0
   

I Guess They Will Have to Pry his Cold, Dead Fingers...

 
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 03:02 am
dlowan wrote:
oralloy wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
Well,let's see, they could bury him with that rifle he held up at the NRA convention after the Columbine tragedy. Now talk about having no respect for the dead...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/Colddead-fp.jpg

I mourn his death, he did do some decent things for civil rights but my image of him that I will remember the most is the one above. That, and his bad wooden acting and over-acting.




Shocking taste, Roxanne, but I am afraid I had to admit the cold, dead hands was the first thing I thought of when I heard about his death.


I hadn't heard he did anything for civil rights.....can you talk more about that?


The NRA is one of America's leading civil rights organizations.


That's certainly one possible viewpoint.


How many other civil rights organizations are as large and as prominent in America?

ACLU, NAACP.... Any others?

I'm sure I missed some, but it seems pretty evident that the NRA is among the top ranks.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 03:42 am
oralloy wrote:
dlowan wrote:
oralloy wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
Well,let's see, they could bury him with that rifle he held up at the NRA convention after the Columbine tragedy. Now talk about having no respect for the dead...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/Colddead-fp.jpg

I mourn his death, he did do some decent things for civil rights but my image of him that I will remember the most is the one above. That, and his bad wooden acting and over-acting.




Shocking taste, Roxanne, but I am afraid I had to admit the cold, dead hands was the first thing I thought of when I heard about his death.


I hadn't heard he did anything for civil rights.....can you talk more about that?


The NRA is one of America's leading civil rights organizations.


That's certainly one possible viewpoint.


How many other civil rights organizations are as large and as prominent in America?

ACLU, NAACP.... Any others?

I'm sure I missed some, but it seems pretty evident that the NRA is among the top ranks.




Depends on how you define the balance of civil rights re guns.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 03:59 am
dlowan wrote:
oralloy wrote:
dlowan wrote:
oralloy wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
Well,let's see, they could bury him with that rifle he held up at the NRA convention after the Columbine tragedy. Now talk about having no respect for the dead...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/Colddead-fp.jpg

I mourn his death, he did do some decent things for civil rights but my image of him that I will remember the most is the one above. That, and his bad wooden acting and over-acting.


Shocking taste, Roxanne, but I am afraid I had to admit the cold, dead hands was the first thing I thought of when I heard about his death.

I hadn't heard he did anything for civil rights.....can you talk more about that?


The NRA is one of America's leading civil rights organizations.


That's certainly one possible viewpoint.


How many other civil rights organizations are as large and as prominent in America?

ACLU, NAACP.... Any others?

I'm sure I missed some, but it seems pretty evident that the NRA is among the top ranks.




Depends on how you define the balance of civil rights re guns.


What is a "balance of civil rights"?

A civil right is a civil right.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 05:16 am
oralloy wrote:
dlowan wrote:
oralloy wrote:
dlowan wrote:
oralloy wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
Well,let's see, they could bury him with that rifle he held up at the NRA convention after the Columbine tragedy. Now talk about having no respect for the dead...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/Colddead-fp.jpg

I mourn his death, he did do some decent things for civil rights but my image of him that I will remember the most is the one above. That, and his bad wooden acting and over-acting.


Shocking taste, Roxanne, but I am afraid I had to admit the cold, dead hands was the first thing I thought of when I heard about his death.

I hadn't heard he did anything for civil rights.....can you talk more about that?


The NRA is one of America's leading civil rights organizations.


That's certainly one possible viewpoint.


How many other civil rights organizations are as large and as prominent in America?

ACLU, NAACP.... Any others?

I'm sure I missed some, but it seems pretty evident that the NRA is among the top ranks.




Depends on how you define the balance of civil rights re guns.


What is a "balance of civil rights"?

A civil right is a civil right.




I'd happily arguie it out with you, but guess what?


We'll never agree, and I can't be bothered fighting about American gun laws.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 09:06 am
I have heard a lot of absurd claims made by NRA supporters but this is the first time I have ever heard someone claim that the NRA is a civil rights organization mush less a leading one.

But dlowan is right, why waste time arguing with someone making such a stupid claim?
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 09:10 am
This is such a stupid thread, what a waste of time and space.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 09:14 am
A Brief History of the NRA from the NRA (nra.org)

Not even a mention of civil rights and just a brief mention of "Second Amendments Rights" in the last paragraph and the fact that the NRA never even got involved directly in these issues until 1975.

Dismayed by the lack of marksmanship shown by their troops, Union veterans Col. William C. Church and Gen. George Wingate formed the National Rifle Association in 1871. The primary goal of the association would be to "promote and encourage rifle shooting on a scientific basis," according to a magazine editorial written by Church.

After being granted a charter by the state of New York on November 17, 1871, the NRA was founded. Civil War Gen. Ambrose Burnside, who was also the former governor of Rhode Island and a U.S. Senator, became the fledgling NRA's first president.

An important facet of the NRA's creation was the development of a practice ground. In 1872, with financial help from New York state, a site on Long Island, the Creed Farm, was purchased for the purpose of building a rifle range. Named Creedmoor, the range opened a year later, and it was there that the first annual matches were held.

Political opposition to the promotion of marksmanship in New York forced the NRA to find a new home for its range. In 1892, Creedmoor was deeded back to the state and NRA's matches moved to Sea Girt, New Jersey.

The NRA's interest in promoting the shooting sports among America's youth began in 1903 when NRA Secretary Albert S. Jones urged the establishment of rifle clubs at all major colleges, universities and military academies. By 1906, NRA's youth program was in full swing with more than 200 boys competing in matches at Sea Girt that summer. Today, youth programs are still a cornerstone of the NRA, with more than one million youth participating in NRA shooting sports events and affiliated programs with groups such as 4-H, the Boy Scouts of America, the American Legion, U.S. Jaycees and others.

Due to the overwhelming growth of NRA's shooting programs, a new range was needed. Gen. Ammon B. Crichfield, Adjutant General of Ohio, had begun construction of a new shooting facility on the shores of Lake Erie, 45 miles east of Toledo, Ohio. Camp Perry became the home of the annual National Matches, which have been the benchmark for excellence in marksmanship ever since. With nearly 6,000 people competing annually in pistol, smallbore and highpower events, the National Matches are one of the biggest sporting events held in the country today.

Through the association's magazine, The American Rifleman, members were kept abreast of new firearms bills, although the lag time in publishing often prevented the necessary information from going out quickly. In response to repeated attacks on the Second Amendment rights, NRA formed the Legislative Affairs Division in 1934. While NRA did not lobby directly at this time, it did mail out legislative facts and analyses to members, whereby they could take action on their own. In 1975, recognizing the critical need for political defense of the Second Amendment, NRA formed the Institute for Legislative Action, or ILA.

Meanwhile, the NRA continued its commitment to training, education and marksmanship. During World War II, the association offered its ranges to the government, developed training materials, encouraged members to serve as plant and home guard members and developed training materials for industrial security. NRA members even reloaded ammunition for those guarding war plants. Incidentally, the NRA's call to help arm Britain in 1940 resulted in the collection of more than 7,000 firearms for Britain's defense against potential invasion by Germany (Britain had virtually disarmed itself with a series of gun control laws enacted between World War I and World War II).

After the war, the NRA concentrated its efforts on another much-needed arena for education and training: the hunting community. In 1949, the NRA, in conjunction with the state of New York, established the first hunter education program. Hunter Education courses are now taught by state fish and game departments across the country and Canada and have helped make hunting one of the safest sports in existence. Due to increasing interest in hunting, NRA launched a new magazine in 1973, The American Hunter, dedicated solely to hunting issues year round. NRA continues its leadership role in hunting today with the Youth Hunter Education Challenge (YHEC), a program that allows youngsters to build on the skills they learned in basic hunter education courses. YHECs are now held in 43 states and three Canadian provinces, involving an estimated 40,000 young hunters.

The American Hunter and The American Rifleman were the mainstays of NRA publications until the debut of The American Guardian in 1997. The Guardian was created to cater to a more mainstream audience, with less emphasis on the technicalities of firearms and a more general focus on self-defense and recreational use of firearms. The Guardian was renamed America's 1st Freedom in June of 2000.

Law enforcement training was next on the priority list for program development. Although a special police school had been reinstated at Camp Perry in 1956, NRA became the only national trainer of law enforcement officers with the introduction of its NRA Police Firearms Instructor certification program in 1960. Today, there are more than 10,000 NRA-certified police and security firearms instructors. Additionally, top law enforcement shooters compete each year in eight different pistol and shotgun matches at the National Police Shooting Championships held in Jackson, Mississippi.

In civilian training, the NRA continues to be the leader in firearms education. Over 50,000 Certified Instructors now train about 750,000 gun owners a year. Courses are available in basic rifle, pistol, shotgun, muzzleloading firearms, personal protection, and even ammunition reloading. Additionally, nearly 1,000 Certified Coaches are specially trained to work with young competitive shooters. Since the establishment of the lifesaving Eddie EagleĀ® Gun Safety Program in 1988, more than 12 million pre-kindergarten to sixth grade children have learned that if they see a firearm in an unsupervised situation, they should "STOP. DON'T TOUCH. LEAVE THE AREA. TELL AN ADULT." Over the past seven years, Refuse To Be A VictimĀ® seminars have helped more than 15,000 men and women develop their own personal safety plan using common sense strategies.

In 1990, NRA made a dramatic move to ensure that the financial support for firearms-related activities would be available now and for future generations. Establishing the NRA Foundation, a 501 (c) (3) tax-exempt organization, provided a means to raise millions of dollars to fund gun safety and educational projects of benefit to the general public. Contributions to the Foundation are tax-deductible and benefit a variety of American constituencies, including youths, women, hunters, competitive shooters, gun collectors, law enforcement agents and persons with physical disabilities.

While widely recognized today as a major political force and as America's foremost defender of Second Amendment rights, the NRA has, since its inception, been the premier firearms education organization in the world. But our successes would not be possible without the tireless efforts and countless hours of service our nearly three million members have given to champion Second Amendment rights and support NRA programs. As former Clinton spokesman George Stephanopoulos said, "Let me make one small vote for the NRA. They're good citizens. They call their Congressmen. They write. They vote. They contribute. And they get what they want over time."
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 09:18 am
Roxxxanne wrote:
I have heard a lot of absurd claims made by NRA supporters but this is the first time I have ever heard someone claim that the NRA is a civil rights organization mush less a leading one.

But dlowan is right, why waste time arguing with someone making such a stupid claim?


I guess if you can't stand the truth, you can always childishly insist that the truth is "stupid". Laughing
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 09:20 am
oralloy wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
I have heard a lot of absurd claims made by NRA supporters but this is the first time I have ever heard someone claim that the NRA is a civil rights organization mush less a leading one.

But dlowan is right, why waste time arguing with someone making such a stupid claim?


I guess if you can't stand the truth, you can always childishly insist that the truth is "stupid". Laughing


Its only a civil right if Roxxxanne agrees with it.
Just because its in the Constitution and is part of the Bill of Rights means nothing to her.

If she doesnt agree with it, it doesnt count.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 09:22 am
Roxxxanne wrote:
A Brief History of the NRA from the NRA (nra.org)

Not even a mention of civil rights and just a brief mention of "Second Amendments Rights" in the last paragraph


Not every civil right is a constitutional right, but constitutional rights do count as civil rights.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 09:24 am
Individuals that are anti-gun are also anti-freedom and anti-American.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 09:27 am
oralloy wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
A Brief History of the NRA from the NRA (nra.org)

Not even a mention of civil rights and just a brief mention of "Second Amendments Rights" in the last paragraph


Not every civil right is a constitutional right, but constitutional rights do count as civil rights.


You obviously haven't looked up the definition of civil rights. Besides, the NRA is a gun club not a rights organization by any means. Only an idiot would claim otherwise. As they pointed out they didn't even get involved in "gun rights" until 1975.
0 Replies
 
username
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 09:42 am
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 09:45 am
Roxxxanne wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
A Brief History of the NRA from the NRA (nra.org)

Not even a mention of civil rights and just a brief mention of "Second Amendments Rights" in the last paragraph


Not every civil right is a constitutional right, but constitutional rights do count as civil rights.


You obviously haven't looked up the definition of civil rights.


Civil rights are those rights provided by one's system of government. Examples include common law rights, constitutional rights, and rights provided by statutes.

They differ from human rights in that people possess human rights irrespective of what the government says or does.



Roxxxanne wrote:
Besides, the NRA is a gun club not a rights organization by any means.


Nope. Not a gun club, and they defend our civil rights.



Roxxxanne wrote:
Only an idiot would claim otherwise.


Or someone who was defending the truth.



Roxxxanne wrote:
As they pointed out they didn't even get involved in "gun rights" until 1975.


The fact that they've only been defending our rights for 30 years doesn't change the fact that they have been a leading defender of those rights for those past 30 years.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 09:48 am
username wrote:


Defending our country's fundamental liberties is "off the wall" in your view?

Sheesh!
0 Replies
 
username
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 10:00 am
The NRA's claim they are a civil rights organization is preposterous, oralloy.

Guns were invented to shoot people. That's what they do. Far too many people get shot with them, including that poor little three year old girl in today's news, who was playing with her parents' gun and shot herself in the head. Getting shot is tens of thousands of times a year the consequence of what you mischaracterize as a "civil liberty".

The second amendment was very clearly written about militias. Militias have always been government-regulated in this country. It's a collective right, not an individual right. It's up for adjudication by the Supreme Court. We'll see if the Bush court has the cojones to stand up to the special interests, be the original intent constructionists they claim to be, and say gun control is valid. The Supremes have caved a lot. We'll see whether they do again.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 10:31 am
let's go back to Mr. Heston's definition of civil rights

Roxxxanne wrote:
Yes, Heston was one of the first of the Hollywood types to support Civil Rights:

Quote:
Heston campaigned for Presidential candidate Adlai Stevenson in 1956 and John F. Kennedy in 1960.[10] When an Oklahoma movie theater premiering his movie was segregated, he joined a picket line outside in 1961.[11] During the civil rights march held in Washington, D.C. in 1963, he accompanied Martin Luther King Jr. In later speeches, Heston said he helped the civil rights cause "long before Hollywood found it fashionable."[12]

In 1968, following the assassination of Senator Robert F. Kennedy, Heston appeared on The Joey Bishop Show and, along with fellow actors Gregory Peck, Kirk Douglas and James Stewart, called for public support for President Johnson's Gun Control Act of 1968.[13][14] He opposed the Vietnam War and said he voted for Richard Nixon in 1972.[15]

---wikipedia


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlton_Heston

ooh look - civil rights was about .... civil rights
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 10:35 am
username wrote:
The NRA's claim they are a civil rights organization is preposterous, oralloy.


Nope. The right to have guns is one of our country's most important civil rights, and the NRA is a major organization that defends that civil right. That makes them a civil rights organization.



username wrote:
Guns were invented to shoot people. That's what they do.


Hunting guns were invented to shoot game animals.

Target-shooting guns were invented to hit non-living objects.

True that some guns were invented for shooting people though. But shooting people is a legitimate purpose for a gun -- that's what self-defense is all about.



username wrote:
Far too many people get shot with them, including that poor little three year old girl in today's news, who was playing with her parents' gun and shot herself in the head. Getting shot is tens of thousands of times a year the consequence of what you mischaracterize as a "civil liberty".


Accidental shooting deaths hardly number in the tens of thousands. (And if you want to ban something to save lives, start with cars. Car accidents kill far more than gun accidents.)

It is hardly a mischaracterization to point out the realty that the right to have guns is a civil liberty. That is what is known as "stating a fact".



username wrote:
The second amendment was very clearly written about militias.


In part.



username wrote:
Militias have always been government-regulated in this country.


Yes. So?



username wrote:
It's a collective right, not an individual right.


Founding Fathers said otherwise. So does the Supreme Court.



username wrote:
It's up for adjudication by the Supreme Court.


Yep. And they are going to confirm their earlier ruling that it is an individual right.

Next step will be to sue Chicago, to secure Fourteenth Amendment incorporation for the individual right.



username wrote:
We'll see if the Bush court has the cojones to stand up to the special interests, be the original intent constructionists they claim to be, and say gun control is valid. The Supremes have caved a lot. We'll see whether they do again.


"Say gun control is valid" is so vague as to be meaningless.

Whether gun control is valid depends on the individual statute in question, and whether it violates the Constitution.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 10:43 am
ehBeth wrote:
let's go back to Mr. Heston's definition of civil rights

Roxxxanne wrote:
Yes, Heston was one of the first of the Hollywood types to support Civil Rights:

Quote:
Heston campaigned for Presidential candidate Adlai Stevenson in 1956 and John F. Kennedy in 1960.[10] When an Oklahoma movie theater premiering his movie was segregated, he joined a picket line outside in 1961.[11] During the civil rights march held in Washington, D.C. in 1963, he accompanied Martin Luther King Jr. In later speeches, Heston said he helped the civil rights cause "long before Hollywood found it fashionable."[12]

In 1968, following the assassination of Senator Robert F. Kennedy, Heston appeared on The Joey Bishop Show and, along with fellow actors Gregory Peck, Kirk Douglas and James Stewart, called for public support for President Johnson's Gun Control Act of 1968.[13][14] He opposed the Vietnam War and said he voted for Richard Nixon in 1972.[15]

---wikipedia


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlton_Heston

ooh look - civil rights was about .... civil rights


Clicking the "civil rights" link in the article leads to an article that says:

"In common law jurisdiction, the term civil right is distinguished from 'human rights' or 'natural rights'. Civil rights are rights that are bestowed by nations on those within their territorial boundaries, while natural or human rights are rights that many scholars claim that individuals have by nature of being born."

Laughing
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 11:03 am
Fine work, oralloy, but this thread really is about Charlton Heston.

~~~

Charlton Heston marched with Martin Luther King Jr. - and the embedded link at wiki for civil rights movement on Mr. King's page tells us ...

Quote:
The American Civil Rights Movement (1955-1968) refers to the reform movements in the United States aimed at abolishing racial discrimination against African Americans and restoring suffrage in Southern states. This article covers the phase of the movement between 1954 and 1968, particularly in the South. By 1966, the emergence of the Black Power Movement, which lasted roughly from 1966 to 1975, enlarged the aims of the Civil Rights Movement to include racial dignity, economic and political self-sufficiency, and freedom from White domination.

Many of those who were most active in the Civil Rights Movement, with organizations such as SNCC, CORE and SCLC, prefer the term "Southern Freedom Movement" because the struggle was about far more than just civil rights under law; it was also about fundamental issues of freedom, respect, dignity, and economic and social equality.


while he may have later supported other causes, Mr. Heston publicly demonstrated against segregation in the United States.

It was an unpopular position then, as were some of his later positions.

I admire him for his willingness to speak out for what he believed in, if nothing else.
0 Replies
 
 

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