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Where was God during the Holocaust?

 
 
Zippo
 
Reply Sun 6 Apr, 2008 03:17 pm
Sixty years on, people still ask the same questions ' Where was G-'d during the Holocaust? How can you believe in G-d after the Holocaust? If G-d is just and righteous how could He allow the Holocaust to happen? Why didn't G-d perform miracles during the Holocaust?

Rabbi Answers:

Quote:
Why did the Holocaust Happen?

Joseph Telushkin

Why did G-d let the Holocaust happen and let all of those innocent people die? Where was he for the 5 or 6 million people who died, and why does he let people like hitler torment and oppress us?

While it would be presumptuous to try to answer this question, it is important to note that man-made evil is not, in and of itself, an overwhelming challenge to the idea of G-d's goodness. It is a basic tenet of Judaism that G-d gave man free will, and that as a result human beings can choose to do evil. If G-d stopped people every time they tried to do evil, there would be no more free will, which is the essence of what makes human beings human. Of course, this does not entirely resolve the problem of evil in the world. Why, for example, did G-d create in human beings--or at least in some human beings-- the desire to torture other people? There could have been free will without endowing some people with a propensity for sadism.

The problem of G-d's apparent passivity in the face of many evil acts is exacerbated by Judaism's belief that G-d sometimes does intervene to stop evil. "According to the Torah," one frequently hears post-Holocaust Jews say, "G-d intervened in Egypt and took the Jews out of slavery. Why did He not destroy the death camps?"

The question is poignant, but naive. The account in Exodus makes it clear that G-d did not intervene when Pharaoh enslaved the Jews. Generations suffered under Egyptian cruelty, and untold numbers of male Jewish babies were drowned in the Nile, before G-d sent *Moses to confront Pharaoh. From that perspective, it has been noted, one could say that G-d intervened in the Holocaust as well: Indeed, He stopped it, but only after six million Jews had been murdered. I do not claim that this answer is satisfactory; in all likelihood, there probably is no satisfactory answer.

One of the dangers of theodicy, in fact, is that in its attempts to justify G-d's ways to man, it frequently blames man for his sufferings. For example, one sometimes hears ultra-Orthodox Jews speak of the Holocaust as G-d's punishment for Jewish irreligiosity. Aside from the fact that suffocating a small child in a gas chamber seems an excessive response to the Sabbath violations of that child's parents, such a view makes no sense on other grounds. However irreligious European Jewry was in the 1930s and 1940s, the percentage of Jews in the United States who were religiously nonobservant was much higher. Yet American Jewry was spared the Holocaust and has had a very prosperous history.

Some anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodox thinkers explain the Holocaust as G-d's punishment for Jews turning to the secular, Zionist movement. This explanation seems even more far-fetched, since among the few European Jews who escaped the Holocaust were the Zionists who left Europe before 1939 and emigrated to Palestine. Indeed, some religious Zionist thinkers understand the Holocaust as G-d's punishment of those Jews who did not become Zionists and chose instead to stay in Europe. This argument is morally offensive, too. Putting children into gas chambers as punishment for their parents' refusal to respond to Theodor Herzl's challenge seems equally grotesque.

What is offensive about most attempts to explain the Holocaust is that, in one form or another, they convert Hitler into G-d's ally, or at least into His lieutenant. Somehow, Hitler is seen as carrying out G-d's will. Invariably, the people who offer such explanations accuse Jews other than themselves of having provoked G-d's wrath. Such theologians undoubtedly hope that if they can isolate what it is precisely that so angers G-d, then they will be in a better position to pacify Him. Rather than trying to decipher why G-d would have "wanted" six million Jews to be murdered by order of the most wicked human being who ever lived, the proposition that the Holocaust, murders, an many other daily cruelties are the result of human free will seems to make more sense.

There is no comparably easy answer to explain natural suffering. Why are there earthquakes, floods, cancer? Clearly, there is no discernible relationship between human goodness and human suffering. When a truly evil person becomes ill, many people feel a certain satisfaction that someone who has caused so much suffering is now experiencing it. Indeed, if illness or tragedy befell only bad people, we would undoubtedly witness massive movements of repentance. However, suffering seems to be quite evenly distributed among the good and the bad, and remains the single greatest challenge to religious belief.

Without suffering, there would probably be few nonbelievers in the universe. But, if the believer has his troubles with evil, the atheist has more and graver difficulties to contend with. Reality stumps him altogether, leaving him baffled not by one consideration but by many, from the existence of natural law through the instinctual cunning of the insect to the brain of the genius and the heart of the prophet. This then is the intellectual reason for believing in G-d: That, though this belief is not free from difficulties, it stands out, head and shoulders, as the best answer to the riddle of the universe.

Moreover, G-d, by definition, is a higher reality that our mind cannot grasp. If G-d is a given, there are no questions. Just as a computer program is cannot understand the motives of its programmer, it is illogical that creatures should be able to completely understand every decision of their creator and designer.

From Rabbi Joseph Telushkin's book, Jewish Literacy. The last paragraph was added by Mendy Elishevitz based on a letter by the Lubavitcher Rebbe

source


Comments on that site:

Vijay Simha said: Pure and Simple answer:

The Holocaust was Hitler's revenge on World Jewry which according to him prevented him from winning WWII.
It is very very clear from all his speeches a) One on Jan 30th 1939 where he makes the threat to annhilate European Jewry should the war he is planning degenerate into another world war where the whole world is pitted against Germany and her Meagre allies
b) Where during the course of the war he makes the "Aug um Aug, Zahn um Zahn speech citing the ongoing destruction of European Jewry in Couched terms
c) In his Final Political testament where he blames World Jewry for prolonging the war.
According to Hitler the War should have taken the following logical course:
a) After his invasion of Poland, England and France should not have declared war on Germany
b) Now this did not happen so he was forced to attack Western Europe to secure his rear before launching the real battle he had all along planned in Mein Kampf.
c) After the fall of France, England should have sued for peace.
This did not happen and England adamently wanted to pursue the war.
In Hitler's warped mind, the reason behind this decision of the Churchill Government is international Jewry.
Second he expected a swift victory in Eastern Europe. When this did not happen and America also joined the war against Germany in 1941 it became crystal clear to him that all these events transpired because of the pressures exerted by international Jewry.
Third the allied bombing of the Reich cost the Germans many cities in ruins and civilian deaths. Again the blame of
all this fell on International Jewish Financiers who were according to Hitler
prolonging the war to destroy the Reich.
So this was how he was going to get back at them.
It is possible to speculate that had an interim peace been reached with Hitler and his gang, the following would have happened.
a) Eastern Europe would have been a vast German colony
b) The Germans would have vacated Western Europe and France after stationing heavily armed forces on their Western frontiers.
c) The Jews of Europe would have faced deportation instead of outright extermination.

======================

Comment number two:

Milton Fried said:

The Rabbi's article did not explain in any way the existence of evil. We Jews have been promised, in the Torah, that if we follow the mitzvahs we will be protected by G-d. That has not happened.
If G-d is omniscient, He knows what everyone, including Hitler, will do before each person is conceived. G-d wills the conception of Hitler, if it is true that "not a leaf falls in the forest without it being the will of G-d", (to quote the Lubavitcher Rebbe). If the Rebbe was correct we must believe that God's will was to have the holocaust.

I do not believe that to be true. What is true is that God's nature is not what we have been taught.
It is obvious that the Rabbis know little or nothing about the essence of G-d. Why, then, do so many of them spend so much effort on trying to explain to us precisely what G-d wants.

The argument that men do not have the ability to understand G-d is no reason to expect man to believe what people tell them G-d wants them to do. If we do not have the ability to understand, we do not have the ability to really believe. I will be pleasantly surprised if you print this comment.

=======================

Please post your own opinions/comments. All theories/facts welcome.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Apr, 2008 04:16 pm
Maui?
0 Replies
 
curtis73
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Apr, 2008 07:06 pm
poopn
0 Replies
 
husker
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Apr, 2008 07:32 pm
"He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God."
Aeschylus
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 02:06 pm
Re: Where was God during the Holocaust?
Quote:
Quote:
Why did the Holocaust Happen?

Joseph Telushkin

Why did G-d let the Holocaust happen and let all of those innocent people die? Where was he for the 5 or 6 million people who died, and why does he let people like hitler torment and oppress us?

While it would be presumptuous to try to answer this question, it is important to note that man-made evil is not, in and of itself, an overwhelming challenge to the idea of G-d's goodness. It is a basic tenet of Judaism that G-d gave man free will, and that as a result human beings can choose to do evil. If G-d stopped people every time they tried to do evil, there would be no more free will, which is the essence of what makes human beings human.


Surely, this is fallacious? Stopping someone from doing something, does not stop them from thinking it. Free will is not just being able to do something, it is having the thought of doing something too. Stopping someone from doing something evil, is merely stopping them from expressing their free will, not having it.

Secondly, God has stopped people from doing evil things before (or rather, punished them). Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah's Flood and then there was the Egyptians.

Thirdly, why censor God? It's not blasphemous to say God. God isn't God's name. God is short for Lord God. It's his job title. If he existed, that is.

Quote:
Of course, this does not entirely resolve the problem of evil in the world. Why, for example, did G-d create in human beings--or at least in some human beings-- the desire to torture other people? There could have been free will without endowing some people with a propensity for sadism.

The problem of G-d's apparent passivity in the face of many evil acts is exacerbated by Judaism's belief that G-d sometimes does intervene to stop evil. "According to the Torah," one frequently hears post-Holocaust Jews say, "G-d intervened in Egypt and took the Jews out of slavery. Why did He not destroy the death camps?"

The question is poignant, but naive. The account in Exodus makes it clear that G-d did not intervene when Pharaoh enslaved the Jews. Generations suffered under Egyptian cruelty, and untold numbers of male Jewish babies were drowned in the Nile, before G-d sent *Moses to confront Pharaoh. From that perspective, it has been noted, one could say that G-d intervened in the Holocaust as well: Indeed, He stopped it, but only after six million Jews had been murdered. I do not claim that this answer is satisfactory; in all likelihood, there probably is no satisfactory answer.


Except he didn't. No Moses went up to the Fuhrer and told him to let the Jews go. God didn't tell Churchill to wage war against Germany. Hitler brought WWII on himself.

Quote:
One of the dangers of theodicy, in fact, is that in its attempts to justify G-d's ways to man, it frequently blames man for his sufferings. For example, one sometimes hears ultra-Orthodox Jews speak of the Holocaust as G-d's punishment for Jewish irreligiosity. Aside from the fact that suffocating a small child in a gas chamber seems an excessive response to the Sabbath violations of that child's parents, such a view makes no sense on other grounds. However irreligious European Jewry was in the 1930s and 1940s, the percentage of Jews in the United States who were religiously nonobservant was much higher. Yet American Jewry was spared the Holocaust and has had a very prosperous history.


For crying out loud. Maybe that had something to do with the fact that American Jews were nowhere near Hitler? I'm sure Australian Jews were spared, as were British Jews (well, if you don't count the bombings that is).

Quote:
Without suffering, there would probably be few nonbelievers in the universe. But, if the believer has his troubles with evil, the atheist has more and graver difficulties to contend with. Reality stumps him altogether, leaving him baffled not by one consideration but by many, from the existence of natural law through the instinctual cunning of the insect to the brain of the genius and the heart of the prophet. This then is the intellectual reason for believing in G-d: That, though this belief is not free from difficulties, it stands out, head and shoulders, as the best answer to the riddle of the universe.


What utter codswallop. We don't understand something, so God did it? Yes, that's right. We don't understsand how the moon orbits the Earth, so God must be responsible. Nothing to do with gravity, whatsoever.

And people wonder why Richard Dawkins thinks that religion stifles scientific thinking.

Quote:
Moreover, G-d, by definition, is a higher reality that our mind cannot grasp. If G-d is a given, there are no questions. Just as a computer program is cannot understand the motives of its programmer, it is illogical that creatures should be able to completely understand every decision of their creator and designer.


Wait a minute. Wasn't this supposed to be a discussion about why God would allow suffering? So, obviously, the Rabbi was more offended that someone asked a difficult possibly philosophical question and decided to take it out on an atheist? Bravo, Rabbi. Bravo. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 02:38 pm
Perhaps God is cheatoing on us... and is seeing another Universe on the down low.... and that's where He was during that time...
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2008 12:04 pm
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
Perhaps God is cheatoing on us... and is seeing another Universe on the down low.... and that's where He was during that time...


Certainly, the problem is that most Christians and Jews and by extension, Muslims, have bitten off more than they can chew.

If their God wasn't entirely omniscient, then this Problem of Evil wouldn't be a problem at all. Yet they insist on their God being omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and omni-loving. (Yes, I'm aware the latter is a nonsense term, but I was on a roll with the omni- prefixes).

I'm sorry, but the evidence around us suggests that that is absolutely absurd. Religious people have got to realise that he can't be all of those things and that one of those attributes must go.

Certainly, you can make a case that God isn't entirely omniscient or omnipresent, as there are quite often events within the Bible where God displays a severe lack of both. Perhaps religious people can go from there?

I'm sure as long as the omnipotent and omni-loving qualities remain intact, God is still no less a deity, right?
0 Replies
 
BDV
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2008 04:32 pm
Why is it always the holocaust thats brought up? what about all the other mass genocides that have happened before and since that event. Its always the same, use the "SHOCK" hollywood sentence, not the events that actually caused more deaths.

Why not talk about the next holocaust, which will be of this planet and entire population when the extreme right christians get their finger on a nuclear arsenal so they can recreate the holy predictions of the bible.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2008 12:32 pm
I tend to agree with you BDV. Though I do feel the Jewish holocaust was probably the most horrific in relation to the times.

God didn't cause the holocaust. Yes, He did allow it to happen. He created human beings with a free will. Some human beings took that free will and committed horrible acts. We all have a choice of whether to do right or wrong. Blaming God for our choices is a cop out in my opinion.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2008 03:31 pm
I live in Germany and I have nothing to do with christians (Hitler)
killing, maiming, butchering, torturing the jewish people..

I ask the author of this thread.
Which rascal god had allowed BUSH to do the same barbaric act?
0 Replies
 
Zippo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2008 03:50 pm
Ramafuchs wrote:
...

I ask the author of this thread.
Which rascal god had allowed BUSH to do the same barbaric act?


George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'

God said: yes, Tony Blair, invade Iraq
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2008 06:56 pm
Thanks
I will die a rational Athiest
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2008 08:37 pm
The ever present assumption when asking "Where was G-d?" is that Death; Suffering; Pain; Torture; etcetera, are the absolute Worse things that can happen to a human being.
I mean, most people don't ask "Where was G-d when I fell off the swing?" or "Where was G-d when I got turned down for a car loan?"
Why not?
Because of the above. Death and Suffering are the Worst possible things that can happen. The biggies. The things that G-d Should prevent if He was Just and Kind and Righteous.
Right?
Maybe not.

In one of the camps, during the Holocaust, there was a rabbi who would pray to G-d every day, thanking Him and Praising His Name. This rabbi went about the camp comforting other Jews and encouraging them to also pray and thank G-d.
This went on for weeks and months for a long time.
Finally, one day a fellow Jew who had been watching this rabbi all this time just couldn't take it anymore and he screamed at the rabbi - "FOOL! What the hell do you think you are doing? What are you praying for? We are all going to die here! We are dying horribly everyday! What the hell do you have to be thankful for?"
The rabbi replied, "I thank G-d that I am not one of Them - a Nazi."

We all make choices in Life.

If you could choose - would you? Would you be a Nazi Torturer? Or would you be a tortured victim?
Choose.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 07:44 am
Arella Mae wrote:
I tend to agree with you BDV. Though I do feel the Jewish holocaust was probably the most horrific in relation to the times.


I'd like to point out it wasn't a Jewish holocaust. It was a Holocaust. Gypsies, Jehova's Witnesses and homosexuals were also gassed. Then there were all those who were forcefully sterilised in the name of some bizarre, twisted eugenics program that would have actually made the survival of our species worse, not better.

Quote:
God didn't cause the holocaust. Yes, He did allow it to happen. He created human beings with a free will. Some human beings took that free will and committed horrible acts. We all have a choice of whether to do right or wrong. Blaming God for our choices is a cop out in my opinion.


True, but if God is all-loving, he would have at least intervened. Did he not intervene when the Jews were supposedly suffering under Pharoah in Egypt? Did he not intervene with Sodom and Gomorrah? Also, it was very clear that he intervened. He made a big show out of it.

You could say he sent the Allied Forces to intervene, but this wouldn't be true. The Allies only intervened when it suited them and it had nothing to do with the Holocaust atrocities.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 07:53 am
Where was god?

That one is easy.

He was NOWHERE!

A bit of friendly advice...
Remove god, the dadlike uber boss of creation, from your equations, and things could start to actually make sense.
Remove what you think you know about god, and then you might actually learn something about it. And then there would be no need for these threads that have nothing at all to do with anything but the misconceptions of intelligent people like yourselves who have had the misfortune of being led into a haze of mythical fog, with nothing but a matchbox to light your way.

Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 08:01 am
What most people fail to realize is that current affairs of the world are under control of God's adversary, the one who was able to offer Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in Matthew chapter 4.

That is why Jesus was inclined to say ". . . the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me." (John 14:30)

Seems hopeless, doesn't it?

But it is not.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 10:40 am
neologist wrote:
What most people fail to realize is that current affairs of the world are under control of God's adversary, the one who was able to offer Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in Matthew chapter 4.

That is why Jesus was inclined to say ". . . the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me." (John 14:30)

Seems hopeless, doesn't it?

But it is not.


But this would then bring up the contention of why would God let Satan do all this? Unless Satan was equally as powerful as God. This, of course, is probably blasphemous, but it would get rid of the evil paradox and would make the whole struggle against evil (plus the supposed events of the non-Biblical Rapture) less of a complete farce.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 03:12 pm
One of the main sales representative of god will visit USA on tuesday( the first visit)
His past is this.

"Joseph Ratzinger was born April 16, 1927 (he will turn 81 this week),
and grew up in Bavaria.
Although his father was vocally anti-Nazi,
he was forced to join the Hitler Youth, and then at the age of 17 was drafted into the German Army.
The pope's past proved moderately controversial, more so the speech he gave in September 2006, at Regensberg, the German university where he once taught.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/13/sunday/main4011627.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_4011627
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 03:52 pm
ill tell u were he was, he was busy NOT EXISTING!
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Apr, 2008 03:58 pm
Oh GOD if there is one
Save my soul If I have one.
Amen
0 Replies
 
 

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