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Where was God during the Holocaust?

 
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 04:52 pm
President Bush and his wife, Laura, will host a White House dinner in honor of the pontiff Wednesday evening. U.S. Catholic leaders from around the nation will attend. The menu will offer Bavarian-style food in recognition of the pope’s German heritage. It’s even the pope’s 81st birthday. But he won’t be there.

“He’s on a very ambitious official schedule,” Anita McBride, Mrs. Bush’s chief of staff, said Friday. “He’ll be meeting with U.S. bishops that night” at a university in Washington.

Now, it’s not that the Pope is avoiding Bush altogether. The President and First Lady will greet the Pope at Andrews Air Force Base, and there will be a formal welcoming ceremony on the South Lawn of the White House on Wednesday morning.

But the White House also scheduled a dinner in the Pope’s honor for that evening, and he’s apparently decided he has better things to do on Wednesday night.
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 11:00 am
You know, I honestly do see the points of many on this forum when it comes to their questions concerning God. However, trying to understand every single thing about God and trying to define Him in simple human terms is pretty futile in my opinion. But then, I don't need Him defined as some do.

I guess I will never get that question I have about believing truly answered here on earth. What makes some require that proof and what makes others not reuqire any proof at all?
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JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 11:12 am
I like this explanation...



some of us need a crutch more than others.
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 02:00 pm
Death levels .
Injustice prevails.
Ask any buddist or jews, or hindus or multi various sects.

Come out of this nonsense.
Live a life accorinding to your conscience and uphold decency.
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 08:27 pm
A Christian whose name is Hitler had made Holocaust?
Not any athiests nor muslims..
Truth hurts.
Absolute truth hurts more.
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 10:59 pm
Unfortunately both the persons who had made other's life are christians by origin.( Hitler and BUSH)
Fortunately no athiest had killed, maimed, tortured, butchered, raped, , burned for religious cause.
ASK JESUS or his organiszed sales representative..
Jews are coward to expose the hypocracy of Christianity. but vociferous to belittle the minority.
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Apr, 2008 03:42 am
Arella Mae wrote:
You know, I honestly do see the points of many on this forum when it comes to their questions concerning God. However, trying to understand every single thing about God and trying to define Him in simple human terms is pretty futile in my opinion. But then, I don't need Him defined as some do.


Well, what else do you want to do in a Spirituality and Religion forum? Just praising God all the time is a bit boring, don't you think? There's got to be some challenging, some questioning and when you find something that doesn't gel, you then debate whether you should get rid of it.

Quote:
I guess I will never get that question I have about believing truly answered here on earth. What makes some require that proof and what makes others not reuqire any proof at all?


That puzzles me when it concerns believers. Why do believers require proof?

I require proof because I'm sceptical and I don't believe. I'm different in that way. But what about the believers? Are they sceptical too?
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saab
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Apr, 2008 04:44 am
Ramafuchs wrote:
Unfortunately both the persons who had made other's life are christians by origin.( Hitler and BUSH)
Fortunately no athiest had killed, maimed, tortured, butchered, raped, , burned for religious cause.
ASK JESUS or his organiszed sales representative..
Jews are coward to expose the hypocracy of Christianity. but vociferous to belittle the minority.


What about Stalin just to mention one person?

Continuous persecution in the 1930s resulted in its near-extinction: by 1939, active parishes numbered in the low hundreds (down from 54,000 in 1917), many churches had been leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were persecuted and killed. Over 100,000 were shot during the purges of 1937-1938.
Just days before Stalin's death, certain religious sects were outlawed and persecuted.

Many religions popular in the ethnic regions of the Soviet Union including the Roman Catholic Church, Uniats, Baptists, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. underwent ordeals similar to the Orthodox churches in other parts: thousands of monks were persecuted, and hundreds of churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, sacred monuments, monasteries and other religious buildings were razed.
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Apr, 2008 06:30 am
saab wrote:
What about Stalin just to mention one person?

Continuous persecution in the 1930s resulted in its near-extinction: by 1939, active parishes numbered in the low hundreds (down from 54,000 in 1917), many churches had been leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were persecuted and killed. Over 100,000 were shot during the purges of 1937-1938.
Just days before Stalin's death, certain religious sects were outlawed and persecuted.

Many religions popular in the ethnic regions of the Soviet Union including the Roman Catholic Church, Uniats, Baptists, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. underwent ordeals similar to the Orthodox churches in other parts: thousands of monks were persecuted, and hundreds of churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, sacred monuments, monasteries and other religious buildings were razed.


Stalin's persecution of religious people had less to do with atheism and more about political control. Hitler, however, persecuted people because he believed it was his duty to the Lord God.

That is not to say that atheists haven't done bad things in the past, like Pol Pot and Mao, but if you look carefully, you'll find they all did it in the name of Communism.

Atheism, being an individualistic movement with very little social or doctrinal cohesion cannot hope to achieve the same degree of atrocities as religions or political ideologies do. Sure, you'll get the lone nut job who grabs a gun and goes on a killing spree, but that's that. They're lone nut jobs. No one will be able to name a good example of an atheist who kills in the name of atheism, because they tend to be nobodies.

With those of religious or political conviction, they can gather followers that share common beliefs.
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saab
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Apr, 2008 07:23 am
Correctly what was done was in the name of communism. A good cummunist ought to be an atheist. So there politics and anti religion is mixed.

Hitler did not kill in the name of Lord God. Also Hitler was an atheist.
There has been significant literature on the potential religious aspects of Nazism. Sometimes it is even asked whether Hitler and the Nazi leadership were about to replace Christianity in Germany with a new religion in which Hitler was to be considered as the messiah.
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Apr, 2008 07:36 am
saab wrote:
Correctly what was done was in the name of communism. A good cummunist ought to be an atheist. So there politics and anti religion is mixed.


But it isn't in the name of atheism. Most people weren't killed because they believed in God, but because they followed an alternative social control system. Religion was regarded as nothing more than just another rival political party.

Quote:
Hitler did not kill in the name of Lord God.


Maybe not, but:

Quote:
Also Hitler was an atheist.


The above quote is definitely false.

You can argue he is a Christian. He said so several times, in Mein Kampf and in political speeches. Examples include:

Adolf Hitler wrote:
I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

Source: Mein Kampf


Adolf Hitler wrote:
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922


However, you can also argue that he was a non-Christian. He said several derogatory things about Christianity too, like:

Adolf Hitler wrote:
The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity


and

Adolf Hitler wrote:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity


However, if you look carefully, you will see he is only critical of Christianity. In fact, he had this to say about other religions:

Adolf Hitler wrote:
You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?


So in conclusion, you can say that Hitler was Christian. You can say he was not a Christian, but you cannot say he was an atheist. He was only derogatory about Judaism and, if you wish to believe the latter quotes, Christianity.

An atheist rejects all religions, not those that would be useful to him or her.

Ultimately, the only thing we can say about Hitler was he used to be Christian, but he may have rejected Christianity in the end. But there is no evidence to suggest he was atheist.
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saab
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Apr, 2008 08:01 am
Ultimately, the only thing we can say about Hitler was he used to be Christian, but he may have rejected Christianity in the end. But there is no evidence to suggest he was atheist

Agree......He started to reject religion after his experiences during WWI.
He should have rejected wars instead of religion

I found Rama´s statement that Christians are bad and atheists haven´t done anything like rape, war and all that kind of things very one sided.
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Apr, 2008 07:07 pm
saab
"Also Hitler was an atheist"
I live in Germany And I know Hitler belongs to a family which had takem Catholic Dreams as their regligion.
Sing not a new song which is wrong.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 01:07 am
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
neologist wrote:
What most people fail to realize is that current affairs of the world are under control of God's adversary, the one who was able to offer Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in Matthew chapter 4.

That is why Jesus was inclined to say ". . . the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me." (John 14:30)

Seems hopeless, doesn't it?

But it is not.


But this would then bring up the contention of why would God let Satan do all this? Unless Satan was equally as powerful as God. This, of course, is probably blasphemous, but it would get rid of the evil paradox and would make the whole struggle against evil (plus the supposed events of the non-Biblical Rapture) less of a complete farce.
The answer, of course, has to do with free will.

Sorry I have been less than attentive here, eBay has been occupying much of my time lately.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2008 07:36 am
Hey Neo!

I didn't know you ebay? Seller or buyer? Hubby just bought a car off there. Awesome vehicle at an even more awesome price.

Satan is not equally powerful as God. Satan, for one, cannot create life as God does. Satan was originally an angel created by God. The creation cannot be as powerful as the Creator.

It IS all about free will. Man made a choice and God lets man make those choices. He also lets man suffer the consequences of those choices.
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Apr, 2008 11:42 am
saab wrote:
Ultimately, the only thing we can say about Hitler was he used to be Christian, but he may have rejected Christianity in the end. But there is no evidence to suggest he was atheist

Agree......He started to reject religion after his experiences during WWI.


I disagree. He didn't reject religion at all. He merely lamented the "flabbiness" of Christianity.

Quote:
I found Rama´s statement that Christians are bad and atheists haven´t done anything like rape, war and all that kind of things very one sided.


Well, technically, there haven't been any wars started in the name of atheism, whereas there has been in the name of religion. Otherwise, he's wrong. All viewpoints have their bad eggs.

neologist wrote:
The answer, of course, has to do with free will.


Arella Mae wrote:
It IS all about free will. Man made a choice and God lets man make those choices. He also lets man suffer the consequences of those choices.


Ah, but God also intervenes to punish people specifically for disobeying him. Yes he chose not to for the Holocaust. Furthermore, shouldn't a loving God not subject innocent people to the consequences bad choices made by bad people?

What did the Jews do to deserve the Holocaust?

Arella Mae wrote:
Satan is not equally powerful as God. Satan, for one, cannot create life as God does. Satan was originally an angel created by God. The creation cannot be as powerful as the Creator.


But that would make the struggle between Good and Evil a complete farce. Satan has to be equally powerful (or as close as possible) to God otherwise the threat of Evil isn't really a threat at all.
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Apr, 2008 01:05 pm
Adolf Hitler is the worst person next only to the organiszed dancing dolls like German pope who had exposed his ignorance in USA
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Apr, 2008 01:11 pm
I'm sorry, but there are far worse people than Adolf Hitler. For example, Adolf Hitler never actually came up with the idea of the Final Solution. He was an absolutely rubbish leader and spoke in vague visions, although I'm sure his gas speech must have inspired some sycophantic Nazi scumbag within his regime.

Dr. Josef Mengele is a prime candidate for worst human being. He could trump the Pope.

Show some restraint man. The Pope is an angel compared to Dr. Mengele.
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Apr, 2008 04:26 pm
As an athiest who got married to a Christian
I do agree without above views.
Regards without regrets
Respets without remorse.
Rama
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Apr, 2008 03:10 am
I think some creative framing has taken place in this discussion.

I don't think "blaming god" should be the nature of the critisism. Instead, if God does exist, a better critique is simply that there is no bennefit in allowing the events of the holocaust (or any other mass genocide for that matter).

Trying to make sense of why god would allow somthing which is absolutely irrational is shadowboxing. When you have to speculate to such a degree, you're throwing ALL the punches. Religious answers just don't make any sense.

If there is a god, it is powerless. If there is a god, and it's not powerless, then it's not worthy of the power.

The answer becomes obvious.
K
O
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