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Small minds vs Open minds

 
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 02:34 am
If you don't mind, I see the debate between open and close mindedness as the eternal game: - my mind is bigger than yours.

Some pontificate about the size and the quality of their minds, often based on ethnic prejudices, which, mind you, are the sign of close mindedness.

Others think that the superiority of their mind, is given them by divine right. About those, I never mind.

I don't know if I have an open or close mind, I'm too busy trying to have one..

Many here see the speech as the reflect of the thought (mind).

I'm not so sure:

Quote:
But speech and thought are very different. Thought is private, wholly internal to the individual mind and not intrinsically connected with communication. Nothing in the nature of thought suggests it has to be―or even can be―communicated. Speech by contrast seems intrinsically connected with communication: it is public and external to the mind.


What some see as dumbness is often a lack of speech skills...
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 02:51 am
Quote:
If you don't mind, I see the debate between open and close mindedness as the eternal game: - my mind is bigger than yours.


Would a person with an open mind bother debating that another has a closed mind?

Quote:
I don't know if I have an open or close mind, I'm too busy trying to have one.


Does it work that way? I'm not sure that you can try to have an open mind (rather an allow an open mind), though I guess one can try to increase their perspective (which may lead you to allowing an open mind).
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Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 03:00 am
vikorr wrote:
Does it work that way? I'm not sure that you can try to have an open mind.

Who was saying that?

Francis wrote:
What some see as dumbness is often a lack of speech skills...


Or reading skills..
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aperson
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 03:15 am
The title is deceiving as the two aren't quite antonyms.

My mind was open, but two years of constant debate and speculation changed that. I am now a far-spectrum atheist. My mind is closed, but that does not make it any smaller. If anything, closed mindedness makes the mind stronger, or at least more stubborn. I'm not saying that it's a good thing, I'm just saying that a mind can be closed and large simultaneously.
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 03:16 am
Damn Me Laughing

well, mine comes and goes
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 03:35 am
Quote:
If anything, closed mindedness makes the mind stronger, or at least more stubborn. I'm not saying that it's a good thing, I'm just saying that a mind can be closed and large simultaneously.


What happens when the boundaries of the closed mind are crossed by others?

If a mind is closed, can it grow beyond the self imposed boundaries?
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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 10:40 am
a closed mind can't be a good thing. Not only is there always new information available for consideration but the mind needs to ripen with age. For many people this does not happen, they might be middle aged but they are essentially the same people they were in high school. But ideally the mind and the person as a whole keep growing. A closed mind is a mind that has shut down development, it has started the process of death. The same goes for the heart, a person with a closed heart is dieing.

Talking about open/close mindedness is not a game, it is an observation of what is. To be open minded and open hearted is to be fully alive, as apposed to dieing or dead as the closed mind and closed hearted are. Yes, one state is better than the other, open minded people are better than close minded people.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 10:42 am
often a closed mind is desirable and encouraged -- say in the army. you need soldiers with minds that are firmly closed, otherwise they start deserting.
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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 11:08 am
dagmaraka wrote:
often a closed mind is desirable and encouraged -- say in the army. you need soldiers with minds that are firmly closed, otherwise they start deserting.


I don't agree. Closed minds are encouraged by those who have a self interest in planting a seed in your mind a then having you close your mind to all competing ideas. The project is rarely in the individuals best interest, only in times of crisis or when all mental energy must be focused on one thing is it. The army is not a good example of this at least in Americas all volunteer force, such a state is only imposed during basic training. There is a ethos/culture that more or less must be accepted if the soldier is to fit in culturally, but one can accept these with either an open or a closed mind.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 11:14 am
really? u.s. army in your opinion encourages an open mind?
don't ask don't tell? war on terrorism? any war for that matter? it is WAY more than a certain ethos/culture that you have to accept and that gets brainwashed into you through uncountable drills.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 11:16 am
any army, for that matter. not just this one.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 11:28 am
hawkeye10 wrote:
a closed mind can't be a good thing. Not only is there always new information available for consideration but the mind needs to ripen with age. For many people this does not happen, they might be middle aged but they are essentially the same people they were in high school. But ideally the mind and the person as a whole keep growing. A closed mind is a mind that has shut down development, it has started the process of death. The same goes for the heart, a person with a closed heart is dieing.

Talking about open/close mindedness is not a game, it is an observation of what is. To be open minded and open hearted is to be fully alive, as apposed to dieing or dead as the closed mind and closed hearted are. Yes, one state is better than the other, open minded people are better than close minded people.


I agree with most of this - except perhaps for the categorical statement at the end of the 2nd paragraph. The truth is which is better (by some as yet undefined standard) depends on the circumstances.

It is an interesting, observable, and much commented on fact of the history of both mathematics and physics that most revolutionary discoveries and innovations - particularly those involving fundamental conceptual innovations - have almost all been made by very young people, mostly men in their early twenties (but that may be merely a cultural aberration). Moreover there are numerous examples of these same formerly young, revolutionary innovators themselves later stubbornly rejecting the next generation of conceptual innovation. Einstein is perhaps the most prominent example in the last century. This suggests that the intellectual "growing" and ripening" we do with age, education and experience not only may not contribute directly to some aspects of creativity and open mindedness, but may well bring its own "closing" of at least some facets of what we call "mind". Not necessarily all facets - experimental physics and applied mathematics & engineering generally do not exhibit this prominence of very young practicioners in the innovations and breakthroughs that occur. On the contrary, in these areas the innovators generally are much older and more experienced.

All this suggests that we have only scratched the surface of what we mean by "mind" in this discussion. Francis has correctly pointed out that our perceptions of the "minds" of others are just that - perceptions often heavily influenced by their ability to communicate and, by inference, ours to understand them.

We are also infected with various fallacious categorical prejudgements. Dagmar's example of the soldier is an example. I spent a career in naval aviation and am now enjoying a second successful one in the engineering & construction business. I can tell you that the young pilots in the squadrons I served in were generally far more alert to new information, even that which contradicted their prejudgements, and were far better at dealing actively with contradictions until the game played out than are the very well educated engineers I encounter in my present activities. The reason is simple - that is an elementary survival skill in air combat: it is not in engineering. I could make a similar observation about more senior military leaders and their counterparts in business (this too often defies popular prejudgements).

Finally, I believe that most of us vary a good deal by day, by season and by subject matter in the degrees of our open and closed mindedness. It is, after all an imperfect subjective judgement, made by an observer himself subject to the same uncertainties, and very often dependent on the specific issues in dispute as well as numerous other emotional and situational factors.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 11:59 am
i didn't say individual soldiers are closed-minded. i said that army, as an institution, encourages closed-mindedness, it's in its favor.
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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 12:18 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
i didn't say individual soldiers are closed-minded. i said that army, as an institution, encourages closed-mindedness, it's in its favor.
As the army is turning a civilian into a soldier it DEMANDS close mindedness, however this is not true after the reprogramming has been successful. There is a world of difference between the recruit and the career soldier, and what the Army wants from them. The modern army needs free thinkers to deal with all of the issues it faces. Gen David Petraeus is running Iraq because he is by all accounts the brightest and the most outside the box General that the Army could find. He has been successful where all the rest have failed.

BTW- My wife is a 22 year in 1SG (First Sargent) and just got back from her second tour in Iraq a few weeks ago.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 12:22 pm
hawkeye10 wrote:
As the army is turning a civilian into a soldier it DEMANDS close mindedness, however this is not true after the reprogramming has been successful.


do you realize how illogical this sounds?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 01:09 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
really? u.s. army in your opinion encourages an open mind?
don't ask don't tell? war on terrorism? any war for that matter? it is WAY more than a certain ethos/culture that you have to accept and that gets brainwashed into you through uncountable drills.


I believe the evidence would show that it is not a 'closed mind' that keeps a soldier from deserting, but rather an open mind. A closed mind does not allow a person to mentally adjust to anything different from what has been closed off. A closed mind is unable to accept and assimilate new information and change course as necessary to deal with it. Because a closed mind is ever resisting anything other than what has been chosen as believable, it cannot grow. And as what finally comes unbelievable is discarded, it in fact will shrink in scope and ability.

Those in the military are constantly dealing with new technology, new strategy, new rules, new situations, and sometimes must make instant life or death decisions. A closed mind would not be advisable.

And while a soldier committed to serve as a soldier is going to be a happier soldier than an uncommitted one, I don't think that closed and open minds are determined by political or social ideology at all. I do think any serviceman or woman with a closed mind would be miserable in the military.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 01:20 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
hawkeye10 wrote:
As the army is turning a civilian into a soldier it DEMANDS close mindedness, however this is not true after the reprogramming has been successful.


do you realize how illogical this sounds?


I agree it DOES sound illogical. However, in a perverse way, it is true. Basic training often involves inculcating the new recruit with a new, alien set of very fixed (i.e. close minded) rules, generally very different from those the recruit brought with him/her. As training and experience progress the same recruit is taught that he/she may be dealing with a foe who will bring yet another set of rules or principles to an engagement, and that quickly recognizing and adapting to them is necessary for survival and victory. There are of course as many historical examples of the failure to do this as success - however, it is the essential difference between the two.
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TilleyWink
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 01:34 pm
I always wonder who gets to be the judge of all this stuff that you can never find hard evidence for. All any of us can have is a belief or faith based on personal knowledge.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 01:41 pm
TilleyWink wrote:
I always wonder who gets to be the judge of all this stuff that you can never find hard evidence for. All any of us can have is a belief or faith based on personal knowledge.


In actuality, we all come to different conclusions based on personal "knowledge." We are subjective beings in a world of contrast and conflicts; and the human brain isn't all that reliable. That's the reason why there are scientists who also believe in religion, and religionists who do not trust science.

Even siblings in the same family will end up with different ideas about politics and religion.

BTW, small minds and open minds is moot; people view them differently depending on where one's belief happens to reside.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 01:46 pm
Also, my subjective mind tells me dag's opinions on this topic mirrors pretty close to mine.
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