? Well Water Treatment products - Watts, EcoWater

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Hi all,

First post after reading quite a few here tonight.

We are on an untreated well system (home built in '95 with copper plumbing next to a small lake) down here in central FL. There is a strong sulfur/egg smell, regardless of water temp, sometimes fine black silt comes out (greasy feeling when touched) and slimy orange/brown build up in toilet tanks. We've had a number of local water treatment dealers come by and they are all in the range of $3,500 to $4,500 + for water softener, "chlorinator" and RO at the kitchen sink.

The last guy I had come by was a local EcoWater dealer after doing a little research on the web for "trusted name brands". I like the "warm fuzzies" I get when I can look up a product I purchase and find LOTS of info online.

Anyway, my wife met with him while I was at work and came back with some info.

One, I was surprised that the water softer/treatment sytem he was recommending was not EcoWater, but the Watts dual stacked tank system (model w3011-w100sm-st1) (5 yrs wrty on metered valve and lifetime on tanks) (not sure of the price, but found online between $1,000 and $2000)

I believe the RO is the EcoWater ERO 375 ($795) and the "chlorzonator" is a "patented dry pellet automatic chlorine injection system - no moving parts, nothing to rust or corode" ($650)

His tests revealed the following:
Hardness - 8 gpg
Iron - .5 ppm
ph -(+ scaling/ -corrosion) 7.4
no detectable nitrates
TDS -190 ppm
no detectable sulfur (ppm) -despite odor

My main question is about the Watts system - not much info out there except for the WATTS website. (I guess they bought out Alamo Water Refiners in 2005) Wondering if anyone has had any experience with them.

Any info from the experts here on anything I've mentioned here would be awesome!

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The Watts w3011-w100sm-st1 softener is a basically generic softener assembled from readily available industry standard parts.

They are using a Clack WS1 control valve which is the new kid on the block (8 years or so) versus a Fleck control valve (decades and decades and decades of proven field service) that outsells all other control valves combined... worldwide.

This Watts model is using a piggyback tank configuration with resin in one tank and carbon in the other tank rather than two unique units which is usually done.

Watts does not seem to provide any substantive specs on their systems which makes an informed decision difficult.

My first concern would be if the SFR (Service Flow Rate) of the (bottom) 10x35 resin tank in series with the (top) 10x24 carbon tank is adequate for your installation.

My second concern would be if the small volume of resin in the 10x35 tank will provide enough hardness removal capacity so the softener doesn't regenerate too often which wastes water and salt.

Kinetico offers a piggyback design BUT they use a twin resin and carbon tank configuration (4 tanks - 2 of each) with a packed bed (and counter-current regeneration) to increase the hardness removal capacity and provide soft water 24/7 without interruption.

How many people in the house?
How many bathrooms?
Any water hogging appliances... hot tub, Jacuzzi, or the like?

You might want to contact a couple local independent water treatment professionals in your area and have them quote your needs for comparison. They will be the people in the Yellow Pages without a brand name in their ad. Not a bad idea to get Kinetico to quote you. They are usually very thorough and you might learn a lot from the presentation.

Also, ask your neighbors what they are doing for water treatment. They may tell you who is good or who to avoid.

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Re: ? Well Water Treatment products - Watts, EcoWater

animachina wrote:

We are on an untreated well system (home built in '95 with copper plumbing next to a small lake) down here in central FL. There is a strong sulfur/egg smell, regardless of water temp, sometimes fine black silt comes out (greasy feeling when touched) and slimy orange/brown build up in toilet tanks. We've had a number of local water treatment dealers come by and they are all in the range of $3,500 to $4,500 + for water softener, "chlorinator" and RO at the kitchen sink.

The last guy I had come by was a local EcoWater dealer after doing a little research on the web for "trusted name brands". I like the "warm fuzzies" I get when I can look up a product I purchase and find LOTS of info online.

IMO those "warm fuzzies" caused by search results for "trusted brand names" are the wrong yardstick unless you know who is telling you to trust the brand name. Usually that would be done in marketing by the company in their advertisements. Ecowater dealers are usually very high priced for whatever they are selling.

animachina wrote:

One, I was surprised that the water softer/treatment sytem he was recommending was not EcoWater, but the Watts dual stacked tank system (model w3011-w100sm-st1) (5 yrs wrty on metered valve and lifetime on tanks) (not sure of the price, but found online between $1,000 and $2000) I believe the RO is the EcoWater ERO 375 ($795)

Combination, over under type equipment, is very difficult to work on. Both tanks are small because of their configuration so the SFR gpm for filtration and softening is greatly reduced (undersized equipment), and the pressure loss across the filter/softener will be greater than the correctly sized separate filter and softener. And you will usually pay about the same or slightly higher for the two separate pieces but you get a lot more for the money; more media and another control valve etc.. The $800 for an RO is ridiculous, but not as bad as the $1000+ for Kinetico....

animachina wrote:

My main question is about the Watts system - not much info out there except for the WATTS website. (I guess they bought out Alamo Water Refiners in 2005) Wondering if anyone has had any experience with them.

Years ago I used to have an account with Alamo. Watts is a plumbing material manufacturer that bought up a number of water treatment manufacturers a few years ago and IIRC, dropped the names and call everything Watts now.

animachina wrote:

Any info from the experts here on anything I've mentioned here would be awesome!

Do you want to be dependent on a local dealer, or independent and fix a problem on your equipment yourself when needed?

If you are a 'normal' guy, you'll not like having to have a local dealer come out to fix your stuff and only be able to buy parts from him for whatever he wants to charge you for them. That's what you get with national brand equipment.

If you want to be independent, you can buy from me or another online/Internet dealer and install it yourself or hire a plumber or handyman and pay less for the same thing. Then you can buy parts from many online or local dealers and replace a part at your convenience if needed.

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justalurker wrote:

They are using a Clack WS1 control valve which is the new kid on the block (8 years or so) versus a Fleck control valve (decades and decades and decades of proven field service) that outsells all other control valves combined... worldwide.

justalurker, since you own/owned a softener with a Clack WS-1 control valve, and portray yourself as an expert in water softeners, can you list for animachina which Fleck valves include the same features that the Clack WS-1 has? And can you list for him the national brand name softeners that historically (for 35+ years) used Fleck valves exclusively that now use the Clack WS-1? Also, he probably would appreciate your opinion as to why those companies would do that.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

justalurker wrote:
They are using a Clack WS1 control valve which is the new kid on the block (8 years or so) versus a Fleck control valve (decades and decades and decades of proven field service) that outsells all other control valves combined... worldwide.

Is there ANYTHING in that out of context quote from another forum that is not ACCURATE?

As to animachina's questions, I addressed them in my post attempting to help him (her) albeit without the self-serving sales pitch you included at the end of your post attempting to help yourself to a sale.

Seems that you're still holdin' your own.

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Thanks for the info Justalurker and Gary.

From what I understand, Clack was formed by former Fleck guys who took their Fleck knowledge and tried to create a superior product.

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animachina wrote:

From what I understand, Clack was formed by former Fleck guys who took their Fleck knowledge and tried to create a superior product.

Tried and superior are the operative words in that statement.

Saying it's superior or ranting that it's superior or whining that it's superior or wishing that it's superior isn't proving that it's superior.

When the Clack has a field record that approaches the enviable Fleck field service record then we will know. For now, the Clack WS1 is a less proven pretender with promise at a good profit margin for softener sellers... and that's why some toot it's horn.

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Where in Florida are you?

Andy

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Andy CWS wrote:

Where in Florida are you?

Andy

Northern Central Florida, Lake county

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animachina,

Thanks, can you write me off forum at <awc222> since your PM options are not n effect yet.

Thanks,
Andy

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Water softeners and RO units are NOT Eco-Friendly!
I find it hard to understand how a company can call itself "EcoWater" when they sell softeners/conditioners that are without exception salt or potassium based.

Putting Chlorides into the environment whether by sodium chloride or potassium chloride is not a good thing.

Here are three examples of many municipalities that have either banned brine discharge or are at least trying to educate their customers about the environmental damage their water softeners are causing.

"EcoWater" then pairs water softeners with reverse osmosis units, which do a fine job of filtering out unwanted contaminants, yet waste 3-4 gallons of water for every gallon produced! I can't see how either of those solutions is good for the environment.

For proven technology in whole house filtration that eliminates hard water scaling without water waste and without brine discharge, you might want to check out ECOsmarte Water. Municipal and Well systems.

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animachina wrote:

Thanks for the info Justalurker and Gary.

From what I understand, Clack was formed by former Fleck guys who took their Fleck knowledge and tried to create a superior product.

Clack Corp is older (formed in 1946) and larger than Fleck (1953 or 1954), and is still family owned and operated while Fleck is owned by a holding company since about 1995 or 1996.

Yes three ex Fleck engineers with 28, 22 and 18 years with Fleck designed the Clack line of control valves and are still with Clack AFAIK. That includes the one that I've been told invented the 5600 although I've never asked him to make sure of that.

Anyone saying that Clack valves are less in any way than Fleck simply has an agenda or is miserably uninformed; both apply in this instance.

Just so you know, Justalurker used to rave about his softener with a Clack WS-1 control valve, that was until Aug 2005. If you ask him, maybe he will tell you why he doesn't mention it when he talks to members about control valves.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

Just so you know, Justalurker used to rave about his softener with a Clack WS-1 control valve, that was until Aug 2005. If you ask him, maybe he will tell you why he doesn't mention it when he talks to members about control valves.

As written before and on many forums, and which Gary Slusser is well aware but he loves to beat dead horses...

Yes, I bought a Clack from the Quack and thought I'd made the right decision till it was brain dead right out of the box. An exception I'm sure buy not an impressive start. Along with that problem I didn't get what I ordered and the seller refused to make good. No "raves" for sure and satisfaction was short lived.

I resolved the problem and setup the softener properly, wisely going against the programming recommendations of the seller, the softener was competent. After living with it for a while I decided to move on to another softener and relegated the Clack to being a loaner for a buddy. When he decided to buy a new softener the Clack was relegated to door stop duty. Every so often I hook up the Clack to remind myself why I like my other softener better. Having a spare isn't a bad idea and the Clack is a reminder of the worst of buying on the internet.

As Gary is well aware, and as anyone can read, I posted "They are using a Clack WS1 control valve which is the new kid on the block (8 years or so) versus a Fleck control valve (decades and decades and decades of proven field service) that outsells all other control valves combined... worldwide" and then "when the Clack has a field record that approaches the enviable Fleck field service record then we will know. For now, the Clack WS1 is a less proven pretender with promise at a good profit margin for softener sellers... and that's why some toot it's horn".

Every word is true. I said "the Clack WS1 is a less proven pretender with promise" and that is simply true. It is LESS proven than Fleck control valves.

As for agendas... keyboarding for sales on other people's forums is a decidedly self-serving agenda and the ulterior motive of Gary Slusser's posts. While many post to help others Gary Slusser posts to help himself.

There are lots of competent softeners out there at all price points but when you get down to it you're really buying service or no service. Be smart and buy the dealer.

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justalurker wrote:

Is there ANYTHING in that out of context quote from another forum that is not ACCURATE?

Out of context.... another forum? Steve you're losing it, you said that in the second paragraph of your first reply in this thread on this forum just a couple days ago!

justalurker wrote:

Seems that you're still holdin' your own.

Why yes I am and this is my best April over the last 6 years, thanks, I'm grateful. I couldn't do it without you doing what you do on that other (DIY) forum and the posies place.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

justalurker wrote:
Is there ANYTHING in that out of context quote from another forum that is not ACCURATE?

Out of context.... another forum? Steve you're losing it, you said that in the second paragraph of your first reply in this thread on this forum just a couple days ago!

Yea, you got me, I did a Slusser... typed before I thought. Was thinking of something else.

But, since you bring it up... is there ANYTHING in that quote "They are using a Clack WS1 control valve which is the new kid on the block (8 years or so) versus a Fleck control valve (decades and decades and decades of proven field service) that outsells all other control valves combined... worldwide" that is not accurate?

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Andy CWS wrote:

animachina,

Thanks, can you write me off forum at <awc222> since your PM options are not n effect yet.

Thanks,
Andy

awc222 at yahoo dot com

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justalurker wrote:

Gary Slusser wrote:
justalurker wrote:
Is there ANYTHING in that out of context quote from another forum that is not ACCURATE?

Out of context.... another forum? Steve you're losing it, you said that in the second paragraph of your first reply in this thread on this forum just a couple days ago!

Yea, you got me, I did a Slusser... typed before I thought. Was thinking of something else.

But, since you bring it up... is there ANYTHING in that quote "They are using a Clack WS1 control valve which is the new kid on the block (8 years or so) versus a Fleck control valve (decades and decades and decades of proven field service) that outsells all other control valves combined... worldwide" that is not accurate?

Wow, you guys need to get a private forum just to argue about Fleck and Clack and your other personal water treatment experiences and beliefs. I don't think you're helping ANYBODY with these little arguments that seem to take over every single topic in this forum.

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animachina,

That's why I wanted to speak to you in a private message; I hope to be able to help you. If not, then that's OK too.

best of luck
Andy

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animachina wrote:

Wow, you guys need to get a private forum just to argue about Fleck and Clack and your other personal water treatment experiences and beliefs. I don't think you're helping ANYBODY with these little arguments that seem to take over every single topic in this forum.

My apologies. I believe I answered your original question in a concise and factual manner with my first post in this thread.

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justalurker wrote:

Yes, I bought a Clack from the Quack and thought I'd made the right decision till it was brain dead right out of the box.

Now that's new, you've never mentioned "dead out of the box" before and you've had it since July 15 or 16 2004! It seems that since you wanted one of those water powered non-electric wonders you forgot to plug your Clack WS-1 in and just remembered that.

justalurker wrote:

Every so often I hook up the Clack to remind myself why I like my other softener better.

In other words you can't make up your mind.

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? Well Water Treatment products - Watts, EcoWater

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