America and Israel about to purge Iran of its evil.

Israel buys figher jets

who's going to purge america and israel of their evil

The republicans of course..

In all seriousness, let's hope the fibre of democracy holds things in check.

I find that bran muffins to the trick nicely.

What does democracy have to do with it?

Is Israel going to have a referendum on whether or not it launches a pre-emptive strike?

(The YES position would probably win, come to think of it)

It is perfectly clear that Iran is on a track to add nukes to its arsenal. Does anyone seriously doubt this fact?

Thus there are only two possible reactions available to the rest of the world:

1) Stop Iran
2) Deal with a nuclear Iran

I don't believe that any Western nation believes that #2 is the option of first choice. Israel certainly doesn't.

The difference in positions tends to be how far a nation is willing to go with #1 before simply accepting #2.

Despite some tough talk from a few European leaders (noticibly Sarkozy), I think we can count on Europe to lose it's gumption long before condoning a military option.

Despite even tougher talk from American leaders, an American military strike is almost certainly not going to happen.

This leaves Israel.

Iran's president seems to be inviting an Israeli strike.

I'm sure India wasn't too keen on the prospect of a Pakistan with nukes, but they weren't listening to the the then Pakistani president ranting about wiping India off the face of the earth.

American Liberals make much of the need to understand the culture and fears and desires of our enemies, and yet they don't seem to care to do the same for our allies.

The public expression of a powerful madman's implicit desire to exterminate Jews is in the very recent history of Israel, and cannot be underestimated in terms of its shaping the national psyche.

It is all well and good for other nations to reach the conclusion that the public anti-semetic rants of the Iranian president are just hot air which will never be acted upon, but Jews have a recent experience with this sort of thing, and they have every reason to believe that such hot air is emminating from an inferno intended to incinerate them.

Israel, clearly, values its relationship with the US and is willing to repress its instinctual reactions to preserve that relationship - witness the Israeli response to Iraqi Scud attacks during the first Gulf War - but Jews have a legitimate reason not to trust any Western nation to go all the way to protect their existence, let alone their interests.

Israel is not going to sit back and let Iran go nuclear, nor should they.

The current government in Iran clearly presents an existential threat to Israel. With nukes they can achieve such an end.

If the worst happens and Iran nukes Tel Aviv, will it matter that the US invades Iran, and, just as importantly, can Israel rely on the US to do so?

We all know that Israel cannot begin to rely on any nation other than the US to protect it, and we also know that an unfailing commitment to Israel's security is not universal in terms of US politics.

Prediction:

The feckless attempts to urge Iran to abandon its nuclear ambitions will never succeed.

Israel will, at some point, decide that it can no longer wait for these feckless efforts to bear fruit and will take matters into their own military hands.

The world will howl when Israeli bombers drop ordinace all around Iran.

The Muslim World will, yet again, yowl for jihad, but do nothing in terms of national militaries.

Iran will declare war on Israel and hostilities will ensue with Iran's proxies in Syria, Palestine and Lebannon joining the fray.

Gas prices will sky rocket to $7.00 a gallon in the US, and the US economy will be dealt a heavy body blow.

Europe's economy will be dealt an even heavier blow, and the resulting severe downturn will lead to an even greater surge of anti-immigrant right wing parties.

All because the West doesn't have the foresight or cajones to cnfront Iran in a serious way right now.

The wolf at your door will not go away because you throw him your youngest child.

A War of Self-Destruction
By Chris Hedges

An attack on Iran, which Israeli and Bush administration officials appear set to carry out if Iranian uranium enrichment is not halted, would ignite a regional war in the Middle East and lead to economic collapse and political upheaval in the United States.

"In short and simple terms, we would be plunged into a depression that would make the Great Depression of the 1930s in which I spent my childhood look like boom times," said William R. Polk, former professor of history at the University of Chicago and a member of the Policy Planning Council under President Kennedy. "Industries would fail, banks would collapse, government revenues would dry up, universities would have to close, health care, even as limited as it now is for roughly 75 million Americans, would virtually cease. In short, something like [what] the South suffered at the end of the Civil War would plague the country."

The passage of vast amounts of oil and liquefied gas through the Persian Gulf would be disrupted. Iranian attacks, carried out with rocket- and bomb-equipped speedboats and submarines, would be deadly and effective. A classified Pentagon war game in 2002 simulated these swarming attacks by Iranian speedboats packed with explosives in the gulf; the Navy lost 16 major warships, according to a report in The New York Times. Iranian oil, which makes up 8 percent of the world's energy supply, would instantly be taken off the market. And oil would jump to over $500 a barrel and perhaps, as the conflict dragged on, to over $750 a barrel. Our petroleum-based economy would come to a halt.

Israel would be hit by Iranian Shahab-3 ballistic missiles. Hezbollah, with its new store of Iranian-supplied rockets that allegedly can reach any part of Israel, including Israel's nuclear plant at Dimona, would enter the conflict. Israel would lash back. Terrorist attacks on U.S. targets would become frequent. U.S. casualties in Iraq would mount as the Iranians rained missiles down on U.S. bases and installations, including our imperial city, the Green Zone. Chaos and mayhem would grip the Middle East. The world financial markets would go haywire.

"Even at today's price, as you know, 14 airlines have gone out of business while others are hovering on the brink of bankruptcy and most have curtailed service and laid off personnel," said Polk, one of the country's leading scholars of the Arab world. "At double or triple today's price, none could fly unless nationalized. A whole range of other industries would be quickly drawn into the quicksand. Ironically, war would push America into a form of socialist economy."

The U.S. economy is already tottering. We recently witnessed the second-largest bank failure in U.S. history, and there are fears that as many as 150 banks could fail over the next 12 to 18 months. There will be 6.5 million foreclosures over the next five years, according to Wall Street analysts. The government is furiously pumping billions of taxpayer dollars into private corporations to keep them afloat. The Congress bailed out the shareholders of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. These bizarre "government-sponsored enterprises" own or guarantee half the mortgages in the country?-some $5.1 trillion. The Federal Reserve evoked rarely used emergency powers to put billions of taxpayer dollars at risk to stop the meltdown of a non-bank, Bear Stearns, which it never regulated. More than $300 billion has been written down so far. Losses, by the time we are done, could exceed $1 trillion.

The already staggering debt generated by the war in Iraq would mushroom with an attack on Iran. Fighting wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran, we would soon be struggling to pay off a debt of at least two or three times the present amount. This is a weight the U.S. economy cannot bear, especially as the dollar tumbles against the euro and other major currencies. The government has borrowed abroad roughly a quarter of our annual national income in order to pay for the Iraq debacle. We have been told for the first time by a sovereign fund (South Korean, one of the world's largest) that it will no longer buy U.S. Treasury bonds. Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz estimates that the final cost of the war in Iraq, once all the hidden costs are added up, could be as high as $7 trillion.

"Financial capitalism is crashing," wrote independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader. "So the lights are on late in Washington's Federal Reserve, SEC and Treasury Department trying to figure out how socialism (your tax dollars and credits) can once again bail out these big-time gamblers with our money. ... Reckless, self-enriching capitalists get on your knees and thank the rescuing Washington socialists, for without them, you would surely be in chains."

A war with Iran would also have grave political consequences. The specter of millions of Americans driven out of their homes, no longer able to afford basic necessities, out of work and enraged, would, as it has throughout history, embolden messianic right-wing and proto-fascist movements. Given the potential for social unrest, basic freedoms would be curtailed and in some cases abolished in the name of order and national security. The radical fringes of the Christian right could rise up with a vengeance. They would happily ally themselves with an assortment of oddballs, lunatics and corporate behemoths from Blackwater mercenaries to frightened capitalists at Halliburton. It was economic collapse, along with a climate of fear and instability, that was used to build the fascist and communist movements that plagued Germany, Italy and the Soviet Union during the last century. These same forces led to the collapse of the former Yugoslavia. We are not immune to these distortions.

But maybe those who advocate a war with Iran know all this. Maybe this is what they want. Maybe they understand that a war with Iran would finally kill off our weakened and anemic democracy. Maybe they see this as the dawn of a new era, an era when the last impediments to a global totalitarian capitalism can finally be removed and we can all be ground under the corporate jack boot, from Shanghai to New Delhi to Ohio. There are huge corporations that make obscene profits from human misery. They run our health care industry. They run our oil and gas companies. They run our bloated weapons industry. They run Wall Street and the major investment firms. They run our manufacturing firms. They also, ominously, run our government. link

Well, so much for Finn's bombastic bluster.

Always a good purge:

Whatever transpires, it will not last for longer than some finite time. But, many people like a free lunch. The world never worked that way, so whether any country addresses the situation now or later, someone's comfort will be affected.

The problem is the U.S. would be so divided in its blame. Plus, the threat is not even against Israel for the long term, since longer range missiles, that could be purchased in the future, makes other countries and other continents under a potential threat.

In effect, if Israel deals with the situation, she may just be doing the "dirty work" that will benefit Europe for the remainder of the 21st century. But, is it not interesting that few want to see that perspective?

There are so many holes in Chris Hedges synopses of a coming war with Iran that I dare not even point them out only to reveal strategies that are better left unsaid. Chris Hedges is a fear monger.

24 hours of US bombing would be about all this "war" would take to decapitate the EVIL clerics of Iran and send Ahmadinejad running to rat infested holes in the ground. Ahmadinejad and the clerics war crimes will be forcing a sovereign country (the US and it?'s military allies) to act based upon war WMD rhetoric and CLEARLY Iran's self admitted unfriendly nuclear ambitions.

We could create such a humanitarian crisis that the Iranian people would beg the US and it's allies to come in and help. This would be terrible but it is a possible plan of attack.

The threat of war certainly makes sanctions seem more attractive. If we avoid war, how much do Americans have to pay Iran to be nice?

Iran's declaration of Israeli genocide may decide Iran's own future. Iran has made their murderous intensions known and it is nearing the time where sanctions will not stop Iran's own desire for war with the west. Do we stop them now or mobilize after they are able to wipe millions of allied troops off the face of the map?

I am all for giving Iran a BIG chance. I innately love all people (even sometimes evil clerics)... If they cannot get over their pride based upon prejudice, bigotry, interracial and religious hatred of their Israeli and American etc... brothers, well it is time to knock these clerics off their evil pedestal.

They have been given a choice of blessed peace or war and it is the Iranian clerics who have chosen the path of war and death for their people. So the ultimate BLAME for this impending war is on the heads of Iran's own ruling body of EVIL clerics.

On the same token if Christians were to rise up against Jews or Jews against Christians I would prescribe the same course of military action. ALL religious RADICALS are the "true" DOGS AND INFIDELS.

The earth's military has a nice cozy death and gravestone for ALL radical religionists no matter the brand. The US military is and should be blind to any radical religious ideologies. The US military only sees intent to cause harm to the innocent.

Islam has been the latest RELIGION to mass manufacture a sect of people who think it is right to kill others over religious preferences and individual freedoms. Peace seems to be the last option of their hateful God. Iran's clerics have created their own enemies with their dreams of terror and hate. This is what has sealed Iran's fate, NOT US aggression.

Religion without concern for the innocent among us is pure vanity and evil. It is a disease and cancer on the earth that may need "radiation therapy".

If Iran wants to go weapons grade nuclear we may need to show them weapons grade nuclear in action so the clerics can see their OWN evil come upon themselves first. A US led nuclear attack on Iran may succeed in what the sanctions and conventional war seem impotent to change.

Barack Obama is a big question mark concerning this or any war to protect the innocent. With McCain it seems we can be sure he will keep the pressure up on Iran and see this vital task of war or peace through. I would prefer that Iran give up it's weapons ambitions and join the free nations of the world in peace and true prosperity. Peace is the will of Allah and Iran's evil clerics have deeply offended Allah. I have a true love for the Iranian people in spite of the evil clerics who have hijacked their country and the beloved innocent people of Iran.

So when do we attack Iran's clerics? Iran's clerics have openly declared war on Israel and America already. They actively peruse these wars Israel is attacked on a constant basis due to Iran's influence. Actually we are justified in attacking Iran's evil clerics at any time now... It is the Iranian clerics who have kept their evil military plan. This secrecy coupled with their admitted desire to destroy innocents, justifies an attack ON OUR timeline not theirs.

Because we do not know the extent of their WMD (as with Saddam) we have no other choice but to assume the worst and hit them with maximum force sooner rather than later.

So should we only bomb military targets or target their infrastructure too?

If we target Iran's infrastructure too then within months, Iranians will be selling their nuclear parts for bread and clean water. How can Iran's military function without any infrastructure? Chris Hedges does not even address that "major point"... No roads, bridges, food, water, electricity etc and how does an Iranian army maintain it's ranks?

Considering that most Iranians hate the evil clerics well they simply won't hold their ranks and they will dessert their troops waiting for the freedom fighters to come and liberate them as we did in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Iran is on a short fuse and time is no longer a luxury we can afford.

We attacked Saddam on vague information and we were still justified because of the element of the unknown but with Iran's clerics their intent is clearly evident.

Be careful RexRed, you risk the ire of JTT and neologist.

Hedge's bombast to assert bombast is stock in trade for JTT.

There is no doubt that a military conflict with Iran will have serious economic ramifications, but nothing the US can't weather. Europeans and China have more to worry about than us.

In any case, the do-nothing appeasers never calculate the impact of the same military action against Iran after it has nuked Israel.

Why not?

Because they have the fundamental conceit of believing that everyone in the world thinks like them, and that under no circumstances might they ever think like the rest of the world.

Finn, you sometimes appear to be brighter than this. You're simply repeating the old canards that you've been spoon fed by your government. They lied thru their teeth about Iraq. They lie thru their teeth about most everything and yet you just go on mouthing the memes.

There is no good reason to trust the US government on anything they say about Iran. They have been a bunch of pouting babies ever since they got tossed out of Iran on their keesters.

I'm not suggesting, nor have I ever suggested, [and I don't know anyone who has], that Iran nuke Israel. Major red herring, again, Finn.

How could Iran nuke Israel when it doesn't even have nukes? Why don't you bother to address the same question about Israel and its nukes?

You've seen just how badly the US is at doing anything military and even worse when it comes to "intelligence". Major f**kups and the ones that have to pay are the innocents of countries like Iraq, Vietnam, Iran, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, ...

I dreamed I was an atom bomb
Humans forged me from the tiniest of particles
They dropped me down onto the ground and ignited my fuse.
Within me electrons collided and an enormous cloud of evil energy emerged out from my soul
This energy split the atom and suddenly out of this broken atom poured a tempest of the sun's flairs
The flames rose up into the clouds and rained fallout and radiation down upon the earth's inhabitants
Suddenly the earth began to writhe and die and I felt that I had been used to cause so much harm
For I had not known that I could by a single word and deed become a killing machine, an implement of death and hardship
That with one push of my button I could be triggered and transformed
From a saintly source of clean energy into a messenger of death
That the sun which brings life could be reversed and used inside me to undo the creation of life
As the world cried and died at my feet I knew that life was it's own worse enemy
Only many years of time would heal the damage done by my own ignorance

The message of this dream is that no matter how small a matter our own words have a detrimental effect upon the world.
Even the least of sentiments can grow out from the heart and become a hardship for the people living around us
That the fallout from our actions can radiate out,
Be felt and cause harm for many years to come.
Unholy energy can burn and blight the world with its force and fiery hatred
And that idle words though thought insignificant are the greatest weapon of mass destruction.

RexRed
10/3/07

Which do you trust the most, the US, Israeli, or Iranian governments?

The US government is not threatening to attack Iran, and almost certainly will not.

The Israeli government displayed admirable restraint when Saddam lobbed scud missiles at them, and has never hinted at, let alone threatened the use of its nuclear weapons.

The Iranian government denies the holocaust and calls for the eradication of Israel. It fund terrorists in Lebanon, Palestine and Iraq. It is directly responsible for the explosive technology that has killed thousands of American soldiers. It represses its people and any and all Iranian institution that strives for a democratic foundation.

BTW - What is it with you and Cyclo and your infatuation with the concept of memes? Dawkinsonians I presume?

Of course you are not suggesting Iran should nuke Israel and I defy you to find any instance where I have accused you or anyone else of suggesting same.

My point, which in your rush to allege "red herring" you obviously missed, was that you and Hedge wish to warn of us of the dire consequences of a US or Israeli launched pre-emptive attack while completely disregarding the dire consequences of an Iranian attack, which would inevitably be met by a US and/or Israeli counter-attack.

Why is this?

Because you actually believe the Iranian theocracy in their protesting that their drive for nuclear power has only peaceful motivations?

Because you believe the Iranian theocracy is more rational than the US or Israeli governments?

Because Persians have been around for a long long time and no matter what their current incarnation, they would never do anything as crazy as make good on their crazy rhetoric?

The "Iranian Threat" is the threat of Iran seeking to obtain nuclear weapons, it is not the threat of the US or Israel manufacturing a reason to invade Iran.

A pre-emptive military strike against Iran is the worst possible response to this crisis, other than doing nothing and allowing Iran to obtain nukes.

China is doing deals with Iran and is happy to see a hot spot thousands of miles from its borders which occupies the concerns of the West.

Russia is doing deals with Iran and has such a nationalistic chip on its shoulder that it is happy to thwart the West even though it may be helping to create a danger for itself.

The Europeans are entirely feckless. They are afraid to use whatever soft power they still posses and rely on us to use hard power while they condemn us for it.

If the world (Which is to say Europe and the US) doesn't stop Iran from obtaining nukes through the use of tough economic and political sanctions, then it will proceed with it's aim to secure them.

If it proceeds, unchecked, in this aim, then Israel will intercede militarily.

Unlike you and your confreres, Israel does not have the luxury of ignorance. They cannot afford to believe that Iran is seeking nuclear power solely for reasons of energy. They do not believe the nonsense that Iran will not ever obtain nukes. They have every reason to believe that a madman who promises their annihilation will eventually attempt it.
They have no reason to believe that Europe will endure any real pain to prevent Iran from attacking Israel with nuclear weapons, and some reason to believe the US might let them take a hit before reacting.

Your pathological distrust and disdain for the American government has no focal point in this matter. America is not driving the crisis, Iran is, and America cannot, nor should it, control Israel in its response to an existential threat.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems clear that you and like-minded appeasers are of the opinion that we should simply allow Iran to obtain nuclear weapons. Your apparent arguments?

1) We and Israel have nukes. Who are we to insist that other nations cannot join the club?

2) The Iranian government is actually quite rational and would never actually use nuclear weapons, despite the fact that they lost hundreds of thousands of ill equipped soldiers by driving them into Iraqi attacks during the Iraq/Iran war.

3) It doesn't really matter that a bad actor like Iran that has pronounced its desire to be the major force in the region, and is engaged in all sorts of murderous skullduggery might have a nuclear arsenal to advance its aims.

4) The US and Israel are really, really big shits, and have coming to them whatever they get!

What should happen is the world coming together to make it economically and politically too dear for Iran to pursue it's quest for nukes.

Sad to say, this is not going to happen, and so we can expect Israel to take matters into its own hands, and the economic fall out will be the deserved harvest of the world.

IMO anyone stupid enough to be at war constantly... wasting resources and human life and saying it's because God is directing it is too f*cking stupid to l9ve anyway. Let them kill one another.

The problem is that these f*cking stupid Iranian (mullahs) are liable, with nukes, to kill quite a few only mildly stupid humans (Israeli and Iranian alike)

just leave the 50 states out of it.

Isolationist are you?

Pat Buchanan appeal to you?

Of course isolationism is not, at all, a ridiculous position to hold. Personally I think it is a mistaken position, but we can agree to disagree.

The primary argument against isolationism is that in a world, economically, governed by the Global Economy, no nation (even the most powerful USA) can prosper, let alone survive, as an island upon Economic/Politico Earth.

The secondary argument is that it is good for Americans for America to be the Top Dog in the world, and being the Top Dog means engagement.

I like both of these arguments.

There is, currently, an American Empire, although it differs drastically from any other empire in our world's history.

No matter how it resembles or differs from past empires, it is consistent that citizens of an empire, in general, benefit more greatly than do the barbarians.

Can the US really flip its collective bird at the rest of the world?

Yes, if Americans give up their love for low/discounted prices.

Yes, if Americans can look away from foreign crimes against humanity and content themselves with the realization that it ain't happening here.

Yes, if Americans can give up the incredible array of consumer choices they currently have.

Yes, if Americans are OK with a world that hates them far more for their isolationism than their interventionism.

I don't think so.