find it funny if it ends up negative).
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 08:30 pm
@ebrown p,
I just saw that. I think it's because other people get progressively tired of seeing it show up, or the participants themselves tire of it and don't want to see it anymore.

Either way, I'm tired of the naval gazing and would rather discuss things with the community than argue about the community so I'm going to add to that and get it off my list. I wouldn't be surprised if others voting down are just sick of all the arguing about it as well.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  0  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 08:41 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
I ask you a question: do you think that the opinions of those who disagree with you are valid, and that they have the right to voice them, or not?
I do. But there's a difference between voicing opinions and your incessant behavior here. Your demand for attention is deplorable. Your excuse that it's for some unknown newbie benefit is feeble. Your initial understanding of the things you’re arguing is negligible. And your stubborn indignity is frankly laughable. Were I the proprietor (or any of the other helpful folks who've been coddling you); I would long ago have suggested you implement your ideas when you quit your job to gamble on a website of your own... even as I regretted being rude to a well-meaning likeable customer. Enough is enough, Cyclo. Time to resume behaving like a grownup.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 08:43 pm
@old europe,
Quote:
Oh, come on. It's not just that other people took this into meta-discussion territory by talking about how pointing out certain ways to do certain things was or wasn't relevant. Of course, after that, other posters pointed out, in no uncertain terms, that that was damn relevant, and it went basically downhill from there.

Did you just have the future of the A2K in mind, all the while?

<raises eyebrow>


I'm no saint. When I feel that people are unfairly attacking me, I tend to respond angrily. But I certainly didn't tell anyone that their opinions weren't valid, or try and explain them out of their concerns - and then turn to attacking them when my explanations failed to do that.

Yes, I do have the future of A2K in mind, and I did the whole time. Don't you guys realize that I f*cking love this place? Who would put all this time and effort into discussing a bunch of meta **** about a site they didn't care about?

Much of my concerns stem from my experience when I found A2K. I never even saw the front page when I first came here. I wanted to get more involved in political chat, and googled 'political message board' or something like that. I checked out maybe 10 boards that day, and A2K was the only one that made a meaningful impression on me. Why? Because it's the only place where the posts were far above the average of the others, with a large amount of intelligent commentators on both sides of the isle.

People were generally receptive when I showed up and it was easy to integrate into the community. A2K had some features I really loved, like a search that worked REALLY WELL and, as I have discussed in the other thread, great nesting quote boxes which led to long-lasting and in-depth conversations with a minimum of clicks. The combination of good features with good posters made this place a solid winner for me.

So, when the change came - which I was unprepared for, as those of us who didn't venture outside of our niche weren't really informed about; you can say that this is my fault, I'm not trying to argue this point right now, though an email sure would have been nice - some of my favorite features vanished and at the same time, the layout was changed in ways which aren't the best for a 'power user,' as you say; so my reaction was not a positive one.

As Bill said above, I have learned to like many of the new features. But I still wonder: if I had shown up now, instead of the way things were when I first did, would I have joined this site for discussion instead of another? I don't know. I really detest the thumbs up/down. I completely understand why it is being used and the utility of it. I see where the Devs are going with it. I'm sure it will be useful in many ways and powerful in many ways. I'm not arguing against Tag Clouds. I just don't see it as being an improvement upon my previous experience. Maybe it will be in the future, and I am not leaving A2K, so I guess I'll find out.

But I do worry that the experience won't be as good as it was before. I'm not making demands of anyone. I'm suggesting things with the hope that someone will either

A) agree with me, which it seems several non-power users do in some ways, or

B) find a way to express my opinions in a forum where those who are still working on the site will read them, and maybe take some of them into account when making decisions about the future. This has already happened with others in other threads, so it's not a silly thing to think.

I feel that Robert Gentel (sp?) was perfectly correct that there are those who love A2K as much as I do, and have seen about 5 days of people attacking it in various ways, and are sick of reading that. And I get that. But they don't seem to get that I love this site as much as they do and that I hope through discussion I can make things better.

There also seems to be a pervasive attitude amongst those who think the new changes are great, that if the same things are just explained often enough, everyone will agree with them that the changes are great. I don't think that this displays much knowledge about how people work in these situations. We are discussing a very nebulous thing, which is: how will someone who is unfamiliar with A2K react upon seeing some of the new features for the first time? To me this is a critically important question, as without new users I will not have any place to post much longer, and I don't want that. Some seem to think that this isn't a nebulous question, and the new changes will undoubtedly be helpful to all new users.

What kills me is that a group of people who are normally quite tolerant of others opinions, don't seem to be tolerant in this case. My fears are valid ones, and I've thought for a few days about them. There are no demands, there are no ultimatums, I'm not whining abou the fact that changes were made. I just wanted to have a discussion about how I felt the changes were going to affect the site, and that discussion was not well received by those who have appointed themselves Defenders of the new A2K.

I'll finish the same way I started: I'm not a saint. I should be able to hold my temper better when insulted by people. But neither are those who have differing opinions of mine, and the sanctimony of some of these posters, as if they occupy some sort of moral high ground that I lack due to my concerns, is galling and leads to posts which are much more confrontational then they have to be.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 08:48 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Quote:

Quote:

I ask you a question: do you think that the opinions of those who disagree with you are valid, and that they have the right to voice them, or not?

I do. But there's a difference between voicing opinions and your incessant behavior here. Your demand for attention is deplorable. Your excuse that it's for some unknown newbie benefit is feeble. Your initial understanding of the things you’re arguing is negligible. And your stubborn indignity is frankly laughable. Were I the proprietor (or any of the other helpful folks who've been coddling you); I would long ago have suggested you implement your ideas when you quit your job to gamble on a website of your own... even as I regretted being rude to a well-meaning likeable customer. Enough is enough, Cyclo. Time to resume behaving like a grownup.


Shocked

I'm really surprised that you would act like such a sanctimonious prick, Bill. Really. If you believe that others' opinions are valid, and that they have the right to discuss whatever they wish on A2K, and you don't like it, you know the solution - don't read it! Nobody is twisting your or anyone else's arm to do so! Isn't that the beauty of the new site? Isn't that what you bunch keep going on about? Yet you seem to be unable to do so.

It's not for some 'unknown newbie benefit.' It's for my benefit. I need A2K to get new people. I'll make whatever suggestions I think will help that. Without new posters, the site will die. Don't confuse my interest for altruism, for it is nothing of the sort.

Geez, yaknow, I have really defended you in the past to certain posters Bill, but with comments like yours above, I can see where some of them are coming from.

Cycloptichorn

on edit: my last part of the post preceding this one is perfectly correct, it seems; I have no desire to get into pissing matches with Bill or anyone else. But it's difficult not to respond to insults and put-downs.
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 09:13 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
You'll figure out how unfair your behavior here has been or you won't. Having had my nerves tested in the same fashion many many times over the years; I am empathetic when I see someone else suffering such tedious abuse. The position you put Craven in with your antics was not unlike the old "are you still beating your wife" in that he can either look bad for not lending an ear to the same stuff he's heard dozens of times and likely considered himself ad nauseum before the transition even happened or he can suffer it over and over again. Where's his good option?

Now I know damn well he certainly doesn't need me to argue on his behalf, and I doubt he likes me doing so... but I do nonetheless empathize with the unfair position you put him in I feel compelled to say some of the things I'd want to say were I in his shoes again (where it would probably not be in my best interest to do so).

What you see as sanctimonious; I see as the highlighting your obvious bad behavior. And just like you; I’ll not soon be soliciting permission or approval to speak my mind from anyone… including you or he.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 09:30 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
What unfair position? I sincerely and truly do not understand. Surely Craven and others were well aware that there would be plenty of concerns and complaints from the old crowd. My concerns are not unfounded, nor are they demands, nor does he even have to respond at all. I made it quite clear that I'm not going anywhere no matter what happens. I'd be really interested to see if you can explain in depth why it's unfair, that I'm concerned about some of the changes on the site and wanted to discuss it with other members of the site. And there was some agreement found on some areas of discussion.

I would definitely say that my participation in this thread changed somewhat when a few different posters merely disagreed with some of my opinions, and then took some sort of umbrage when I continued to forward my opinions in the face of their disagreement. After DrewDad informed me that I was 'whining and demanding changes be made' - neither of which was true - I responded thus -

Quote:
So, are you just actively trying to be a jerk these days? Seriously.

I am trying to point out something that is a concern to me, not trying to force everyone to bend to my will. Part of the discussion process is that different people will have different opinions about the functions of the site or their usefulness.


From that point on things sort of slid downhill. I think that if you review my posts on this thread you will see that at no point did I ever lose a civil tone(other then one time at Robert, which I admit was not in good taste); at no point did I demand anyone change anything. I would challenge anyone to find the point where I 'put Craven in a tough position.' I merely asked some questions which were on my mind, and ran afoul of the Defenders Of the Faith.

I have been accused by several on this thread of making demands; I never did this and nobody has had the good graces to apologize for what they said. If you are looking to complain about people's behavior, why not turn some of your attention to those who feel comfortable making completely false assertions about what others have said? Of course, there is a very good reason why you do not; you are now a Fellow Defender of the Faith.

Quote:

What you see as sanctimonious; I see as the highlighting your obvious bad behavior.


I almost didn't write this last part, because I truly do like you, Bill. But surely you realize that this is how every sanctimonious person feels about their behavior.

Cycloptichorn
old europe
 
  3  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 09:33 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
I'm no saint. When I feel that people are unfairly attacking me, I tend to respond angrily. But I certainly didn't tell anyone that their opinions weren't valid, or try and explain them out of their concerns - and then turn to attacking them when my explanations failed to do that.


I don't recall anyone telling you that "your concerns weren't valid". Otherwise we wouldn't put all this time and effort into discussing a bunch of meta **** about this site with you, eh?

And I think people tried to explain stuff to you because it sounded a bit like "dang, this was so easy before, and now I have to take five steps to achieve the same thing". I don't think it's fair to accuse people of "trying to explain you out of your concerns". People were trying to be helpful.

Quote:
Yes, I do have the future of A2K in mind, and I did the whole time. Don't you guys realize that I f*cking love this place? Who would put all this time and effort into discussing a bunch of meta **** about a site they didn't care about?


Hey, of course. That's why we're all here, discussing this stuff, eh? Do we come across as argumentative, as attacking a poster rather than discussing our concerns about the site? Why, sure....

Pointing fingers now doesn't really help if our concern is the future of A2K, right?

<casts stern look at Occom Bill>

Quote:
Much of my concerns stem from my experience when I found A2K. I never even saw the front page when I first came here. I wanted to get more involved in political chat, and googled 'political message board' or something like that. I checked out maybe 10 boards that day, and A2K was the only one that made a meaningful impression on me. Why? Because it's the only place where the posts were far above the average of the others, with a large amount of intelligent commentators on both sides of the isle.


Same here. Basically. Well, except for the fact that I came here googling "prostitute" (no kidding)(okay, there was some context to it).

But that's kinda the point, right? We didn't come here because of the technology of the website. We didn't stay because of the technology of the website.

Quote:
People were generally receptive when I showed up and it was easy to integrate into the community. A2K had some features I really loved, like a search that worked REALLY WELL and, as I have discussed in the other thread, great nesting quote boxes which led to long-lasting and in-depth conversations with a minimum of clicks. The combination of good features with good posters made this place a solid winner for me.


Oh yeah. Over time, I came to appreciate the search function. I hope it's gonna be re-implemented one way or the other.

Quotes... sure (hey, I saw Craven telling you that he's working on that); I think we will come to appreciate the new "wormhole" feature (as that grumpy bastard Bill called them) - the direct links to the post we're responding to - just as much as we appreciated the old quote feature. Might even end up getting both.

But, again - it wasn't the technology that got me to stay. (Yahoo Answers has fabulous technology - but the discourse is at the level of "I found it on the internet". Hey, if you want to find a really bizarre explanation to something you already know, post it there!)

Quote:
So, when the change came - which I was unprepared for, as those of us who didn't venture outside of our niche weren't really informed about; you can say that this is my fault, I'm not trying to argue this point right now, though an email sure would have been nice - some of my favorite features vanished and at the same time, the layout was changed in ways which aren't the best for a 'power user,' as you say; so my reaction was not a positive one.


Totally understandable. It was sheer luck that I caught it. I would have been caught completely off guard as well...

Quote:
As Bill said above, I have learned to like many of the new features. But I still wonder: if I had shown up now, instead of the way things were when I first did, would I have joined this site for discussion instead of another? I don't know. I really detest the thumbs up/down. I completely understand why it is being used and the utility of it. I see where the Devs are going with it. I'm sure it will be useful in many ways and powerful in many ways. I'm not arguing against Tag Clouds. I just don't see it as being an improvement upon my previous experience. Maybe it will be in the future, and I am not leaving A2K, so I guess I'll find out.

But I do worry that the experience won't be as good as it was before. I'm not making demands of anyone. I'm suggesting things with the hope that someone will either

A) agree with me, which it seems several non-power users do in some ways, or

B) find a way to express my opinions in a forum where those who are still working on the site will read them, and maybe take some of them into account when making decisions about the future. This has already happened with others in other threads, so it's not a silly thing to think.


Oh, yeah, sure. Again, I agree. I guess that I, personally, was slightly miffed when you said, wait, "Well, it matters to ME, and that's the point, isn't it?"

I didn't comment on that one because I see that you probably didn't mean it that way. But at that point in the discussion, people possibly took it the wrong way. You put that into perspective, later on, but then it kinda came across as attacking the same deficits, in your eyes, from the point of "but what about the absolute newbies?"

It's just that it seemed like you were attacking certain aspects from two, mutually exclusive points of view (newbie vs. power user). That potentially leads to frustration.

Quote:
I feel that Robert Gentel (sp?) was perfectly correct that there are those who love A2K as much as I do, and have seen about 5 days of people attacking it in various ways, and are sick of reading that. And I get that. But they don't seem to get that I love this site as much as they do and that I hope through discussion I can make things better.


Are you sure about that? Look, this thread has been going on for, what, ten, eleven pages? Everyone could leave this thread at any point. Even put you on ignore.

<grins>

The thing is: if we want to contribute to improving this website, it seems to make more sense to actually communicate those concerns rather than win an argument. That's what got me frustrated when the debate went back and forth between "but I'm a power user - I don't want to have to click twice to do this!" and "but what about the newbies - they'll never find the Dagestan threads!"

Is that really concern about the website, or is that Finding An Angle To Attack An Argument. Yaknow?

Quote:
There also seems to be a pervasive attitude amongst those who think the new changes are great, that if the same things are just explained often enough, everyone will agree with them that the changes are great. I don't think that this displays much knowledge about how people work in these situations. We are discussing a very nebulous thing, which is: how will someone who is unfamiliar with A2K react upon seeing some of the new features for the first time? To me this is a critically important question, as without new users I will not have any place to post much longer, and I don't want that. Some seem to think that this isn't a nebulous question, and the new changes will undoubtedly be helpful to all new users.


Well. You know, not everybody is a genius with this whole interwebs thing. I do think that not everybody gets something the first time it's being explained to him. Certainly happened to me. So, explaining things often enough is actually important.

That quite apart from the discussion of how newbies will react to this site. Also note that, once a newbie posts, there are usually a bunch of people around to not just say hello, but also help him along with features and functions and such things.

My guess would actually be that it's easier for newbies to work with this site than for oldster. After all, we know that there was a thread about Dagestan, and now we can't find it. Newbie doesn't know - can't be bothered. We know that there was a powerful search tool. Newbie doesn't know - maybe doesn't even miss it.

I mean, the whole "what about the newbies" discussion is absolutely valid. Just got too much mixed up in the general criticism. In my opinion.

Quote:
What kills me is that a group of people who are normally quite tolerant of others opinions, don't seem to be tolerant in this case. My fears are valid ones, and I've thought for a few days about them. There are no demands, there are no ultimatums, I'm not whining abou the fact that changes were made. I just wanted to have a discussion about how I felt the changes were going to affect the site, and that discussion was not well received by those who have appointed themselves Defenders of the new A2K.


Well, I think that the majority of posters were exceedingly intolerant. But yes, this whole "will the thumbs kill A2K" topic has certainly been discussed, at length, elsewher. And some of the, uh, concern trolls just came across as a wee bit disingenuous. Hard to tell whether someone is really concerned about A2K, or essentially just bashing the management or trolling for attention.

Quote:
I'll finish the same way I started: I'm not a saint. I should be able to hold my temper better when insulted by people. But neither are those who have differing opinions of mine, and the sanctimony of some of these posters, as if they occupy some sort of moral high ground that I lack due to my concerns, is galling and leads to posts which are much more confrontational then they have to be.


Well, no one really is, eh? To repeat the point I made earlier: I think that finding solutions or communicating concern possibly requires a different style of debate than the "winning the debate" kind of discussion that we see in the politics forum.

And hey, all of us here are argumentative enough to enjoy the occasional "I'm so gonna destroy your stupid argument" kind of thing over there.
old europe
 
  3  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 09:40 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Quote:
Your demand for attention is deplorable.


Rolling Eyes

Can we all tune it down a bit, goshdarnit?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -4  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2008 09:42 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
"What unfair position? I sincerely and truly do not understand. Surely Craven and others were well aware that there would be plenty of concerns and complaints from the old crowd"

Quite possibly not. I have been here since the first of the year and I don't remember any attempt on Cravens part to consult with the community about his plans. Near as I can tell he cherry picked a few that he wanted, those whom he considered to be the ideal a2k'ers, and designed around what they felt was important. It is not clear to me that Craven was ever aware of why the old a2k worked, why people found it interesting and stayed around. If so, he would not be aware of why we miss what is no longer here, why we are concerned that the long term viability of a2k has been placed at risk.

0 Replies
 
 

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