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ICE: Immigration enforcement out of control

 
 
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 06:09 am
This is the latest in a set of shocking cases of complete disregard for human life committed by ICE, an organization that was recently outraged by being compared with the "Gestapo" in Congress.

Here are the details in their latest crime.

Jason Ng, a resident of an immigration detention facility, had complained of severe back pain since April. He was initially moved to a lower bunk, and allowed a wheelchair... but he was not allowed access to medical care. When his condition worsened, they stopped letting him use a wheelchair. This prevented him from seeing his family (since he was unable to move to the visiting area).

In July, without any explanation and in excruciating pain, they dragged him in shackles to Hartford and back "bruising his arms and legs". His sister believes that, not wanting to provide a medical examination to evaluate his condition, they wanted to "prove" that he was faking.

His autopsy showed that he suffered from a fractured spine and undiagnosed cancer.

Jason leaves behind a wife and children- all U.S. citizens.

Jason came to the U.S. when he was 17. He was trying to become legal and was arrested while he was going for a interview with immigration officials because a couple of years ago, he never received a notice that was sent to the wrong address.

But the details don't matter. This is another example of torture by an immigration enforcement agency run amok.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/nyregion/13detain.html?hp
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 07:28 am
And hospital employees do stupid things that cost people their lives too. Thousands of them every year.

Both hospitals and ICE should be shut down immediately until they can prove that they won't employ fallible human beings as staff members.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 07:34 am
A Hospital that showed a pattern of disrespect for human life leading to multiple tragedies, from sending a mentally handicapped American to Tijuana, to arresting and detaining Americans without due process, to refusing to treat people suffering from severe illness would be shut down.

There is a big difference between being infallible and incompetent.

And, being deliberately negligent for a political end is another thing altogether.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 07:47 am
Just wait til health care services are scarcer and de facto rationing takes place under the politically popular 'universal health' that you so covet.

Gaining your political goal will cost many their health and their lives.

How can you justify Hilly's health care proposal in '93 which made criminals out of those wishing to pay for their own health care out of their own pocket?

What will be different with Obamas proposal?

If health care is to be controlled by the govt then anyone going around or outside the system will have to be punished, won't they?
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 07:57 am
So he snuck in illegally, had a bad back, and cancer. Great candidate for "legal immigration". Pshaw.
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CoastalRat
 
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Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 08:06 am
Of course, a perfectly good argument could be made that had he never come here illegally in the first place he may still be alive today. Go figure.

On the flip side, there really is no excuse for not having sent him for medical attention. Hopefully those involved will act differently next time they are faced with a similar situation.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 08:22 am
First, Coastal... did you read the story? This man came as a child. He married a U.S. citizen and was arrested because he was going to an immigration interview. Had it not been for a technicality, this guy had the right to a green card. If your's was a knee-jerk response without reading the story, I will overlook it.

My point is that as a law-enforcement agency, the ICE should adhere to a few basic principles.

1) The ICE should obey the law themselves. This means that defendants should be treated humanely and should be given due process rights.

2) Punishment should be reasonable according to the "crime". People being detained for no other reason than crossing the border should not be treated like violent criminals.

They have a legal right to medical care, but fairness also says that they should have access to their family as they exercise their right to a fair trial.

3) The law enforcement methods that lead to arrests should be legal and fair. In these mass roundups of workplaces and communities, U.S. citizens have repeatedly been arrested and detained.. this is something that would not happen if the ICE (as a law enforcement agency) were itself following the rules.

Jason is another example of someone who was doing what he was supposed to do. He came as a child, and was working with the immigration system in an attempt to be able to stay with his family.

But ICE has so many clear abuses of the law, and of basic human decency.... whatever you think about immigration enforcement, they are way outside of should be acceptable in a civilized country.
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cjhsa
 
  0  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 08:30 am
And yet you favor Dems and more big government.... such a hypocrite you are ebrown-stain.
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 08:45 am
ebrown_p wrote:
First, Coastal... did you read the story? This man came as a child. He married a U.S. citizen and was arrested because he was going to an immigration interview. Had it not been for a technicality, this guy had the right to a green card. If your's was a knee-jerk response without reading the story, I will overlook it.

My point is that as a law-enforcement agency, the ICE should adhere to a few basic principles.

1) The ICE should obey the law themselves. This means that defendants should be treated humanely and should be given due process rights.

2) Punishment should be reasonable according to the "crime". People being detained for no other reason than crossing the border should not be treated like violent criminals.

They have a legal right to medical care, but fairness also says that they should have access to their family as they exercise their right to a fair trial.

3) The law enforcement methods that lead to arrests should be legal and fair. In these mass roundups of workplaces and communities, U.S. citizens have repeatedly been arrested and detained.. this is something that would not happen if the ICE (as a law enforcement agency) were itself following the rules.

Jason is another example of someone who was doing what he was supposed to do. He came as a child, and was working with the immigration system in an attempt to be able to stay with his family.

But ICE has so many clear abuses of the law, and of basic human decency.... whatever you think about immigration enforcement, they are way outside of should be acceptable in a civilized country.


I did not read the article, but rather what you posted. You wrote that the guy came to the US at the age of 17, which can hardly be considered a "child." The fact that he was married and working toward becoming a legal citizen is certainly commendable and a credit to him. And I agree wholeheartedly that in all cases we should treat people with basic human decency when they are detained for immigration issues.

But none of that changes the point of my post, which is that he did come here illegally and had he not he may not have suffered as he did. That in no way gets the ICE off the hook for treating him as they did. It was simply an observation on my part.
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 09:04 am
Quote:
this guy had the right to a green card


NOBODY has a "right" to a green card.
It is a priveledge that someone must work for and prove themselves.
The US govt is not required to give a green card to anyone that asks for one, and you know it.

Thats what you constantly get wrong.
Nobody has a "right" to come to the US, they have to get permission.
If they choose to come here, they MUST do it legally.

You seem to want to allow people to do it illegally, at least thats the impression you have given every time the subject comes up.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 09:15 am
CoastalRat wrote:
Of course, a perfectly good argument could be made that had he never come here illegally in the first place he may still be alive today. Go figure.

On the flip side, there really is no excuse for not having sent him for medical attention. Hopefully those involved will act differently next time they are faced with a similar situation.


Agreed with both of these.

It is ebrown's over the top characterization of 'torture' and 'Gestapo' that is wrong here.

A few incompetents do not make the mission of an entire agency invalid.

Recently, the Kansas City Missouri police department had an incident. They stopped a pregnant woman for a traffic infraction.

She had a warrant and they arrested her. She started complaining of pain and bleeding but was not given medical attention.

She lost the baby the next day.

Wrong? Sure. She should have been given medical care. It is inexcusable and the officers lost their jobs, as they should have.

But ebrown would probably paint the whole force as 'Gestapo' based on this.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2008 09:26 am
It is not me who is painting them as "Gestapo".

The reference I made was to Representative Sam Farr, who pointed out during Congressional testimony that many his constituents consider raids in their communities "Gestapo-like". Julie Myers objected to the charge.

That the ICE uses "Gestapo-like tactics" is a view that is held by many American citizens.

Part of the problem is that the ICE, which should be a just a law enforcement agency, has been turned into a politically-motivated force designed to push controversial policy.

This is not an isolated incident. When I have time, I will post on Pedro Guzman, an mentally disabled American citizen who, after the agents "convinced" him to sign a paper, was deported to Mexico. The ICE made no effort to correct their mistake.
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Aug, 2008 11:33 am
@ebrown p,
As you who have been here for awhile knows I disagree with e brown on the immagration issues but this is a clear instance of the government being in the wrong. He deserved medical treatment. They had an obligation to let a doctor determine his medical status instead of some political apointee. Where is spell ck!
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