Republicans block passage of climate bill in Senate

bush has already stated in unequivocal terms that he will veto this bill...

I can dig it. I mean, are people scared? Altruistic? I'd be amazed - the ability of the populace to think convenient thoughts is never to be taken lightly.

I'm inhabiting a household with cable at the moment, and I've been seeing these commercials that sell green-ness with the sex/drugs/rock-and-roll aesthetic. Stuff starts out cool, next thing you know it's a trail of bait leading into sunday-school. If 'going green' were a solution and nothing else - people would never recognize it as such - and if it's something not entirely definable by solution-ness, that's to say, give the devil his due - what's got to happen for the world to be saved, we all got to drive Priuses? - one must think what's in it for the populists...

I mean, if we've got a problem, we've got a problem, if we've got a solution we've got a solution - I could swear the presence of chromed-out tail-lights (or douche-bag commercials on daytime TV) means whatever said lights are affixed to exists apart from he afore mentioned continuum. Let's think outside the box here - how would we all feel about kelp-plantations? Fix the carbon, make O-2 - might have to do-in some species of planktophagic whale, but I can't see this medicine going down with 6-disc CD-changer as the spoonful of sugar.

It has to be profitable, Hanno. Once you can show the profit in 'green' technologies and innovations, the money men get on board, and then real progress happens.

Fortunately, 'green' and 'efficient' do tend to go hand in hand. In the long run, the two are hardly distinguishable.

Cycloptichorn

On an unfortuate angle, an huge percentage of things labeled "green" aren't. People have figured out that they can make money by pretending to be green instead of actually doing it. I read something the other day that something like 70% of all "green" consumer products available on retail store shelves aren't green in any way, shape or form.

Of course not. Most cardboard boxes are brown.

Ayayay, I mean, in the sense of whether you could give an example, I'm sure you're not wrong, but to make anything of a material nature from that generalization - the 'P' word comes to mind. Profitability is an aggregate function, so to call it the catalyst like it's one roller that can and will fall into place... We can get the catalyst effect, but if the fate of the world were to ride on consumer interest I'd kiss my ass goodbye, not only because we'd be screwed but because of the shame of having my noose tied by the proles Efficiency in quotes but without qualification - madre de dios, I blaspheme constantly, but no good can come of this - it's not like that word was asking for money, it just wanted to help us. Like say, give me tetrethyl-lead, let me plane down the heads, cut out the catalytic converter, switch the ring-gear, we'll be getting 35-to-the-gallon, low CO2, and burning down the tires. What does come out the pipe would be hot-contagion but it just goes to show, you've got to look at these things at the system level. Maybe you're thinking, it'll turn into conventional cost-cutting - as far as fossil fuels and normalization to whatever comes after it will, but your crystal ball needs a tune-up. The highest applicable system that matters to me, and by inference there-from you, is nation - up there, we go green, China steels some technology, developing countries get a leg-up, the rainforest gets finished off cuz they breed - it's not so much a direct correlation as you say.

I can't sort it out as per your wording, but for lack of a little switch in my apartment to do the job, what can we infer about saving the environment? Western civilization in the form of the USA is good, I mean, true or not the aesthetic pervades us. We could give to up, but I don't trust Mexico and/or China not to think they might need to settle the score, and right or wrong I don't want them running the joint. What we've been up to this last century has been aided by CO2 emitting behavior and it's always been an industrial kind of thing. People today think the GDP is evil because the only end of it they see is 'Hot-Rod-Buildoff-2007!' and iPods so the natural tendency is to bite the hand. I mean, we can cut down, switch to sodium reactors, fix the problem with kelp, but let us solve the damn problem if one exists and it's within our power to do so, rather'n cut off our nose to spite our face...

"Boxer argued that the bill would move America away from dependence on foreign oil and cut the cost of driving by lowering demand for gasoline and encouraging the development of cleaner technologies."

What a bunch of bullsh!t. This bill is another example of big government trying to manipulate the people. These politicians have been saying the same effing thing for 30 years and we are still dependant on foreign oil. They are using "greening and cleaning" as a rouse.

Amen brother - I mean we've got the government, it's supposed to be their thing to coordinate assessment/resolution of these little communal-interest hiccups and instead it's like - hey if you want to be a hipster, go green and let the G hit what little heavy industry/manufacturing is left up for a solution - like if someone wants to turn a profit or get laid it's everyone's business and you gotta pay your dues. The G always ends up pushing it on someone and demanding more power to do it.

Like you said, if they could get us off foreign oil, as opposed to just piling the phrase on the bill like it'll be the end of all suffering, why now? It might be drying up, we've just up-ended Iraq, and we've already paid maybe half our dues to the free market, with minimal help from the politicos, to have it deliver ethanol instead, which will be quite awesome. At this point foreign dependency is a paper tiger.

If they really wanted to solve a problem, even Gore himself, there'd be channels in place, but then, if they used tax dollars to research/subsidize a solution, not only could the effectiveness of the solution be judged by the people (god forbid) but there'd be nothing in it to tighten the choke-hold on our economic/personal liberties. Why work and risk failure (although a real statesman would be honored to make the call/take the fall for the cause) when you can grab power and fling the turd?

I get a kick out of "green" car ads. Cars have forever been one of the most recycled products made, but the public never knew it - all they think of are junkyards. Well, with the price of iron up near $500/ton, those junkyards are rapidly becoming scrapyards. Nobody is going to hold onto junk in hopes of selling a window motor for $150 when they can get $1000 or more for the heap.