1
   

another reason republicans will lose this year

 
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2008 11:06 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
fishin wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Borrowed from another thread on a2k (show us how this is not true):


What does this have to do with your claim? You do realize that Petraeus is exactly ONE person right?

Here, I'll give you four from the other side.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdN8XpL36Pk

4 to 1?


Quote:
Generals can only do their "jobs" during a time of war; that's when they are put to the mettle to show their "stuff." Without war, they're just desk jockeys - something they hate, because they can't make a name for themselves. Making rank during peacetime is also much more difficult.


This just demonstrates your tenuous grasp on reality... You have ZERO clue what you are talking about.


You're the one who doesn't have any grasp of reality; the footsoldiers don't make the decision to go to war; the president does with the support of the military generals. General Petraeus is now playing politics rather than doing his job as a soldier; to protect America - not to bring democracy to the Middle East. His support of Bush's "surge" was a failure before it began. Even Petraeus said there needed to be a political resolution as well as a military one in Iraq, and if you understand anything about the puppet regime in Iraq, they're a big failure, and there is no solution in site.


Thank you for further demonstrating your complete ignorance of the issue.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2008 02:29 pm
Re: BBB
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
When I worked for the doctor's union, they had a saying that if you are a cancer patient, the medical speciality of your physician will determine the type of treatment you will received.

Example:

Surgeons will want to operate to cut out the cancer.
Oncologists will want to use chemotherapy to treat the cancer.
Radiologists will want to use radiation to treat the cancer.

We see this same example with John McCain. His dominating interest as a Senator has been the U.S. Military to the exclusion of most other issues. He own and his family's history is military. It is obvious that his first approach to resolving any issue is reflective of his military chauvinism. He tends to believe that military action is the solution of choice. That's a very dangerous bias against peaceful methods.

The speeches McCain has been making on his latest tour are really scary. His militarism is unmistakable. I suspect he is scaring the leaders of other countries, too.

I wonder why McCain is so different from General Ike Eisenhower when he became president?

BBB


Ok, back to your post...

First off all, McCain's "dominating interest" while in the Senate has never been the military so I have no idea where you got that from. His signature issues have been Government spending, Campaign Finance Reform and his crusade against government pork spending (aka "Earmarks" as they are more recently referred to...).

If you read the major legislation McCain has been behind you'll find things like the Gramm-Rudman bills and McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Reform bill.

He also served on the Commerce Committee (where he doesn't have much of a remarkable record) and Indian Affairs Committee where he was pretty well known and respected for trying to clean up the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

His major military issues early in his Senate career were Veterans care, POW/MIA issues and normalizing diplomatic relations with Vietnam. I doubt many people would consider any of these to be acts of sabre rattling.

Contrary to your assertion, there is no indication that his first approach to solving issues involves the use of military force. His two major forays into that area at all were his support of Bill Clinton on the issue of sending peacekeeping forces into Bosnia along with other NATO countries and his support of Bush in sending tropps into Afganistan and Iraq. I doubt anyone (other than perhaps the Serbs) seriously sees the use of NATO troops in Bosnia as an act of military aggression. His other actions as far as support of or against Bush policies have varied. He supported the Iraq resolution (in support of Bush) and also wrote an amendment to a bill to halt the use to torture methods (which Bush opposed) for example.

In comparing McCain to Eisenhower:

With both there appears to be a willingness to use the military for peacekeeping measures and - if you take a position that the "War on Terror" is similar to the Truman and Eisenhower Doctrines that pushed for containment of Communism - you could infer that McCain would be willing to send U.S. troops to other countries if he felt it was necessary to combat terrorism (this would appear to be what McCain is putting forth publicly with Iraq).

That would make a statement as far as making "We have a strong military and we aren't afraid to use it if need be!" an element of a McCain foreign policy (which would be comparable to Eisenhower's) but unless he's elected there isn't any way of knowing if he'd actually put it into effect. Eisenhower didn't actually use the military in many foreign adventures while President. Of course, the major thrust of the Eisenhower Doctrine was to contain the Soviets after the Suez War and isolate Nassar in Egypt and that ultimately failed... I will point out however that the Eisnehower administration bullied the British and French into accepting a cease fire in the Suez War through the use of a U.N. Security Council resolution which would hardly appear to be the act of someone who you (appear to) consider to be quick to use military force. Eisenhower also got involved in some minor escalation of financial support to the anti-communist side in Vietnam (French-Indochina) but he fell well short of any major U.S. military involvement. That didn't happen until later administrations.

McCain's criticisms of Bush's Iraq policies have been on the "how we do it" side which would seem to put him in pretty much the same mindset that Eisenhower concerned himself with during his administration.

Overall, I would say that there are strong similarities in how the two view the military as an instrument of Foreign Policy and the role the U.S. might play in using force internationally. Both appear to use a mindset that there is a "right" and "wrong" way to use military force and factor that heavily into their thinking. Eisenhower was very concerned with anti-colonial sentiment (especially in the Middle East) as British and French influence was wanning in the region. Given the complaints of "U.S. Imperialism" during the Bush administration, McCain would be wise to express the same concern.

I have to ask why you find "The speeches McCain has been making on his latest tour are really scary."? Is it his plan to involve international bodies more in decision making that bothers you? His desire to expand the G-8? His public statements against continued support of Musharraf in Pakistan? It seems to me that these are all things that fall in line with what Democrats have been screaming for over the last 7 years and in the case of Musharraf, actually go farther than any announced plan I've seen from either Clinton or Obama.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2008 02:43 pm
miller rhetorically inquires:
Quote:
Combine a DEPRESSION with a WAR and what do you have?


Something quite like the inside of your noggin, would be my guess.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2008 03:02 pm
Re: another reason republicans will lose this year
dyslexia wrote:
another reason republicans will lose this year


I can't think of any...
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2008 03:04 pm
I think, fishin, that you are seriously minimizing the reach and influence of Dobson. wikipedia has a fair bit on the fellow... see here.

More broadly, it is clear that the christian right is at best unethusiastic about this McCain candidacy, evidenced by, among many other things, the rise and suprisingly durable contest from Huckabee.

This presents a very real potential double blow for Republicans; decrease in voters and decrease in a vigorous and effective organization of ground-game activists.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2008 03:27 pm
blatham wrote:
More broadly, it is clear that the christian right is at best unethusiastic about this McCain candidacy, evidenced by, among many other things, the rise and suprisingly durable contest from Huckabee.


gotta keep up with your nymag reading, bernie.

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2008/04/mccain_ascendant_his_many_bles.html

Quote:
McCain domesticated the crazies.

Blitzing New Hampshire and running as dirty a campaign as he needed to win Florida, McCain knocked Mitt Romney out of the race before movement conservatives quite realized what hit them.

Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter have bitched about McCain, and James Dobson is still squawking.

But the far right is nothing if not pragmatic (more so, certainly, than the far left). And conservative elites love George W. Bush's tax cuts, which they trust McCain to make permanent, as much as they hate open borders, which they don't trust McCain to close. So just as many leading wingers adored Alan Keyes but voted for Bush in 2000, most have now moved behind McCain.

And it may be a pox on the media that the endorsements McCain got from John Hagee and Rod Parsley didn't get more attention. Politically, though, their meaning was clear: The virulent pastors were also kowtowing to McCain.

Then the Jeremiah Wright blowup triggered a shift away from the Democrats among precisely the kinds of voters McCain needs to win the general election.

The specific effect depends on the opponent McCain draws. Against Obama, he attracts a chunk of conservative Democrats, according to Gallup's latest numbers. And he keeps solid hold of the small-town conservatives and right-leaning Independents who had flickered toward the upstart senator.

Against Hillary, McCain makes his greatest inroads among Independents and liberal and moderate Republicans, who are increasingly turned off by her partisan and polarizing campaign.

But if you add either group of defectors to McCain's support among conservative Republicans (now more than 90 percent) and Hispanics (still about 35 percent), you get an electoral map that looks a lot more like 2000 or 2004 than the realigned Democratic landscape that seemed possible six months ago.


(I've posted bits elsewhere)
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2008 03:45 pm
ehBeth wrote:
blatham wrote:
More broadly, it is clear that the christian right is at best unethusiastic about this McCain candidacy, evidenced by, among many other things, the rise and suprisingly durable contest from Huckabee.


gotta keep up with your nymag reading, bernie.

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2008/04/mccain_ascendant_his_many_bles.html

Quote:
McCain domesticated the crazies.

Blitzing New Hampshire and running as dirty a campaign as he needed to win Florida, McCain knocked Mitt Romney out of the race before movement conservatives quite realized what hit them.

Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter have bitched about McCain, and James Dobson is still squawking.

But the far right is nothing if not pragmatic (more so, certainly, than the far left). And conservative elites love George W. Bush's tax cuts, which they trust McCain to make permanent, as much as they hate open borders, which they don't trust McCain to close. So just as many leading wingers adored Alan Keyes but voted for Bush in 2000, most have now moved behind McCain.

And it may be a pox on the media that the endorsements McCain got from John Hagee and Rod Parsley didn't get more attention. Politically, though, their meaning was clear: The virulent pastors were also kowtowing to McCain.

Then the Jeremiah Wright blowup triggered a shift away from the Democrats among precisely the kinds of voters McCain needs to win the general election.

The specific effect depends on the opponent McCain draws. Against Obama, he attracts a chunk of conservative Democrats, according to Gallup's latest numbers. And he keeps solid hold of the small-town conservatives and right-leaning Independents who had flickered toward the upstart senator.

Against Hillary, McCain makes his greatest inroads among Independents and liberal and moderate Republicans, who are increasingly turned off by her partisan and polarizing campaign.

But if you add either group of defectors to McCain's support among conservative Republicans (now more than 90 percent) and Hispanics (still about 35 percent), you get an electoral map that looks a lot more like 2000 or 2004 than the realigned Democratic landscape that seemed possible six months ago.


(I've posted bits elsewhere)


hi sweety (hug and bum pinch)

I did read it. But I don't entirely agree.

The reasons many of us on the left were anxious about a McCain nomination were his 'hero' standing in the popular mind, his 'maverick' reputation (including particularly his stand against 'washington' and some Bush people and polcies) and his potential ability to reframe Iraq as a good or necessary thing - the appeal to the 'national defense/we love the military and the flag' crowd. Each of these look like they could compel precisely those independents and unhappy republicans whom, as you said elsewhere, are necessary for a Dem win.

I think all of that still holds true (which is precisely why Rove has pushed McCain's campaign in the direction it has gone in the last two weeks).

And I think there's no question that such a campaign strategy for McCain will pull in many of the 'christian right' too.

But the NY Mag piece does ignore consideration of the the Tim LaHaye, Dobson, SBC crowd who were and remain so unhappy with McCain. Rove and Melhman and others depended on this sector and spent a lot of time cultivating it for electoral and ground game oomph, as I described in my earlier post.

True, there will be a solidification of support on the pragmatic basis that liberals and satan might win if that support is not forthcoming. But it's also true that there has been a very real and significant fracturing of the rightwing coalition.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2008 04:18 pm
blatham wrote:
I think, fishin, that you are seriously minimizing the reach and influence of Dobson. wikipedia has a fair bit on the fellow... see here.

More broadly, it is clear that the christian right is at best unethusiastic about this McCain candidacy, evidenced by, among many other things, the rise and suprisingly durable contest from Huckabee.

This presents a very real potential double blow for Republicans; decrease in voters and decrease in a vigorous and effective organization of ground-game activists.


On the contrary. I don't think I'm minimizing Dobson any more than he's done for himself. He's on the outs and is trying to hold on to some semblence of control. Personally, I think you greatly over-estimate his influence.

From the Gallup Poll I mentioned earlier:

"Additionally, some threat of deserting the party always takes place as party nomination battles are waged, and this threat can dissipate. For example, in answer to a recent Gallup question, 11% of Republicans said they would vote for the Democratic candidate or a third-party candidate next fall if McCain does not choose a vice president who is considerably more conservative than he is. (And another 9% said they just wouldn't vote.) These results suggest that it may be normal for some voters to claim early on in the process -- perhaps out of frustration -- that they will desert their party if certain things do not happen to their liking. And it may be equally likely that they fall back into line by the time of the general election. It is worth noting that in Gallup's historical final pre-election polls from 1992 to 2004, 10% or less of Republicans and Democrats typically vote for the other party's presidential candidate."

http://www.gallup.com/poll/105691/McCain-vs-Obama-28-Clinton-Backers-McCain.aspx

Now I find the line that some Republicans will jump to a Democrat unless McCain's VP is more conservative than him hard to buy into I can't believe that many other people would buy it either. Are we to believe that because McCain doesn't support the same position as Dobson on a handful of issues that he'll convince his followers to vote for someone that don't support any of their positions?

My suspicion is that they'll hold their noses and vote for McCain if that's who they are given as a choice.

The majority of Republicans/Conservatives got tired of Dobson long ago and I'd guess that Dobson will come around and support McCain in the long run anyway. If McCain loses (which he may very well do anyway) and the finger gets pointed at Dobson for the loss then Dobson will be roundly denounced within Republican circles and he'll cut his own throat as far as any future influence. I doubt Dobson is willing to take that risk.

Dobson isn't going to pull out some sudden 3rd Party candidate in September and swing many voters with it either. Perrot did it in 1992 and Clinton got elected. The religious nuts took over the Reform Party for the 1996 campaign and where are they now? Their Party candidates went absolutely nowhere in 2000 and 2004. The Democrats got bitten with the same sort of thing with Nader and unless the polls start showing that one candidate or another is going to run away with this election I suspect that all but a few diehards will stay away from any 3rd party come November.

Dobson has already tamed his critiques of McCain now that Romney and Huckabee are out. He called McCain's bluff and lost. IMO, he'll shut up and play in the corner while the big kids do serious work in this election.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2008 04:23 pm
blatham wrote:

But the NY Mag piece does ignore consideration of the the Tim LaHaye, Dobson, SBC crowd who were and remain so unhappy with McCain.


doesn't ignore them - evaluates them differently than you do

I think fishin's covered it nicely. It's very much what Michael Enright's show last Sunday revealed (worth grabbing the podcast if you didn't catch it then).
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2008 11:31 pm
Fishin
In relation to BBB's post about Eisenhower when he left the presidency he warned us about not trusting the military industrial complex because he knew that war makes industry money which both Bush and Mc cain know but dont care about. Bush should be held accountable for the 4,000 american lives he cost the U.S on a lie. But of course he will retire to his Texas ranch while the citizen solders he sent to Iraq will continue to suffer.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Apr, 2008 06:13 am
rabel22 wrote:
Fishin
In relation to BBB's post about Eisenhower when he left the presidency he warned us about not trusting the military industrial complex because he knew that war makes industry money which both Bush and Mc cain know but dont care about.


Yeah, Eisenhower did warn about the military/industrial complex. The speech (and his concerns) had little to do with money however. From his speech:

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."


Not really much there about money, is there? It's actually a very good speech and a perfect demonstration of a "military man" who did't see the use of military force as a first option.

Quote:
Bush should be held accountable for the 4,000 american lives he cost the U.S on a lie. But of course he will retire to his Texas ranch while the citizen solders he sent to Iraq will continue to suffer.


So you really didn't have anything to add to the actual discussion but just needed some "in" to rant about Bush? I see...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Apr, 2008 10:22 am
Nothing about money, because the military industrial complex is all "free."
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Apr, 2008 11:49 am
Of course, McCain has much bigger problems then his war stance; namely, he doesn't know much at all about a wide variety of issues that we face here in America; and it is going to be highlighted over and over again during the campaign.

When your candidate is on the record saying 'I don't understand the economy very well,' and promoting the same economic principles as the outgoing and unpopular president, DURING what seems to be a recession year - that's a major problem.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 06:59 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Nothing about money, because the military industrial complex is all "free."


I see you still have nothing intelligent to add to the discussion.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 07:02 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Of course, McCain has much bigger problems then his war stance; namely, he doesn't know much at all about a wide variety of issues that we face here in America; and it is going to be highlighted over and over again during the campaign.

When your candidate is on the record saying 'I don't understand the economy very well,' and promoting the same economic principles as the outgoing and unpopular president, DURING what seems to be a recession year - that's a major problem.

Cycloptichorn


McCain has a lot of problems for sure. I don't think a "use military force first" mindset is one of them however.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 08:46 am
fishin wrote:
blatham wrote:
I think, fishin, that you are seriously minimizing the reach and influence of Dobson. wikipedia has a fair bit on the fellow... see here.

More broadly, it is clear that the christian right is at best unethusiastic about this McCain candidacy, evidenced by, among many other things, the rise and suprisingly durable contest from Huckabee.

This presents a very real potential double blow for Republicans; decrease in voters and decrease in a vigorous and effective organization of ground-game activists.


On the contrary. I don't think I'm minimizing Dobson any more than he's done for himself. He's on the outs and is trying to hold on to some semblence of control. Personally, I think you greatly over-estimate his influence.

From the Gallup Poll I mentioned earlier:

"Additionally, some threat of deserting the party always takes place as party nomination battles are waged, and this threat can dissipate. For example, in answer to a recent Gallup question, 11% of Republicans said they would vote for the Democratic candidate or a third-party candidate next fall if McCain does not choose a vice president who is considerably more conservative than he is. (And another 9% said they just wouldn't vote.) These results suggest that it may be normal for some voters to claim early on in the process -- perhaps out of frustration -- that they will desert their party if certain things do not happen to their liking. And it may be equally likely that they fall back into line by the time of the general election. It is worth noting that in Gallup's historical final pre-election polls from 1992 to 2004, 10% or less of Republicans and Democrats typically vote for the other party's presidential candidate."

http://www.gallup.com/poll/105691/McCain-vs-Obama-28-Clinton-Backers-McCain.aspx

Now I find the line that some Republicans will jump to a Democrat unless McCain's VP is more conservative than him hard to buy into I can't believe that many other people would buy it either. Are we to believe that because McCain doesn't support the same position as Dobson on a handful of issues that he'll convince his followers to vote for someone that don't support any of their positions?

My suspicion is that they'll hold their noses and vote for McCain if that's who they are given as a choice.

The majority of Republicans/Conservatives got tired of Dobson long ago and I'd guess that Dobson will come around and support McCain in the long run anyway. If McCain loses (which he may very well do anyway) and the finger gets pointed at Dobson for the loss then Dobson will be roundly denounced within Republican circles and he'll cut his own throat as far as any future influence. I doubt Dobson is willing to take that risk.

Dobson isn't going to pull out some sudden 3rd Party candidate in September and swing many voters with it either. Perrot did it in 1992 and Clinton got elected. The religious nuts took over the Reform Party for the 1996 campaign and where are they now? Their Party candidates went absolutely nowhere in 2000 and 2004. The Democrats got bitten with the same sort of thing with Nader and unless the polls start showing that one candidate or another is going to run away with this election I suspect that all but a few diehards will stay away from any 3rd party come November.

Dobson has already tamed his critiques of McCain now that Romney and Huckabee are out. He called McCain's bluff and lost. IMO, he'll shut up and play in the corner while the big kids do serious work in this election.


But that's not my point. I'm not suggesting there's a third party split coming (at least presently) nor that many republicans will vote Dem or not vote at all because of Dobson's (or others such christian right leaders) words against McCain.

What I am suggesting is that there is a loss of prior levels of movement solidarity and movement activism and that this will have electoral consequences. If you've read or listened to David Kuo, you'll get a good sense of the degree of unhappiness that exists among the christian right (broadly, not just the nutcase edge like Dobson) with the modern Republican party and with the Bush administration. Dobson still has reach and influence and I think we would agree that McCain and the RNC would very much like to have him aboard.

Sure, Dobson and others (eg Coulter) are seeing the prospect of diminishment in their power and prestige under any of the three possible presidents and that goes a long way towards understanding their reactions. But electoral successes for the republicans over the last couple of decades have come about as a direct consequence of the builiding up of a strong coalition of partners and from the serious and strategic organization of them towards a passionate and cohesive electoral machine. And that picture has changed.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 09:07 am
I await Finn's arrival here. I can't wait to hear him expound on these obvious signs that the Republican party is on the verge of complete self-destruction.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2008 07:49 am
Here's a piece with relevance to the christian right/McCain issue...
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/08/us/politics/08hagee.html
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Apr, 2008 07:54 am
Surprising Political Endorsements By U.S. Troops
American Soldiers Speak Out About Their Presidential Endorsements link
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2008 05:56 pm
fishin wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Nothing about money, because the military industrial complex is all "free."


I see you still have nothing intelligent to add to the discussion.


You think you're intelligent? ha ha ha you make me laugh.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 05/24/2024 at 05:12:02