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The Monty Hall Paradox

 
 
Foxfyre
 
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 07:54 pm
As this seems to be a mathematical paradox more than anything else, I suppose it belongs in this forum.

The premise is to play the Monty Hall gameshow game by choosing the door that the big prize conceals. But before that door is opened, another door will be opened revealing a booby prize and you must then decide on whether to stay with your original choice or choose the other unopened door. My rationale is that once the choice is down to two doors, you have a 50-50 chance of being right no matter which door you pick. Not so says those who analyze the probability of the big prize being behind the chosen door.

So try it a few times for yourself here:

PLAY THE GAME HERE

And then see if your experience matches the explanation of probability:

And Behind Door No. 1, a Fatal Flaw
By JOHN TIERNEY
Published: April 8, 2008
The Monty Hall Problem has struck again, and this time it's not merely embarrassing mathematicians. If the calculations of a Yale economist are correct, there's a sneaky logical fallacy in some of the most famous experiments in psychology.

The economist, M. Keith Chen, has challenged research into cognitive dissonance, including the 1956 experiment that first identified a remarkable ability of people to rationalize their choices. Dr. Chen says that choice rationalization could still turn out to be a real phenomenon, but he maintains that there's a fatal flaw in the classic 1956 experiment and hundreds of similar ones. He says researchers have fallen for a version of what mathematicians call the Monty Hall Problem, in honor of the host of the old television show, "Let's Make a Deal."

Here's how Monty's deal works, in the math problem, anyway. (On the real show it was a bit messier.) He shows you three closed doors, with a car behind one and a goat behind each of the others. If you open the one with the car, you win it. You start by picking a door, but before it's opened Monty will always open another door to reveal a goat. Then he'll let you open either remaining door.

Suppose you start by picking Door 1, and Monty opens Door 3 to reveal a goat. Now what should you do? Stick with Door 1 or switch to Door 2?

Before I tell you the answer, I have a request. No matter how convinced you are of my idiocy, do not immediately fire off an angry letter. In 1991, when some mathematicians got publicly tripped up by this problem, I investigated it by playing the game with Monty Hall himself at his home in Beverly Hills, but even that evidence wasn't enough to prevent a deluge of letters demanding a correction.

Before you write, at least try a few rounds of the game, which you can do by playing an online version of the game. Play enough rounds and the best strategy will become clear: You should switch doors.

This answer goes against our intuition that, with two unopened doors left, the odds are 50-50 that the car is behind one of them. But when you stick with Door 1, you'll win only if your original choice was correct, which happens only 1 in 3 times on average. If you switch, you'll win whenever your original choice was wrong, which happens 2 out of 3 times.

Now, for anyone still reading instead of playing the Monty Hall game, let me try to explain what this has to do with cognitive dissonance.

For half a century, experimenters have been using what's called the free-choice paradigm to test our tendency to rationalize decisions. This tendency has been reported hundreds of times and detected even in animals. Last year I wrote a column about an experiment at Yale involving monkeys and M&Ms.

The Yale psychologists first measured monkeys' preferences by observing how quickly each monkey sought out different colors of M&Ms. After identifying three colors preferred about equally by a monkey ?- say, red, blue and green ?- the researchers gave the monkey a choice between two of them.

If the monkey chose, say, red over blue, it was next given a choice between blue and green. Nearly two-thirds of the time it rejected blue in favor of green, which seemed to jibe with the theory of choice rationalization: Once we reject something, we tell ourselves we never liked it anyway (and thereby spare ourselves the painfully dissonant thought that we made the wrong choice).

But Dr. Chen says that the monkey's distaste for blue can be completely explained with statistics alone. He says the psychologists wrongly assumed that the monkey began by valuing all three colors equally.

Its relative preferences might have been so slight that they were indiscernible during the preliminary phase of the experiment, Dr. Chen says, but there must have been some tiny differences among its tastes for red, blue and green ?- some hierarchy of preferences.

If so, then the monkey's choice of red over blue wasn't arbitrary. Like Monty Hall's choice of which door to open to reveal a goat, the monkey's choice of red over blue discloses information that changes the odds. If you work out the permutations (see illustration), you find that when a monkey favors red over blue, there's a two-thirds chance that it also started off with a preference for green over blue ?- which would explain why the monkeys chose green two-thirds of the time in the Yale experiment, Dr. Chen says.

Does his critique make sense? Some psychologists who have seen his working paper answer with a qualified yes. "I worked out the math myself and was surprised to find that he was absolutely right," says Daniel Gilbert, a psychologist at Harvard. "He has essentially applied the Monty Hall Problem to an experimental procedure in psychology, and the result is both instructive and counter-intuitive."

Dr. Gilbert, however, says that he has yet to be persuaded that this same flaw exists in all experiments using the free-choice paradigm, and he remains confident that the overall theory of cognitive dissonance is solid. That view is shared by Laurie R. Santos, one of the Yale psychologists who did the monkey experiment.

"Keith nicely points out an important problem with the baseline that we've used in our first study of cognitive dissonance, but it doesn't apply to several new methods we've used that reveal the same level of dissonance in both monkeys and children," Dr. Santos says. "I doubt that his critique will be all that influential for the field of cognitive dissonance more broadly."

Dr. Chen remains convinced it's a broad problem. He acknowledges that other forms of cognitive-dissonance effects have been demonstrated in different kinds of experiments, but he says the hundreds of choice-rationalization experiments since 1956 are flawed.

Even when the experimenters use more elaborate methods of measuring preferences ?- like asking a subject to rate items on a scale before choosing between two similarly-ranked items ?- Dr. Chen says the results are still suspect because researchers haven't recognized that the choice during the experiment changes the odds. (For more of Dr. Chen's explanation, see TierneyLab.)

"I don't know that there's clean evidence that merely being asked to choose between two objects will make you devalue what you didn't choose," Dr. Chen says. "I wouldn't be completely surprised if this effect exists, but I've never seen it measured correctly. The whole literature suffers from this basic problem of acting as if Monty's choice means nothing."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/08/science/08tier.html
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 10,309 • Replies: 121
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 03:06 am
10 tries.

8 cars 2 goats

one stay. got a goat.

Switched the next seven tries, got one goat, six cars.

Joe(where do I get tickets to the show?)Nation
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 06:44 am
Laughing

So gut level, Joe, do you think the on line game was rigged to demonstrate "proof" for the theory of probability here? Or is the theory of probability the real deal?
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 07:07 am
What do you mean rigged?

If the initial door chosen had the goat every time, how could it not be the proper choice to switch?

out of 10 tries of not switching, I got 1 car, 9 goats.

out of 10 tries of switching, 6 cars, 4 goats.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 07:10 am
What made this click for me is that Monty Hall always opens a losing door. If he opened a door randomly, it wouldn't make sense. But it's not completely random -- he always opens a losing door, never a winning door.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 07:20 am
Chai wrote:
What do you mean rigged?

If the initial door chosen had the goat every time, how could it not be the proper choice to switch?

out of 10 tries of not switching, I got 1 car, 9 goats.

out of 10 tries of switching, 6 cars, 4 goats.


By 'rigged', I mean do they have the game rigged to favor those switching rather than offering a truly random choice? And it would be rigged to support their conclusion that the law of probability says that switching will produce more wins than staying with your initial choice.

To me it seems that once the door that is opened--Soz is correct, that this will always be a losing door--you are down to two choices. One will have a car and one will have a goat. Why wouldn't the probability then be 50-50 between a win and a loss?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 07:40 am
It would be. Evens I mean.

But if it's rigged you get an argument going with all the elite and that results in PUBLICITY and that results in increased viewing figures and that results in bigger fees for screening the ads.

The opened door is an irrelevance. Once it's opened it's out of the game.

It is included to make the show last longer. Tossing up would cause a 20 second show. Useless eh?

It's a joke about how thick Americans are.

It's easy. Follow the money never mind your own inflated ego.

The monkeys are a snowstorm.
0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 08:02 am
Of course the game is rigged--Monty knows which door contains the car.

Look the player initially has a one out of three chance of choosing the car, and a two out of three chance of choosing the goat---Monty then shows one of the goats and the odds change (See conditional probability AKA Bayes Theorem)). The one out of three, suddenly change---now the unknown doors are a 50:50 chance, and the odds were that the players initial guess was the goat.

Try this

Initial chance--player picked car(1/3)--Monty shows goat (1/1)--player Switches-loses (1/3)*(1/1)=1/3
Initial Chance---player picked goat(2/3)---Monty shows goat (1/1)--player switches--wins (2/3)*(1/1)=2/3

Rap
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 08:47 am
Well Spendi agrees and RipRap puts out the math theorum that, while I gut level believe is probably spot on accurate, makes me blink and wish I could understand. I still cannot understand why switching from your initial choice is likely to produce a better result than staying with it once the equation is reduced to two choices.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 09:59 am
rap is showing the odds in two different situations.

Once the goat is revealed it's history and that door might as well be at the North Pole.

Car or goat. 2 doors. Now. Nothing to go on except a wink from the continuity girl. Ads. Contestant ponders. Ads. Contestant decides.Ads. Car revealed. Latest model with all the extras. Tastefully lit. Ready to drive away.

Who chooses which car?

Love it. Saps wanted.
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 10:18 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Well Spendi agrees and RipRap puts out the math theorum that, while I gut level believe is probably spot on accurate, makes me blink and wish I could understand. I still cannot understand why switching from your initial choice is likely to produce a better result than staying with it once the equation is reduced to two choices.


Well, keeping blinking, because the odds are 2 out of 3, not 1 out of 2.

there are 3 doors, period, that is always the denominator. It doesn't change to 2 just because monty picked a door.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 11:03 am
They said it did.

If the contestant can switch it means that his first choice is of no consequence. It is there to spin the time out.

Once the goat as been shown there are 2 choices. And the contestant has not yet chosen. 50-50. If a switcher beats the odds all the time somebody is winking.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 04:17 pm
spendius wrote:
They said it did.

If the contestant can switch it means that his first choice is of no consequence. It is there to spin the time out.

Once the goat as been shown there are 2 choices. And the contestant has not yet chosen. 50-50. If a switcher beats the odds all the time somebody is winking.

You're wrong.

Pick a door: You have 1/3 chance of being right.

Eliminate a door: No effect on your initial choice; still 1/3 chance of being right.

Change doors: 2/3 chance of being right.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 06:08 pm
They said you could switch after the goat appeared hopefully after having had a ****.

If I have that wrong I apologise and, of course, you are right DD. But if you can switch you haven't yet made a choice.

It costs a lot of money to advertise a car so the guy whose job it is to advertise cars has found some lesser advertisers willing to reduce his costs so you end up watching a dragged out advert for a car whilst complaining about how many adverts you have to put up with to see the main one.

The mathematics is to help you think you are watching a programme. It's not all that much different from Find the Lady on the racecourse car park.

It also advertises cars in general and thus foreshadows the destruction of the planet. According to Mr Gore I mean.

I have no view on that.
0 Replies
 
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 06:18 pm
spendius wrote:


I have no view on that.


Thank God for small favors... :wink:

RH
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 06:36 pm
Makes sense to me, but I had to think about it a bit. No matter which door he opens, the odds of your first pick being right are 1 in 3. You have a 2 in 3 chance of picking wrong, so when he opens the door to reveal the goat, there is a 2 in 3 chance that the other door is the right one.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 06:49 pm
But if the car is there the show's over. That's a million to one. At least.

Cut!
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 07:22 pm
DrewDad wrote:
spendius wrote:
They said it did.

If the contestant can switch it means that his first choice is of no consequence. It is there to spin the time out.

Once the goat as been shown there are 2 choices. And the contestant has not yet chosen. 50-50. If a switcher beats the odds all the time somebody is winking.

You're wrong.

Pick a door: You have 1/3 chance of being right.

Eliminate a door: No effect on your initial choice; still 1/3 chance of being right.

Change doors: 2/3 chance of being right.


DD has it right.

Joe(the rest is blather)Nation
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 07:37 pm
spendius wrote:
But if the car is there the show's over. That's a million to one. At least.

Cut!


WTF are you talking about?

cars and other grand prizes where given away on that game show and every other game show all the time. That's why they do it at the end of each show you dip ****.

New day, new car. The more winners, the more viewers, the more sponsors, the more revenue.

Have you never watched a freaking game show before?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 07:44 pm
Still doesn't make sense to me. Seems like once one choice is eliminated you are left with a choice of two doors. Behind one door is a car and behind the other is a goat. Whether you change your initial choice or decide to change your initial choice, how at that point are your odds any other than 50-50 of making the right choice?

(And surely even A2Kers don't have to fight over two fictitious goats and a fictitious car. Smile)

By the way, when I stayed at the website through a series of picks, changing doors did net me the car more often.

When I exited and re-entered the website between each pick, the results were more even.

Coincidence? Fluke? Or by design?

When I get time I'll experiment some more with it.
0 Replies
 
 

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