OmSigDAVID wrote:Chai wrote:
The intruder is counting on surprise, so, you surprise him. I'm not saying I would have the presence of mind to do this, but if I did, I would actually grab him and pull him close, putting you on more equal footing. You can't get away from him, he can't get away from you. This gives you the opportunity to think of your next intelligent move, like going for the gun when the opportunity presents itself.
Immediately going into fight mode is not always the best answer. Playing possum, matching him, or doing something he isn't expecting may be.
Years ago, I read of a tourist on safari in Africa
who was pounced upon by a lion, when he was not expecting it.
He grabbed the lion 's tongue
( who probably was not expecting that ) and he delayed the situation
for quite a while and survived it.
( No, he did not French the lion. )
David
WOW!
Slick move!
I'll remember that if I'm ever attacked by a lion down by Town Lake.
I hear punching a shark in the nose works too (sometimes).
DrewDad wrote:http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/pdf/home.pdf
Quote:A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in an unintentional shooting (4 times), a criminal assault or homicide (7 times), or an attempted or completed suicide (11 times) than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.[2]
Keep telling yourself that owning a gun makes you safer....
Ok, let's delete the 11 suicides....if someone wants to kill themselves, and a gun is not available, they'll find another way.
So, we've eliminated 50% of the issue.
Unintentional shooting? Meaning a child shooting themselves or someone else?....how many of those 4 times would be eliminated by the adults being responsible.
When I read stories or hear in the news about a child involved in an unintentional shooting, it seems its usually a child who finds a gun that was not properly secured. I would be very interested in learning the statistics of how many guns were in an position to be easily found, or that the child knew the gun existed, as opposed to a child who went out of their way rummaging and search through the house in search of a gun, finding that one is in a place they cannot get to, and devising some way to get the gun out of that place. Did the child do that once out of the 4 times? Twice? Or did the dickens find that gun every time?
As far as the gun being used against you in a homicide or assault, yes, that's disturbing.
I have to wonder though, if the intruder was willing to take the gun from you, and shot you, was he not ready to do harm to you anyway?
How many times of those 7 did the shooting result from the "stop, I'll shoot. No....don't come any closer, I'll shoot you. All right now, stop approaching me, I mean it....." until they are on top of you.
If you do choose to have a gun in your home, it is of course with the mindset that warnings to the intruder are not necessary.
I agree with Roger. Find a reason not to have a gun, someone can find a reason to have one.
DrewDad wrote:http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/pdf/home.pdf
Quote:A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in an unintentional shooting (4 times), a criminal assault or homicide (7 times), or an attempted or completed suicide (11 times) than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.[2]
Keep telling yourself that owning a gun makes you safer....
Ok, let's delete the 11 suicides....if someone wants to kill themselves, and a gun is not available, they'll find another way.
So, we've eliminated 50% of the issue.
Unintentional shooting? Meaning a child shooting themselves or someone else?....how many of those 4 times would be eliminated by the adults being responsible.
When I read stories or hear in the news about a child involved in an unintentional shooting, it seems its usually a child who finds a gun that was not properly secured. I would be very interested in learning the statistics of how many guns were in an position to be easily found, or that the child knew the gun existed, as opposed to a child who went out of their way rummaging and search through the house in search of a gun, finding that one is in a place they cannot get to, and devising some way to get the gun out of that place. Did the child do that once out of the 4 times? Twice? Or did the dickens find that gun every time?
As far as the gun being used against you in a homicide or assault, yes, that's disturbing.
I have to wonder though, if the intruder was willing to take the gun from you, and shot you, was he not ready to do harm to you anyway?
How many times of those 7 did the shooting result from the "stop, I'll shoot. No....don't come any closer, I'll shoot you. All right now, stop approaching me, I mean it....." until they are on top of you.
If you do choose to have a gun in your home, it is of course with the mindset that warnings to the intruder are not necessary.
I agree with Roger. Find a reason not to have a gun, someone can find a reason to have one.
This wasn't just children. The statistics on children are so overwhelming that I didn't even bother posting them.
Of course, you'll find reasons to do what you want to do anyway. Just don't tell me that having a gun in the house makes you safer. It may make you fee safer.
Chai wrote:DrewDad wrote:No, because I don't have a gun in the house. A gun is far more likely to injure my kids than an intruder is.
I've taken other measures to protect my family.
How is a gun that is not accessible to children more likely to injure them than a intruder that you don't know, and could be capable of anything?
You keep a gun in a place where a child cannot possibly get to it, but where you can.
How is a gun to which a child does not have ready access going to help with an intruder who is "rushing at you," as you earlier posited, or when awaking to find an intruder standing over you?
So...if you woke up with an intruder hovering over you, you'd be able to go get the gun where you keep it safe from the kids, load it, aim, and shoot?
DrewDad wrote:This wasn't just children. The statistics on children are so overwhelming that I didn't even bother posting them.
Of course, you'll find reasons to do what you want to do anyway. Just don't tell me that having a gun in the house makes you safer. It may make you fee safer.
I don't understand what you mean.
Where the statisics you sited above including children or not? You saying "This wasn't just children" leads me to believe these were statistics on adults and children together. No? Or were these statistics soley regarding adults?
If the statistics included childen AND adults, then that means the portion of children involved with this is even lower. I don't think suicide with a gun would be much of an issue with kids. I don't know how many criminals assault a child or commit homicide on them. I'd guess the child also wouldn't be using the gun in self defense, unless it was a very unusual child.
That leaves the unintentional shootings, which were 4, as opposed to the other very improbable reasons that added up to 18.
Of the 4 unintentional shootings, how many were children? How many of the child unintentional shootings were the result of the carelessness of adults?
Mainly drewdad, I totally do not understand why you didn't even bother posting the statistics because they "are so overwhelming".
What in the world does that mean? You couldn't bring yourself to type out the words, or cut and paste them? If those numbers are different, how can you expect anyone to know what you are saying?.
Your saying "you'll find reasons to do what you want to do anyway" implies you'd rather have people do what you want..
I certainly don't care if someone keeps a gun in their home or not. However, I don't need to find a reason to keep a gun in my home, I would need a reason to NOT keep a gun in my home.
Albeit, I have no children. But if I did, that wouldn't change my view. I grew up with a gun in my home, never knew it was there until well into my teens. At that point I was shown the gun, told what it was for, and how to use it.
My husband raised a child, and has always had guns in the home. No one is more careful than him, or was more protective of his daughter, assuring not only she would not be harmed by others, but that there was no way she could harm herself.
Based on the statistics shown so far, I don't see one that provides a reason for me NOT to own a gun.
No one in my home is contemplating suicide. No one is going to unintentionally shoot someone. No one is going to try to commit homicide or assault against the other, which BTW I'd be curious if these homicides/assualts were a result of a within the family dispute, or the case of an intruder wresting a gun away from you, and using it against you.
Of course you'll find reasons to do what you want to do anyway. Just don't tell me that havinga a gun in the house makes you feel safer. It may make you safer.
Children and Gun Violence
In a single year, 3,012 children and teens were killed by gunfire in the United States, according to the latest national data released in 2002. That is one child every three hours; eight children every day; and more than 50 children every week. And every year, at least 4 to 5 times as many kids and teens suffer from non-fatal firearm injuries. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)
America and Gun Violence
American children are more at risk from firearms than the children of any other industrialized nation. In one year, firearms killed no children in Japan, 19 in Great Britain, 57 in Germany, 109 in France, 153 in Canada, and 5,285 in the United States. (Centers for Disease Control)
Unintentional shootings account for nearly 20 percent of all firearm-related fatalities among children ages 14 and under, compared with 3 percent for the entire U.S. population.
...
Nearly all childhood unintentional shooting deaths occur in or around the home. Fifty percent occur in the home of the victim and nearly 40 percent occur in the home of a friend or relative. Firearm ownership in the home (especially a firearm kept loaded and unlocked) is associated with an increased risk of unintentional firearm fatalities among children.
Most childhood unintentional shooting deaths involve guns that have been kept loaded and accessible to children and occur when children play with loaded guns. In one recent study of parents of children ages 4 to 12, more than half of gun-owning parents reported storing a firearm loaded or unlocked in their home.
An estimated 3.3 million children in the United States live in households with firearms that are always or sometimes kept loaded and unlocked.
Unintentional shootings among children most often occur when children are unsupervised and out of school. These shootings tend to occur in the late afternoon (peaking between 4 p.m. and 5 p.m.), during the weekend and during the summer months (June to August) and the holiday season (November to December).
More than 70 percent of unintentional firearm shootings involve handguns.
Rural areas have higher rates of firearm ownership and unintentional firearm-related deaths and injuries than urban and suburban areas. Shootings in rural areas are more likely to occur outdoors and with a shotgun or rifle; shootings in urban areas are more likely to occur indoors and with a handgun.
Earlier, i asked for an explanation from Chai about her remarks with regard to firearms in the home and the safety of children, vis-à-vis an allegation that guns make you safe from intruders.
Setanta wrote:Chai wrote:DrewDad wrote:No, because I don't have a gun in the house. A gun is far more likely to injure my kids than an intruder is.
I've taken other measures to protect my family.
How is a gun that is not accessible to children more likely to injure them than a intruder that you don't know, and could be capable of anything?
You keep a gun in a place where a child cannot possibly get to it, but where you can.
How is a gun to which a child does not have ready access going to help with an intruder who is "rushing at you," as you earlier posited, or when awaking to find an intruder standing over you?
Then, not long after . . .
dlowan, addressing Chai, wrote:So...if you woke up with an intruder hovering over you, you'd be able to go get the gun where you keep it safe from the kids, load it, aim, and shoot?
Perhaps i've missed it, but i've gone back through this thread and i have seen no plausible response to this question.
Chai wrote:DrewDad wrote:This wasn't just children. The statistics on children are so overwhelming that I didn't even bother posting them.
Of course, you'll find reasons to do what you want to do anyway. Just don't tell me that having a gun in the house makes you safer. It may make you fee safer.
I don't understand what you mean.
I mean, while a gun may give you a sense of security, it is more likely to harm someone in your household than it is to harm an intruder.
I dispute that, as you see in my reasonings. Actually, every time I think of someone including suicides in that figure of harming people more often than an intruder, I shake my head. That's half of your data, and should be counted as zero.
Chai wrote:Where the statisics you sited above including children or not? You saying "This wasn't just children" leads me to believe these were statistics on adults and children together. No? Or were these statistics soley regarding adults?
All shootings, in three cities, during the time of the study (12 months for one city, 18 months for the other two). Adult and child, presumably.
So, if it was adult AND child, the actual # of children were less, probably much less.
Chai wrote:If the statistics included childen AND adults, then that means the portion of children involved with this is even lower. I don't think suicide with a gun would be much of an issue with kids. I don't know how many criminals assault a child or commit homicide on them. I'd guess the child also wouldn't be using the gun in self defense, unless it was a very unusual child.
Er...
Chai wrote:That leaves the unintentional shootings, which were 4, as opposed to the other very improbable reasons that added up to 18.
Of the 4 unintentional shootings, how many were children? How many of the child unintentional shootings were the result of the carelessness of adults?
Not four unintentional shootings. Four times as many unintentional shootings as shootings in self defense.
Either way, one is able to disregard half the shooting off the bat, due to suicide, many more because I don't think children are commiting homocide or having it commented against them that often, and are only some unknown part of the 4 times as many, which is a even smaller part of the originall 22 times as many.
Chai wrote:Mainly drewdad, I totally do not understand why you didn't even bother posting the statistics because they "are so overwhelming".
What in the world does that mean? You couldn't bring yourself to type out the words, or cut and paste them? If those numbers are different, how can you expect anyone to know what you are saying?.
OK, then, I'll find the stats and post them.
Chai wrote:Your saying "you'll find reasons to do what you want to do anyway" implies you'd rather have people do what you want..
No. I'm saying people rationalize their choices, rather than facing the facts.
You'll notice drewdad, I was only repeating your words from before, only reversing 2 or 3 words.
Equally, I can say the same thing to you...People rationalize their choices. In this case by presenting flawed data that tries to convince people that (a) since intruders don't force people to commint suicide, that (b) unstable people who live together sometime in the heat of the moment kill each other (not spreading their unstable genes) and (c) some people carelessly leave weapons where children can get to them, when it is within their power to do otherwise, that it's practically a given people will be harmed if there is a gun in their home.
First let's get the probabilities straight.
Chai wrote:I certainly don't care if someone keeps a gun in their home or not. However, I don't need to find a reason to keep a gun in my home, I would need a reason to NOT keep a gun in my home.
OK. Your life, your choice, your risk. I'm not trying to change anybody's mind; I'm just saying don't tell me that my family is safer with a gun in the house.
Chai wrote:Albeit, I have no children. But if I did, that wouldn't change my view. I grew up with a gun in my home, never knew it was there until well into my teens. At that point I was shown the gun, told what it was for, and how to use it.
My husband raised a child, and has always had guns in the home. No one is more careful than him, or was more protective of his daughter, assuring not only she would not be harmed by others, but that there was no way she could harm herself.
If, at any time, there is a loaded gun in the house with a child, then that child is in danger. They tested four-year olds and found that 25% could pull a 10 pound trigger. 90% by the time they're nine.
Not if that child doesn't know where the gun is, or it is always unavailable to them. That being the case, 100% of all children are UNable to pull a 10 pound trigger.
Chai wrote:Based on the statistics shown so far, I don't see one that provides a reason for me NOT to own a gun.
OK.
Chai wrote:No one in my home is contemplating suicide. No one is going to unintentionally shoot someone. No one is going to try to commit homicide or assault against the other, which BTW I'd be curious if these homicides/assualts were a result of a within the family dispute, or the case of an intruder wresting a gun away from you, and using it against you.
I'm sure some were part of a family dispute. Don't worry. It can't happen to you.
That is true, that will not happen in my family.
Chai wrote:Of course you'll find reasons to do what you want to do anyway. Just don't tell me that havinga a gun in the house makes you feel safer. It may make you safer.
On average, no it does not make you safer.
DrewDad wrote:Chai wrote:DrewDad wrote:This wasn't just children. The statistics on children are so overwhelming that I didn't even bother posting them.
Of course, you'll find reasons to do what you want to do anyway. Just don't tell me that having a gun in the house makes you safer. It may make you feel safer.
I don't understand what you mean.
I mean, while a gun may give you a sense of security, it is more likely to harm someone in your household than it is to harm an intruder.
I dispute that, as you see in my reasonings. Actually, every time I think of someone including suicides in that figure of harming people more often than an intruder, I shake my head. That's half of your data, and should be counted as zero.
Even after you eliminate homicides and suicides, the figures still clearly show that unintentional shootings are far higher than shootings in self defense. Your "reasonings" do not affect the final numbers
Chai wrote:Where the statisics you sited above including children or not? You saying "This wasn't just children" leads me to believe these were statistics on adults and children together. No? Or were these statistics soley regarding adults?
All shootings, in three cities, during the time of the study (12 months for one city, 18 months for the other two). Adult and child, presumably.
So, if it was adult AND child, the actual # of children were less, probably much less.
I'm not sure why you're hung up on only including children in people who are at risk of being unintentionally injured by a firearm. I've posted separate statistics for children.
Chai wrote:If the statistics included childen AND adults, then that means the portion of children involved with this is even lower. I don't think suicide with a gun would be much of an issue with kids. I don't know how many criminals assault a child or commit homicide on them. I'd guess the child also wouldn't be using the gun in self defense, unless it was a very unusual child.
Er...
Chai wrote:That leaves the unintentional shootings, which were 4, as opposed to the other very improbable reasons that added up to 18.
Of the 4 unintentional shootings, how many were children? How many of the child unintentional shootings were the result of the carelessness of adults?
Not four unintentional shootings. Four times as many unintentional shootings as shootings in self defense.
Either way, one is able to disregard half the shooting off the bat, due to suicide, many more because I don't think children are commiting homocide or having it commented against them that often, and are only some unknown part of the 4 times as many, which is a even smaller part of the originall 22 times as many.
So, you're happy because with a gun in the house you or your husband are "only" four times as likely to be shot as an intruder?
Chai wrote:Mainly drewdad, I totally do not understand why you didn't even bother posting the statistics because they "are so overwhelming".
What in the world does that mean? You couldn't bring yourself to type out the words, or cut and paste them? If those numbers are different, how can you expect anyone to know what you are saying?.
OK, then, I'll find the stats and post them.
Chai wrote:Your saying "you'll find reasons to do what you want to do anyway" implies you'd rather have people do what you want..
No. I'm saying people rationalize their choices, rather than facing the facts.
You'll notice drewdad, I was only repeating your words from before, only reversing 2 or 3 words.
Equally, I can say the same thing to you...People rationalize their choices. In this case by presenting flawed data that tries to convince people that (a) since intruders don't force people to commint suicide, that (b) unstable people who live together sometime in the heat of the moment kill each other (not spreading their unstable genes) and (c) some people carelessly leave weapons where children can get to them, when it is within their power to do otherwise, that it's practically a given people will be harmed if there is a gun in their home.
First let's get the probabilities straight.
As I said, I'm not trying to force you to do anything you want to do. Keep your gun, feel safe. But I'll say again, on average having a gun does not make one safer. Essentially, you're rolling the dice.
Chai wrote:I certainly don't care if someone keeps a gun in their home or not. However, I don't need to find a reason to keep a gun in my home, I would need a reason to NOT keep a gun in my home.
OK. Your life, your choice, your risk. I'm not trying to change anybody's mind; I'm just saying don't tell me that my family is safer with a gun in the house.
Chai wrote:Albeit, I have no children. But if I did, that wouldn't change my view. I grew up with a gun in my home, never knew it was there until well into my teens. At that point I was shown the gun, told what it was for, and how to use it.
My husband raised a child, and has always had guns in the home. No one is more careful than him, or was more protective of his daughter, assuring not only she would not be harmed by others, but that there was no way she could harm herself.
If, at any time, there is a loaded gun in the house with a child, then that child is in danger. They tested four-year olds and found that 25% could pull a 10 pound trigger. 90% by the time they're nine.
Not if that child doesn't know where the gun is, or it is always unavailable to them. That being the case, 100% of all children are UNable to pull a 10 pound trigger.
It is clear that you've never raised a child. Follow some of the links on child firearm safety; even the NRA says "Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use."
Chai wrote:Based on the statistics shown so far, I don't see one that provides a reason for me NOT to own a gun.
OK.
Chai wrote:No one in my home is contemplating suicide. No one is going to unintentionally shoot someone. No one is going to try to commit homicide or assault against the other, which BTW I'd be curious if these homicides/assualts were a result of a within the family dispute, or the case of an intruder wresting a gun away from you, and using it against you.
I'm sure some were part of a family dispute. Don't worry. It can't happen to you.
That is true, that will not happen in my family.
Chai wrote:Of course you'll find reasons to do what you want to do anyway. Just don't tell me that havinga a gun in the house makes you feel safer. It may make you safer.
On average, no it does not make you safer.
Haven't seen you present any evidence to that effect. You could almost say the same about having a set of ginsu knives in your home.
I've never claimed that having ginsu knives will make me safe, either.
Again, on average having a gun makes you less safe. You are clearly not average.
In the first nationally representative study to examine the relationship between survey measures of household firearm ownership and state level rates of suicide in the U.S., researchers at the Harvard School of Public Health (HSPH) found that suicide rates among children, women and men of all ages are higher in states where more households have guns. The study appears in the April 2007 issue of The Journal of Trauma.
...
The association between firearm ownership and suicide was due to higher gun-related suicides; non-gun-related suicide rates were not significantly associated with rates of firearm ownership. Also, suicide attempts using firearms, which constitute just 5% of all fatal and non-fatal attempts, are highly lethal--more than 90% of all suicidal acts by firearm are fatal. By comparison, individuals who use drugs to attempt suicide, which constitute 75% of all attempts, die in the attempt less than 3% of the time.
...
1 ) to enable the citizens to overthrow governments, as the Authors had just done,
being leery of governments
Those aren't scenerios from novels. Doesn't matter to me if you think that or not.
I was reading once in the book The Gift of Fear, how this woman was pumping gas at a station, and saw she was being approached in an agressive manner by someone who was obviously going to mug her.
Instead of trying to escape into her car, which she didn't have time to do, or run, which wouldn't work, she caught him by surprise.
She called out loudly "Hey! How you doin??!! I'm Davids sister, remember me?"......counting on the fact that everyone knows a David.
Well ****, he wasn't going to mug someone who could identify him, it's David's sister for Christs sake, she probably knows where he lives.
My personal scenerio?
No, it happened in the middle of the night. When I was alone, in bed, with no gun.
In the first instance, actually the intruder was already in my apt, and I came home unexpectedly during the day and caught him there.
