America and Israel about to purge Iran of its evil.

Israel buys figher jets

who's going to purge america and israel of their evil

The republicans of course..

In all seriousness, let's hope the fibre of democracy holds things in check.

I find that bran muffins to the trick nicely.

What does democracy have to do with it?

Is Israel going to have a referendum on whether or not it launches a pre-emptive strike?

(The YES position would probably win, come to think of it)

It is perfectly clear that Iran is on a track to add nukes to its arsenal. Does anyone seriously doubt this fact?

Thus there are only two possible reactions available to the rest of the world:

1) Stop Iran
2) Deal with a nuclear Iran

I don't believe that any Western nation believes that #2 is the option of first choice. Israel certainly doesn't.

The difference in positions tends to be how far a nation is willing to go with #1 before simply accepting #2.

Despite some tough talk from a few European leaders (noticibly Sarkozy), I think we can count on Europe to lose it's gumption long before condoning a military option.

Despite even tougher talk from American leaders, an American military strike is almost certainly not going to happen.

This leaves Israel.

Iran's president seems to be inviting an Israeli strike.

I'm sure India wasn't too keen on the prospect of a Pakistan with nukes, but they weren't listening to the the then Pakistani president ranting about wiping India off the face of the earth.

American Liberals make much of the need to understand the culture and fears and desires of our enemies, and yet they don't seem to care to do the same for our allies.

The public expression of a powerful madman's implicit desire to exterminate Jews is in the very recent history of Israel, and cannot be underestimated in terms of its shaping the national psyche.

It is all well and good for other nations to reach the conclusion that the public anti-semetic rants of the Iranian president are just hot air which will never be acted upon, but Jews have a recent experience with this sort of thing, and they have every reason to believe that such hot air is emminating from an inferno intended to incinerate them.

Israel, clearly, values its relationship with the US and is willing to repress its instinctual reactions to preserve that relationship - witness the Israeli response to Iraqi Scud attacks during the first Gulf War - but Jews have a legitimate reason not to trust any Western nation to go all the way to protect their existence, let alone their interests.

Israel is not going to sit back and let Iran go nuclear, nor should they.

The current government in Iran clearly presents an existential threat to Israel. With nukes they can achieve such an end.

If the worst happens and Iran nukes Tel Aviv, will it matter that the US invades Iran, and, just as importantly, can Israel rely on the US to do so?

We all know that Israel cannot begin to rely on any nation other than the US to protect it, and we also know that an unfailing commitment to Israel's security is not universal in terms of US politics.

Prediction:

The feckless attempts to urge Iran to abandon its nuclear ambitions will never succeed.

Israel will, at some point, decide that it can no longer wait for these feckless efforts to bear fruit and will take matters into their own military hands.

The world will howl when Israeli bombers drop ordinace all around Iran.

The Muslim World will, yet again, yowl for jihad, but do nothing in terms of national militaries.

Iran will declare war on Israel and hostilities will ensue with Iran's proxies in Syria, Palestine and Lebannon joining the fray.

Gas prices will sky rocket to $7.00 a gallon in the US, and the US economy will be dealt a heavy body blow.

Europe's economy will be dealt an even heavier blow, and the resulting severe downturn will lead to an even greater surge of anti-immigrant right wing parties.

All because the West doesn't have the foresight or cajones to cnfront Iran in a serious way right now.

The wolf at your door will not go away because you throw him your youngest child.

link

Well, so much for Finn's bombastic bluster.

Always a good purge:

Whatever transpires, it will not last for longer than some finite time. But, many people like a free lunch. The world never worked that way, so whether any country addresses the situation now or later, someone's comfort will be affected.

The problem is the U.S. would be so divided in its blame. Plus, the threat is not even against Israel for the long term, since longer range missiles, that could be purchased in the future, makes other countries and other continents under a potential threat.

In effect, if Israel deals with the situation, she may just be doing the "dirty work" that will benefit Europe for the remainder of the 21st century. But, is it not interesting that few want to see that perspective?

Be careful RexRed, you risk the ire of JTT and neologist.

Hedge's bombast to assert bombast is stock in trade for JTT.

There is no doubt that a military conflict with Iran will have serious economic ramifications, but nothing the US can't weather. Europeans and China have more to worry about than us.

In any case, the do-nothing appeasers never calculate the impact of the same military action against Iran after it has nuked Israel.

Why not?

Because they have the fundamental conceit of believing that everyone in the world thinks like them, and that under no circumstances might they ever think like the rest of the world.

Finn, you sometimes appear to be brighter than this. You're simply repeating the old canards that you've been spoon fed by your government. They lied thru their teeth about Iraq. They lie thru their teeth about most everything and yet you just go on mouthing the memes.

There is no good reason to trust the US government on anything they say about Iran. They have been a bunch of pouting babies ever since they got tossed out of Iran on their keesters.

I'm not suggesting, nor have I ever suggested, [and I don't know anyone who has], that Iran nuke Israel. Major red herring, again, Finn.

How could Iran nuke Israel when it doesn't even have nukes? Why don't you bother to address the same question about Israel and its nukes?

You've seen just how badly the US is at doing anything military and even worse when it comes to "intelligence". Major f**kups and the ones that have to pay are the innocents of countries like Iraq, Vietnam, Iran, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, ...

I dreamed I was an atom bomb
Humans forged me from the tiniest of particles
They dropped me down onto the ground and ignited my fuse.
Within me electrons collided and an enormous cloud of evil energy emerged out from my soul
This energy split the atom and suddenly out of this broken atom poured a tempest of the sun's flairs
The flames rose up into the clouds and rained fallout and radiation down upon the earth's inhabitants
Suddenly the earth began to writhe and die and I felt that I had been used to cause so much harm
For I had not known that I could by a single word and deed become a killing machine, an implement of death and hardship
That with one push of my button I could be triggered and transformed
From a saintly source of clean energy into a messenger of death
That the sun which brings life could be reversed and used inside me to undo the creation of life
As the world cried and died at my feet I knew that life was it's own worse enemy
Only many years of time would heal the damage done by my own ignorance

The message of this dream is that no matter how small a matter our own words have a detrimental effect upon the world.
Even the least of sentiments can grow out from the heart and become a hardship for the people living around us
That the fallout from our actions can radiate out,
Be felt and cause harm for many years to come.
Unholy energy can burn and blight the world with its force and fiery hatred
And that idle words though thought insignificant are the greatest weapon of mass destruction.

RexRed
10/3/07

Which do you trust the most, the US, Israeli, or Iranian governments?

The US government is not threatening to attack Iran, and almost certainly will not.

The Israeli government displayed admirable restraint when Saddam lobbed scud missiles at them, and has never hinted at, let alone threatened the use of its nuclear weapons.

The Iranian government denies the holocaust and calls for the eradication of Israel. It fund terrorists in Lebanon, Palestine and Iraq. It is directly responsible for the explosive technology that has killed thousands of American soldiers. It represses its people and any and all Iranian institution that strives for a democratic foundation.

BTW - What is it with you and Cyclo and your infatuation with the concept of memes? Dawkinsonians I presume?

Of course you are not suggesting Iran should nuke Israel and I defy you to find any instance where I have accused you or anyone else of suggesting same.

My point, which in your rush to allege "red herring" you obviously missed, was that you and Hedge wish to warn of us of the dire consequences of a US or Israeli launched pre-emptive attack while completely disregarding the dire consequences of an Iranian attack, which would inevitably be met by a US and/or Israeli counter-attack.

Why is this?

Because you actually believe the Iranian theocracy in their protesting that their drive for nuclear power has only peaceful motivations?

Because you believe the Iranian theocracy is more rational than the US or Israeli governments?

Because Persians have been around for a long long time and no matter what their current incarnation, they would never do anything as crazy as make good on their crazy rhetoric?

The "Iranian Threat" is the threat of Iran seeking to obtain nuclear weapons, it is not the threat of the US or Israel manufacturing a reason to invade Iran.

A pre-emptive military strike against Iran is the worst possible response to this crisis, other than doing nothing and allowing Iran to obtain nukes.

China is doing deals with Iran and is happy to see a hot spot thousands of miles from its borders which occupies the concerns of the West.

Russia is doing deals with Iran and has such a nationalistic chip on its shoulder that it is happy to thwart the West even though it may be helping to create a danger for itself.

The Europeans are entirely feckless. They are afraid to use whatever soft power they still posses and rely on us to use hard power while they condemn us for it.

If the world (Which is to say Europe and the US) doesn't stop Iran from obtaining nukes through the use of tough economic and political sanctions, then it will proceed with it's aim to secure them.

If it proceeds, unchecked, in this aim, then Israel will intercede militarily.

Unlike you and your confreres, Israel does not have the luxury of ignorance. They cannot afford to believe that Iran is seeking nuclear power solely for reasons of energy. They do not believe the nonsense that Iran will not ever obtain nukes. They have every reason to believe that a madman who promises their annihilation will eventually attempt it.
They have no reason to believe that Europe will endure any real pain to prevent Iran from attacking Israel with nuclear weapons, and some reason to believe the US might let them take a hit before reacting.

Your pathological distrust and disdain for the American government has no focal point in this matter. America is not driving the crisis, Iran is, and America cannot, nor should it, control Israel in its response to an existential threat.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems clear that you and like-minded appeasers are of the opinion that we should simply allow Iran to obtain nuclear weapons. Your apparent arguments?

1) We and Israel have nukes. Who are we to insist that other nations cannot join the club?

2) The Iranian government is actually quite rational and would never actually use nuclear weapons, despite the fact that they lost hundreds of thousands of ill equipped soldiers by driving them into Iraqi attacks during the Iraq/Iran war.

3) It doesn't really matter that a bad actor like Iran that has pronounced its desire to be the major force in the region, and is engaged in all sorts of murderous skullduggery might have a nuclear arsenal to advance its aims.

4) The US and Israel are really, really big shits, and have coming to them whatever they get!

What should happen is the world coming together to make it economically and politically too dear for Iran to pursue it's quest for nukes.

Sad to say, this is not going to happen, and so we can expect Israel to take matters into its own hands, and the economic fall out will be the deserved harvest of the world.

IMO anyone stupid enough to be at war constantly... wasting resources and human life and saying it's because God is directing it is too f*cking stupid to l9ve anyway. Let them kill one another.

The problem is that these f*cking stupid Iranian (mullahs) are liable, with nukes, to kill quite a few only mildly stupid humans (Israeli and Iranian alike)

just leave the 50 states out of it.

Isolationist are you?

Pat Buchanan appeal to you?

Of course isolationism is not, at all, a ridiculous position to hold. Personally I think it is a mistaken position, but we can agree to disagree.

The primary argument against isolationism is that in a world, economically, governed by the Global Economy, no nation (even the most powerful USA) can prosper, let alone survive, as an island upon Economic/Politico Earth.

The secondary argument is that it is good for Americans for America to be the Top Dog in the world, and being the Top Dog means engagement.

I like both of these arguments.

There is, currently, an American Empire, although it differs drastically from any other empire in our world's history.

No matter how it resembles or differs from past empires, it is consistent that citizens of an empire, in general, benefit more greatly than do the barbarians.

Can the US really flip its collective bird at the rest of the world?

Yes, if Americans give up their love for low/discounted prices.

Yes, if Americans can look away from foreign crimes against humanity and content themselves with the realization that it ain't happening here.

Yes, if Americans can give up the incredible array of consumer choices they currently have.

Yes, if Americans are OK with a world that hates them far more for their isolationism than their interventionism.

I don't think so.