Pit Bulls

@aidan,

Quote:

got my preconception from a vet who said to me, 'Since you have small children, and you like medium to large dogs, you should look at breeds like golden retrievers, labs, or cocker spaniels and avoid breeds like chows....and I can't remember the others he said.. because I knew I liked retrievers and labs so I listened more to what he said to get instead of what he said not to get.

Chow chows are fear by more vets then any other breed including pit bulls it would seem and it used to annoy me greatly that my wife would take her chow chow to a vet that greatly fear her and have his whole staff fearing her.

They would insist that the poor animal had a muzzle on just to start with.

This is a dog that one minute after I met her was sitting on my lap loving me up and who I had never seen any indication of a bad temper over the years of knowing her.

I remember to this day having this large dog on my lap and picking up a book on the coffee table concerning chow chow with one hand and petting the big bad chow chow with the other.

Flipping the pages I found myself reading how they was not friendly to strangers and they had a black tongue etc.

Well I said to her are your a real chow chow or not? With that I open her mouth up only to find that she did have a black tongue even if she was a very friendly dog.

I do not know about you but I been around dogs all my 61 years of life and found claims of bad temper base of breeds complete nonsense.

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@Ragman,

Quote:

Pitbull and the mixes are over-represented in dangerous mauling of elderly and small children.

And this is true because of the breed or the type of owners the breed seem to draw?

As I said when I was a child no one hear that Pit Bull was of concern it was the big bad doberman who was the killer of the day of the elderly and small children.

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@BillRM,

A failure of logic there. The fact that you didn't hear of it ...does that means that it didn't happen? Neither you nor I read police blotters created at that time. Newspaper and media reportage would be the more likely source for kowing about what attacked whom.

Bowing out...finally.

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@roger,

Quote:

Rifles are not possessed of self-volition

.

But I am and the humans who used them or fighting pit bulls are and that is the point my friend if you wish to train a dog to be mean you have a good chance of doing so but that have nothing to do with the breed of dog.

In fact our dog fighting football friend Vick put down any numbers of pit bulls because even with the "best" training he and his friends could not get a large percent of them to act as you seem to think all pit bulls will act.

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@Ragman,

Quote:

DISPROPORTIONATELY on police or accident reports and NOT newspaper reports.

And if you have a breed of dogs who are own in great number by assholes who wish for a mean dog you will get such attacks in disproportion numbers.

Does not however said one damn thing about the breed.

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@patiodog,

patiodog wrote:

The gist of my counter-argument to that goes like this: most of the time, when you see a dog chained in a yard, infested with parasites and malnourished, bearing the scars of abuse at human hands, it's usually a pit bull. I see the dogs, I hear it from our animal control officers, I meet the owners when they come to redeem their neglected animals and refuse the offer of free spay/neuter surgery for their animals -- it's a people problem, and getting rid of a particular breed is not going to fix it.

Respectfully disagree, and I offer anecdotal evidence to rebut your own. I too, used to work with pit bulls and animal control officers weekly if not daily (no longer). And while there are way too many cases involving animal neglect, there are also way too many bites that involve pits that are NOT neglected. No, can't blame this one on the owners. Some owners certainly can share in the blame, but the overwhelming evidence points to a breed-specific problem, not an owner specific problem.

And I'm quite honestly flabbergasted to hear you work with these animals as often as you do, yet don't consider them to be inherently any more dangerous than any other medium to large dog.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Sorry you are in the dark but I do not see why you should be as I was replying to a posting that compare them to the unpredictable behavior of tigers or lions.
...

The above posting and my other posting you claimed to be in the dark about seem clear very very clear to me.

He's "in the dark" because your sentence he quoted:

BillRM wrote:

No short time frame of half ass back yards breeding programs to produce fighting dogs is going to had change them into anything other then the dogs that it took ten of thousands of years to turn them into from wolves.

... doesn't make much sense.

1 Reply

@Ragman,

Lord ok Pit bulls are evil and always had been evil and once upon the time dobermans were evil however by waving a magic wand they are no longer the big bad dog on the block it is now Pit Bulls!!!!!

Seem odd that my father as a child had a pit bull and no one was a bit concern in the 30s about it being a possible child killer.

To his dying day my father eyes would light up when he talk about this dog from his childhood.

It would seem that those who know the dogs up close and very personal as family pets do not share your opinion of the breed is it not?

Side note my mother is 88 years old and at times a neighbor will bring his pit bull when he visit her. After seeing this dog behavior toward my mother very annoying little dog and even a kitten of mine playing with his tail I had zero concern about the dog being near my elderly mother.

1 Reply

@Ticomaya,

Hmm sorry that you and he have a reading problem.

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@BillRM,

On the other hand Bill, after I got my dog, my vet told me that there was an incidence in the next town over to mine in Maine where a woman who was living with a guy and was known by the guy's dog who was a chow - was chased into her car by the dog, unfortunately the woman was not able to close the door of the car quickly enough and the dog got into the car with her and attacked her - totally unprovoked. The dog was loved and well-cared for - it just went off on this poor woman for some reason.

Of course all chows won't do that and maybe the dog was sick or something - (they put it down- it severly injured and mauled a grown woman) but again - I just think it's safer to take the stance that where there's smoke there's fire and especially if you're responsible for children- how are you going to feel if you disregard all the stories and 'rumors' and your child ends up paying the price?

That's why - having observed the behavior of my german shepherd around people- I don't ever want to put myself in the position of f being responsible for an unpredictable dog again. I loved her so I kept her and took precautions in terms of avoiding situations I knew might trigger her aggression until she died a natural death- it got to where I wouldn't even take her walking - thankfully we had a large, fenced yard she could run around in to get exercise, but once she died I have to admit I felt relieved to be able to move on to a breed without the associated risks - and my dog today (a golden retriever/shepherd mix) would never hurt a flea. She's never so much as snapped at a person - even little kids who were pulling her tail, etc.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

It would seem that those who know the dogs up close and very personal as family pets do not share your opinion of the breed is it not?

Has anyone surveyed the many owners who have been attacked by their "family pet" pit bull as to whether their opinion of the dog has changed? Not that it matters, of course, because if they were to still think the breed is safe after it bites little Sally or little Billy in the face, then I wouldn't put much stock in their opinion to begin with.

1 Reply

@Ticomaya,

Quote:

Has anyone surveyed the many owners who have been attacked by their "family pet" pit bull as to whether their opinion of the dog has changed? Not that it matters, of course, because if they were to still think the breed is safe after it bites little Sally or little Billy in the face, then I wouldn't put much stock in their opinion to begin with.

Yes you are indeed the type who would place the opinions of those who had no contact with the breed over those who have them in their own families.

After all if someone wave their arms around in a circle and declare themselves an experts on a subject we should all bend low to the ground and honor them over people who live with the animals day in and day out.

The last Pitt Bull in my family was 70 years ago or so however I had have casual contacts with that breed off and on for decades and had watch a big killer of a Pit Bull lay on my mother floor and been annoy by a dog weighting less then his head. Watching also at the time my then 8 months old kitten decided that the Pit Bull tail would make a wonderful cat toy. All this without one bit of a hostile reaction from him.

Yes, I know the proper reaction to seeing a pit bull is fear and not that it a great looking dog.

Sorry you had not convince me that Pit Bulls need to be fear or treated with any less or more respect then any other breed of large dogs but there are plenty of people like you willing to go along unthinkingly with the program.

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Given the fact that in the US there are somewhere in the order of 40 millions or so dogs living with people the number of deaths cause by dog attacks yearly by all breeds is in range of a dozen or so and I find that amazing.

Any woman with children who live in a family with both a Pit Bull and a husband/boyfriend will find that her and her children risk of death or great harm is a few hundreds time greater from the husband/boyfriend then the Pit Bull.

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@aidan,

Quote:

Of course all chows won't do that and maybe the dog was sick or something - (they put it down- it severly injured and mauled a grown woman) but again - I just think it's safer to take the stance that where there's smoke there's fire and especially if you're responsible for children- how are you going to feel if you disregard all the stories and 'rumors' and your child ends up paying the price?

Not all men will attack and harm the woman of the family and the children however the risk is a few hundreds time greater then of the family dog of any breed doing so.

We had no right to endanger the children by allowing the father or even worst a step father/boyfriend from living in the household.

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@aidan,

Second aidan by going down the path that we have no right to place children at any risk no matter how small you get silly results that are far more harmful on the whole then accepting the small risks in the first place.

As I had said my father live into his late 70s and he got both a smile and tears in his eyes when he would talk about Butch his childhood Pit Bull.

He was a wonderful and loving man and father and his love for this dog was a factor in producing the man he became I am sure.

All large dogs can cause harm but it is such a small risk compare to others risks we that we all cheerfully run day in and day out that compare to the benefits of having dogs in our lives the risk in my opinion is well worth it.

1 Reply

@Ticomaya,

Quote:

And I'm quite honestly flabbergasted to hear you work with these animals as often as you do, yet don't consider them to be inherently any more dangerous than any other medium to large dog.

All right, be flabbergasted, but that's where I'm at working with the pits in my community. Maybe it's to do with being in a farming state, where the "breed" has a long history, but that's the way I see it.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

Second aidan by going down the path that we have no right to place children at any risk no matter how small you get silly results that are far more harmful on the whole then accepting the small risks in the first place.

Bill, I'm sorry but you try watching your two year old get bitten by a dog who one minute is fine, has no history of any aggression and the next minute has bitten your child in the face. The dog belonged to a good friend of mine and we were over at her house and I took my daughter to the emergency room to have her face stitched, leaving my six year old son with Betsy, my friend. Well, imagine my surprise when I came back to the house to find the dog still in the house with my son. She didn't even put the dog outside after it had done something like that to another kid! I lost a lot of trust in my friend's common sense and intelligence at that point. She couldn't see past her affection for her dog. We remained friends, but I never went over her house again. And I told her why - after watching her dog do what it did - I was afraid of her other sharpeis - she had three of them.
No, you can't protect kids from everything, but if a dog bites one kid, you maybe should figure you should put it somewhere so it couldn't bite another.

Quote:

As I had said my father live into his late 70s and he got both a smile and tears in his eyes when he would talk about Butch his childhood Pit Bull.

My nephew, who's eighteen, has a pit bull- apparently someone had to take this puppy or it'd have been put down. My sister won't allow the dog to stay at her house, so the dog stays at his girlfriend's house and visits at my sister's house when Drew is right there watching him and playing with him. And the reason she won't let him have the dog at her house all the time and unattended is a) she already has three cats and a dog and b) she's terrified of pit bulls and rottweilers because one time her neighbor was on a treadmill talking to my sister who was sitting in a chair in her den and the neighbors own dog, dragged her off the treadmill and caused her to fall, he didn't bite her - but she was really bruised...and the woman was saying, 'no, no stop and the dog just kept dragging her across the floor...weird- and another time a neighborhood rottweiller chased her son into his house - he didn't bite him but he would have if Drew hadn't made it through the door. Drew apparently forgot or got over his experience with the aggressive dog - but my sister never did.

Quote:

All large dogs can cause harm but it is such a small risk compare to others risks we that we all cheerfully run day in and day out that compare to the benefits of having dogs in our lives the risk in my opinion is well worth it.

I love dogs - the only time I haven't had a dog in my life is when I was in college and I wasn't allowed to have one. But if you're gonna have a dog, you have to make sure you can handle it. I'd be afraid to have an aggressive dog. I had one semi-aggressive dog- she never bit anyone but she acted sometimes like she wanted to and I felt that I always had to vigilant. I could never relax with that dog around people and kids and that was enough to teach me that I never want to be responsible for another aggressive dog.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Quote:

Chow chows are fear by more vets then any other breed including pit bulls it would seem and it used to annoy me greatly that my wife would take her chow chow to a vet that greatly fear her and have his whole staff fearing her.

Naw, I worry more about SharPeis than ChowChows. Still, I won't examine either one without assistance. Doesn't necessarily equate to aggressiveness at home, though.

1 Reply

@aidan,

Quote:

I'd be afraid to have an aggressive dog

.

Breeds and a dog being aggressive or not is not one and the same thing something you seem not to be able to understand.

Ok Aidan you live your life in unreasonable fear of anything you care to be in fear of.

It will be sad for any children you are raising or had raised but that is life.

Please be very careful of thunder bolts out of clear blue skies an event that more then likely had kill more children then Pit Bulls or Chow chow together.

You should be sure the children are surrounded at all times by a grounded Faraday cage.

For myself of all the things that could harm my granddkids dogs of any breed especially families dogs is very far down the list.

1 Reply

@patiodog,

Quote:

Still, I won't examine either one without assistance

The only time a vet got hurt from any pet of mine, it was from a small female cat. He ended up looking like he ran into a barbed wire fence on a motorcycle.

This little hell cat was a stay cat that I took in after Hurricane Andrew and she would not take any **** from anyone but me.

She would chase large tom cats away from food bowls and once when she had join me and my dog on a walk a large German Shepherd came over to greet my dog and she jump him and chase him for over a block hitting him in the rear end all the way. Then she proudly came back and attacks my dog that begins to fight back! I needed to pick up each one in my hands telling them to stop it, as who ever won I would still need to pay the vet bill.

So the little dear was on the table to be look at and I was holding her as she tries to hit at the vet around my hands.

The fool vet told me that my being there was giving her permission to act out and I should leave as they knew what they was doing.

Doc I said she does not need my ok to act this way and I still strongly suggest you take my help, as she for some reason had never been willing to harm me.

However, I said ok and walk out of the room and if it had been a contest, the cat would have won hands/claws down.

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