OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Mar, 2010 10:38 pm
@Ticomaya,
Ticomaya wrote:

patiodog wrote:
Upon whose authority do these determinations ultimately rest?

The judge hearing the case.

Psssst... Aren't facts still decided upon by jurors in this country?
patiodog
 
  4  
Reply Mon 1 Mar, 2010 10:57 pm
@Ticomaya,
tico wrote:
patmutt wrote:
Some questions for you, as the originator of the thread:

1) What do you think of the suggestion that your experience of the pit bull population may not apply universally, just as mine may not apply universally?


Theoretically possible, but not likely.


I ask the question for this reason:

When I was volunteering at the humane society in King County (Seattle and surroundings), I had the same impression of pit bulls that you have now. The geographic area from which this shelter was tasked with taking stray and seized animals was particularly poor and infested with drug dealers et al. The pit bulls who came from there were a pretty homogenous bunch -- large (males usually around 80#), tan, and very territorial and aggressive when threatened. Almost all had scars and cropped ears, and I had no compunction about assisting in their euthanasias.

My experience with the dogs here in Wisconsin has been very, very different. I see a vast array of sizes, builds, and coat and eye colors. I also see a vast array of personalities, from the very meek to the very frightening. The population here clearly of a much broader genetic stock than the brutes I was seeing in Seattle. Most of them are very gregarious dogs. A handful are consistently aggressive. A much smaller handful are unpredictably so.

Now, because the pit population I was acquainted with in Seattle was so preponderously of one type and because the population I've known is Wisconsin has been so heterogenous, I take the latter as being more representative of whats really going on with the breed from a biological -- though perhaps not from a demographic -- perspective.

Following paragraph is basically repetition, and can be ignored.
That said, I don't see any solution in criminalizing the type of dog. The descendants of wolves have been working in many ways for people for thousands of years, and as long as someone wants a dog to fight in a ring, or attack anybody who tries to get into their home, or just generally act like a brutish shithead to make up for their owner's insecurity, they're going to breed and train them to do it.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:00 am
@Ticomaya,
Here how silly some of the Pit Bull haters are being here!!!!!!!!!

Average total deaths by dogs attacks yearly in the US=12

Average lighting deaths yearly in US=58

Average Tornadoes deaths yearly in US=70

Average homicides of children under 5 year of age mainly by parents=500

aidan
 
  0  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 02:18 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Breeds and a dog being aggressive or not is not one and the same thing something you seem not to be able to understand.

I can understand almost anything that is explained by evidence. I'm a good learner - except when it comes to physics...but anyway, I understand perfectly what my vet told me. And my vet told me that aggressiveness IS associated with certain breeds.
I don't think he'd have any reason to lie to me so I believe him.

Quote:
Ok Aidan you live your life in unreasonable fear of anything you care to be in fear of.
No thank you.

Quote:
It will be sad for any children you are raising or had raised but that is life.
Are you kidding me? My daughter is seventeen and she's going to Glastonbury this year....you think she's sad? My son has been taking trips canoeing and backpacking around Europe with his friends- Amsterdam, Barcelona, Paris since he was seventeen - you think he's sad? How many parents do you know who trust their kids and encourage them to live life to its fullest enough to let them do stuff like that?

But there's a big difference. Having a dangerous dog in your house with your kids is like knowing that you're living in a house that needs to be rewired. It might not cause your house to burn down, but it might. Why not just get the house rewired? Or why not just buy a dog that's not KNOWN to be an aggressive breed?

Quote:
You should be sure the children are surrounded at all times by a grounded Faraday cage.

No - they wouldn't have that - they've been allowed too much freedom in their lives.

Quote:
For myself of all the things that could harm my granddkids dogs of any breed especially families dogs is very far down the list
.
Right because you apparently don't have an aggressive dog in your house. But if you did, you'd be putting them in harm's way and you'd have to worry a whole lot more about it.
aidan
 
  0  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 02:20 am
@Rockhead,
Quote:
just saying you are using language in a way that is dishonestly inflammatory.

it weakens your argument.


In my mind, it strengthens the argument. If a dog could kill an adult - and a 38 year old adult in the prime of her life and height of her strength - think about what that dog could do to a small child or a weakened elderly person.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 06:11 am
@aidan,
Quote:
Right because you apparently don't have an aggressive dog in your house. But if you did, you'd be putting them in harm's way and you'd have to worry a whole lot more about it.


I would not have an "aggressive" dog in the house but I would have a pit bull or any other breed in my house they are not one and the same no matter what your vet had said to you or not said to you.

I had no plans to set up a program to turn my families dogs into fighting dogs by the means of mistreatment.

Once more my friend good old Vick and his friends needed to kill any numbers of Pit Bulls because they could not make them aggressive even with the very worst possible treatments design to do so.

Ten of thousands of years the human race had breed such traits out of the wolves that we now call dogs and once more no back yard breeds can place it back into them in the time frame we are talking about.

The best they can do is through mistreatments cause a small percent of the dogs to be willing to fight to the death.

All breeds of all dogs in the US with a population of 40 millions or so and the total death toll is roughly 12 humans a year. Would you care to hear that once more 12 total deaths with god know how many Pit bulls and Chows and Dobermans and on an on living in our homes and around our children. Hell a large percent of those children are likely even sharing a bed with these "killers".

0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 06:33 am
@aidan,
Quote:
In my mind, it strengthens the argument. If a dog could kill an adult - and a 38 year old adult in the prime of her life and height of her strength - think about what that dog could do to a small child or a weakened elderly person.


Repeat very very slowly forty millions dogs hundreds of thousands of the evil Pit Bulls around young children and old people and the total deaths including from dogs train to be attack dogs in the US stand at around 12 a year on average.

Repeat one more time total numbers of deaths in any year around 12 total from all dogs in the US.

Once more total deaths around 12 yearly.

Now 500 hundreds deaths on average every year from parents killing their children younger then 5 years old.

You and your husband are by the odds between 50 to a hundred times more of a danger to young children then all the dogs in the country.

0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 07:22 am
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
patiodog wrote:
Upon whose authority do these determinations ultimately rest?

The judge hearing the case.

Psssst... Aren't facts still decided upon by jurors in this country?

Often, but more often the trier of fact is a judge. Chances of a bench trial are higher in municipal or administrative proceedings, which is likely what we're talking about. But, yes, it might be a jury, so "trier of fact" would have been a better response.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 07:50 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
Here how silly some of the Pit Bull haters are being here!!!!!!!!!

Average total deaths by dogs attacks yearly in the US=12

Average lighting deaths yearly in US=58

Average Tornadoes deaths yearly in US=70

Average homicides of children under 5 year of age mainly by parents=500

Did you read the story I posted that you were replying to? The young man had his face slashed so badly by his pet pit bull that he asked police officers to shoot him. He will need many plastic surgeries in the months and years to come as he recovers. He will not die, and the vast majority of pit bull victims don't. The vast majority have their lives shattered by vicious and unprovoked attacks by pit bulls.

And in the case I posted, the owner/victim evidently treated his dogs well. No evidence that he was abusing them, or training them to be aggressive. The evidence is he suffered an unprovoked attack from his own unpredictably violent pit bull.

BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 09:53 am
@Ticomaya,
Quote:
And in the case I posted, the owner/victim evidently treated his dogs well. No evidence that he was abusing them, or training them to be aggressive. The evidence is he suffered an unprovoked attack from his own unpredictably violent pit bull.


We live in a country of 300 millions people with 40 millions dogs and many hundreds of thousands of Pit bull plus 100s of thousands of other kinds of large dogs living in our homes.

I am damn sure you can find cases of a few Pit Bulls attacks that had sadly resulted in serous harm however that does not mean as a class Pit Bulls are in any way or in any manner more dangerous then other breeds of large dogs or that dogs as a whole are a serous risk.

I am sure if you went looking you could find similar stories concerning other dogs breeds and so what you are still far more likely to win a state lottery or be attack by a bear when you are out hiking for that matter then to be attack by a Pit Bull or any other dogs and suffer serious harm.

In the overall universe of risks of serous harm we all face daily a family dog is not on the radar screen no matter what his breed happen to be.

Do they teach any form of logic in law school or only how to appeal to the emotions of a jury?
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 10:22 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
I am damn sure you can find cases of a few Pit Bulls attacks that had sadly resulted in serous harm ...

Unfortunately, quite a few.

Quote:
... however that does not mean as a class Pit Bulls are in any way or in any manner more dangerous then other breeds of large dogs ...

Which breed is more dangerous in your view?

Quote:
In the overall universe of risks of serous harm we all face daily a family dog is not on the radar screen no matter what his breed happen to be.

And shark attacks are rare too. Does this mean we should allow our children to swim in shark-infested waters?

Quote:
Do they teach any form of logic in law school or only how to appeal to the emotions of a jury?

Why don't you go to law school and find out?
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 11:52 am
There is definately something with what is typical of a breed of dog. This is important whenever looking to get a pet. Which is why we got my particular dog so for kicks I did a search on my dog's breed along with attack and bite just to see the results - first one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbsckEzbqgE

So I guess we are safe on the attacking issue at least for our little pet.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 12:21 pm
@Ticomaya,
Here are some hearts breaking stories of bears attacks and mean that we can not have such dangerous animals in roaming free and should go out and kill them all by your logic or lack of same.

Maybe we could even used Pit Bulls to help hunt them down?

Robert Wagner, 48, male September 2008 Brown Sundre area, Alberta. Wagner, 48, of Didsbury, didn't return from a hunting trip to the Sundre area. The medical examiner's office says (Mr Wagner) found near Sundre was mauled to death by a bear.[4]

Cecile Lavoie, 70, female May 30, 2008 Black Near La Sarre, Quebec. Lavoie went on a solo fishing trip. After she didn't return to her cabin, her husband went looking for her. He found a bear dragging her body into the woods.[5]

Don Peters, 51, male November 25, 2007 Brown Mountain Aire Lodge west of Sundre, about 90 km northwest of Calgary. Peters, 51, did not return from a hunting trip in Western Alberta. He was killed by a grizzly near his vehicle after going hunting alone. His body was found three days later. His rifle was found nearby. It had been fired but there was nothing to indicate the bear had been hit. Officials were trying to trap the bear but would not say whether it would be killed if captured. Upon capture, the bear may be shot, moved to another area or let go, depending on an evaluation of the bear, said Alberta resources spokesman Dave Ealey. [7]

Robin Kochorek, 31, female July 20, 2007 Black The 31-year-old woman was reported missing on July 20 after being separated from friends while mountain biking at Panorama Mountain Resort, British Columbia. She was presumably killed by a black bear who was right where the body was recovered at 8 a.m. July 21. Indications were that the bear had preyed upon this person or obviously was trying to claim ownership. The bear was shot on site by RCMP.[8]

Samuel Evan Ives, 11, male June 17, 2007 Black Taken from a tent in American Fork Canyon in the Uinta National Forest in Utah County, Utah where he was sleeping with his stepfather, mother and 6-year-old brother. The bear was later killed by state Wildlife officials.[9]

agé, 28, male April 28, 2006 Brown Fatally mauled while staking mineral claims near Ross River, Yukon, Canada. He unknowingly walked right past a bear den containing a sow and 2 cubs.[10]
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 12:56 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
Here are some hearts breaking stories of bears attacks and mean that we can not have such dangerous animals in roaming free and should go out and kill them all by your logic or lack of same.

Are you even reading what I've said in this thread? Show me where I've said I think we should euthanize all pit bulls. I'm not -- I'm encouraging strict regulation of them.

But yes, there are good reasons we restrict bears from roaming around our cities. Bears are inherently dangerous animals, and should be treated as such, even if they are trained and work in the circus.

It is my belief that pit bulls are also inherently dangerous animals. Less dangerous than bears, I suppose, at least in terms of how much damage each can cause. However, we don't encourage bears as pets ... in that sense pits are more dangerous because we allow them around our children and elderly.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:12 pm
@Ticomaya,
Quote:
It is my belief that pit bulls are also inherently dangerous animals. Less dangerous than bears, I suppose, at least in terms of how much damage each can cause.


A google news search can come up with stories concerning every large breed of dogs attacking and harming someone and your believes had no firm foundation of facts behind them.

Here we had the Rotweiler, Doberman, chow and German Shepherd attacks stories so posting a sad story about a Pit Bull attack prove zero about the breed.

With 40 millions dogs living with us you are going to have a few dogs attacks by all breeds of dogs.

See below…………



Clatsop County authorities are still trying to piece together what happened Sunday when a dog attack at a rural home near Astoria ended in the death of a 4-year-old girl.

Jesse Browning called 9-1-1 for help about 1 p.m. to report that his stepdaughter, Ashlynn Anderson, had been seriously injured, apparently by one of the family's two Rottweilers.

Sheriff Tom Bergin said no one is sure yet exactly what happened, only that the girl's mother, D'Ette Browning, was the first to realize something was wrong outside the family home in the 4200 block of Hillcrest Loop Road in the community of Svensen, east of Astoria.

"This mom just happened to look out and saw the dog and the child laying there," Bergin said. "Apparently, the dog just snapped."

A Life Flight helicopter flew the child to Oregon Health & Science University in Portland, but she was pronounced dead on arrival.




"Everyone was there in minutes," Bergin said. "But she was pretty severely mauled. By the time they got her to OHSU, she had lost too much blood."

The Browning family is well known in the Astoria area. Jesse Browning and his father, Jay Browning, star on The History Channel's "Ax Men." Jay Browning is the owner of Browning Logging. The show, which airs Sundays, portrays the lives of loggers across the United States.

There were two Rottweilers at the family's home. Bergin wasn't sure of the ages or gender. But four months to the day, he said, a deputy had responded to the home to remove a third Rottweiler because it had gotten aggressive.

That dog was euthanized. The two at the home Sunday were removed and are in quarantine at the county animal shelter. They will either be adopted out or euthanized.

Asked about the dangers of owning large dogs, Bergin said that those who own such canines would be wise to be "very vigilant."

"I would just say if you have an aggressive breed dog -- Rottweilers, pit bulls, even some cattle dogs -- you should be very vigilant when they are around children," he said. "There are a lot of good ones within that breed but you just have to be cautious."

A check of several Web sites indicates that Rottweilers are often ranked just after pit bulls as among the most dangerous breeds of dogs. Others on various lists include German shepherds, huskies, malamutes and Dobermans.

Anne Samuelson, former Clatsop County commissioner, knows the Browning family. She said both D'Ette and Jesse Browning were "very, very loving parents.

"The whole thing was so horrific. You could say a lot of Clatsop County is a family friend of the Browning family. I can't think of very many people who wouldn't be friends of the Browning family, and our heart breaks for them."

Bergin said the two dogs will be euthanized if the Brownings request it. If the dogs are put up for adoption instead, they would first be rated to determine their level of aggression.

The autopsy on Ashlynn will not be ready for a few days.

"This is just a sad set of circumstances and a very unfortunate death," Bergin said.

 Lori Tobias
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHILD, 4, RECOVERING FROM DOG ATTACK
A 4-year-old Chester boy is expected to go home today, after he received more than 100 stitches following a dog bite. A Doberman pinscher, owned by a Chester County sheriff's deputy, attacked Ray Dotson while he and two other younger children were playing in a yard on a dairy farm, said Larry Davis of Chester. The dog bit Ray on the right side of the head about 5 p.m. Thursday, said Davis, who was at the farm when the attack occurred. Davis ran the dog off and rescued...
>> Purchase complete article, of 203 words
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DOG ATTACKS TODDLER, 2 GIRL SUFFERS SEVERAL BITES ON HER FACE FROM FAMILY PET AS SHE PLAYS ON LIVING ROOM FLOOR
Published on April 23, 2001. Article 1 of 1 found.
SOURCE: Brian D. Crecente
News Staff Writer
A chow attacked a toddler Sunday morning, biting her repeatedly on the face as she played on a living room floor.


Police are investigating the incident as a possible child abuse case, said Westminster police spokesman Patrick Welsh.

The 2 1/2-year-old girl was in fair condition late Sunday at Children's Hospital.

Police say the chow is owned by John Ozuna, 35, who lives at 3498 W. 82nd Ave., with the girl's mother, Christine Merritt, 32, and... 280 words, Rocky Mountain News (CO)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SPRING LAKE -- A German Shepherd mix attacked a 3-year-old child who had wandered from his playmates Tuesday.




The dog bit the child on the front of the neck and may have torn his jugular vein, the family told rescue workers.


The attack happened at the Shady Grove Mobile Home Park on Shady Grove Road off N.C. 210 in Harnett County, sheriff's Detective Bernice Smith said. The child, the son of Michael Patrick Laska, was taken by ambulance to

Complete Article, 167 words ($2.95)





0 Replies
 
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 10:35 pm
@Ticomaya,
Also a strong point to consider is what's occured over the last 2 decades of breeders and/or trainers and what they might be doing to CHANGE the breed. Certain unethical breeders and similarly unscrupulous trainers can negatively affect the breed. After all, they originally were selected to put in an area to bait bulls. Wonder if that was a random thought? Not likely!

In essence, when the two of these evil forces get together, you could get a 'perfect storm' of a dangerous scenario. The trifecta is completed when, let's say, an urban type buys the badly bred and trained dog for display as a status symbol or for protection of his/her meth lab or drug stache. Or perhaps worse , is someone that knows nothing about how to take care of ANY dog or still worse -- acts meanly or neglects them. what are the odds they treat these dogs humanely, feed them regularly or even bring them to a vet?

That being said, one of the characters traits bred into the dog is that it's one of the most perisistent dog breeds known to man. Once they've set their mind on something or someone, they tend to not let go.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 05:00 am
@Ragman,
Ragman the results of mistreatments seem on it face to be breed independent and how dangerous the outcome will be depend on the size of the dog not it breed.
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 06:47 am
@patiodog,
Quote:
He will not die, and the vast majority of pit bull victims don't. The vast majority have their lives shattered by vicious and unprovoked attacks by pit bulls.


The vast majority have their lives shattered. What utter bullshit. The vast majority of victims of any dog bite get over it, and you ******* well know it.

Quote:
I ask the question for this reason:

When I was volunteering at the humane society in King County (Seattle and surroundings), I had the same impression of pit bulls that you have now. The geographic area from which this shelter was tasked with taking stray and seized animals was particularly poor and infested with drug dealers et al. The pit bulls who came from there were a pretty homogenous bunch -- large (males usually around 80#), tan, and very territorial and aggressive when threatened. Almost all had scars and cropped ears, and I had no compunction about assisting in their euthanasias.

My experience with the dogs here in Wisconsin has been very, very different. I see a vast array of sizes, builds, and coat and eye colors. I also see a vast array of personalities, from the very meek to the very frightening. The population here clearly of a much broader genetic stock than the brutes I was seeing in Seattle. Most of them are very gregarious dogs. A handful are consistently aggressive. A much smaller handful are unpredictably so.

Now, because the pit population I was acquainted with in Seattle was so preponderously of one type and because the population I've known is Wisconsin has been so heterogenous, I take the latter as being more representative of whats really going on with the breed from a biological -- though perhaps not from a demographic -- perspective.


You've gone on with the carping, but haven't told you what I though of this. Might be interesting to actually have, like, a dialogue rather than dueling screeds.
Ticomaya
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 02:04 pm
@patiodog,
patiodog wrote:
Quote:
He will not die, and the vast majority of pit bull victims don't. The vast majority have their lives shattered by vicious and unprovoked attacks by pit bulls.

The vast majority have their lives shattered. What utter bullshit. The vast majority of victims of any dog bite get over it, and you ******* well know it.

Let me tell you what you better ******* well know. You better ******* well know that a certain 10 year old boy in Wichita, Kansas -- who was committing the unpardonable sin of daring to ride his bike in front of his house when he was suddenly attacked by a pit bull who proceeded to drag him off his bike and rip his face off from his ear to his chin -- had his life shattered. You didn't see the pictures of this little boy's face, did you? And you didn't talk to his parents as they told you about all of the plastic surgeries he had in order to repair the physical damages, and the ongoing counseling to try and repair the psychological damage caused by that attack? Well I did.

And I assure you that every single victim in the stories I've posted in this thread -- those that lived -- had their lives shattered by a pit bull attack. So spare me your rationalizing bullshit. I'm not interested in having a dialogue with you.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 03:43 pm
@Ticomaya,
There are many hundreds of thousands of Pit bulls in the US my silly friend and no single or a few attacks said anything about the breed as a whole.

As I had pointed out using google news you can find stories about serious attacks by every known breed of dogs and that is not surprising or shocking given the 40 millions dogs in the US of all breeds.

The fact stand that given the numbers of dogs living with us the numbers of bad outcomes as a result is very very small and that include Pitt Bulls.
 

Related Topics

Pit Bull Terrier - Discussion by LAW0044
Denver Bans Pit Bulls - Discussion by Joahaeyo
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Pit Bulls
  3. » Page 26
Copyright © 2019 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 10/17/2019 at 09:10:23