Mondale... Dukakis.... McGovern... Dean.

Sophia:

I won't do a line by line with your last post. Definitely not my style.

Rather, I will simply say we clearly disagree regarding the labeling of Dean. I believe Republican attempts to label him a "leftie" have been inaccurate and ineffective. You do not. And we clearly disagree regarding Bush's affiliation with Republican right-wing extremists.

Time certainly will tell which of us is more on target.

Have a really nice day !

I don't see how you can read the abundant material about how left Dean is percieved to be by the majority of voting Americans, and say, with a straight face, the left label hasn't stuck.

Its not just the conservatives, who give him the distinction.

But, you are correct. Time will answer this one.

Hello again ! What a gorgeous day it has been here in the northeast !

Sophia, I was thinking .... you would probably consider Bush a moderate while I consider him an extreme "rightie", or at least someone who panders to the extreme right.

I base my opinion upon, among other things, his appointment of Ashcroft, the position he took on stem cell research, his nominees for court positions, his tax cuts for the wealthy, his faith-based charities concept, and oh yes, his unilateral, guns-a-blazin', the-hell-with-diplomacy, Cheney/Rumsfeld directed, unjustified (IMO) invasion of Iraq.

But my point , I guess, is that it ought not be about labels. (To me, Dean is moderate, to you Bush is moderate) It ought to be about ideas, policies, and character.

Perhaps we can agree on that. That would make TWO things upon which we can agree (the first being full civil and legal right for all Americans, including gay Americans).

It ought not be about labels--but, to our detriment on both sides--it has a lot to do with labels, and the voting public's perception of what, if anything, those labels represent.

Sometimes, but not always.

Sometimes, as a society, we manage to rise above petty politics.

I dunno, angie; I would submit that while an individual here or there may rise above the fray, "Society" as a whole is all about "Petty Politics". I think that's precisely why meaningful change in society is a matter of generations and has been since the advent of "Society". How long was slavery socially acceptable, for just one tiny example, or the burning of witches, or the rape, looting, and pillaging of enemy cities? Untill relatively recently, it was "Socially Acceptable" for women to be denied the vote, as I recall.

Angie--

No. Society never rises above petty politics.
The game is entrenched.
We may see it for what it is... some of us may sidestep many of the pitfalls...
but we can't stop it, anymore than we can stop all gossip and innuendo in private life.

Sophia, you wrote: "No. We never do." The word "never" tends, more often than not, to close rather than open discussions of this type. (Just a personal thing with me.)

I do believe there are occasions upon which the American voter will be more affected by an issue, and how it hits home, than by strict party diatribe. Jobs, for example. If someone has been out of work for two years, he or she may be listening much more carefully to ALL candidates rather than merely accepting spoon-fed party labeling.

Timber, I know certain changes take time, even "generations". Civil rights legislation became the law of the land long before mainstream America had a chance to digest what it meant and, in most cases, to realize that the new laws were, in fact, in sync with what was really in their hearts. I'm hoping the same thing will happen soon (laws) for our gay American brothers and sisters, sons and daughters. Most Americans are good people, and they know in their hearts what is right and fair, especially when they see it reflected in the eyes of someone they love.

Sorry if I have gone off-track.

Gotta go !

When 'never' is applicable, we should use it.
Society never rises about petty politics.
It is the same every four years.
I said a person may sidestep the pitfalls, but you said 'society' manages to rise above petty politics. <--Wrong.

I have to agree with Sofia here (?!) but only if it is applicable to both sides. Bush has indulged in some pretty petty politics.

Agreed. Both sides, all sides-->undersides.

I still believe it can happen, and does.

And, therefore, I still question your (Sophia) use of the word never.

Why don't we leave it at that.

Never.


:wink:

Well, I'M leaving it at that. (This will be my last post here as I am cutting the cord to this thread.)

You may, of course, continue to repeat your point ad mauseam in an effort to convince ..... well, yourself !

.Have another really nice day !

...
Where did she go?

Well, I never!