My opinion on a 'catch fire quick' topic

Yes, Setanta, can't have anyone eating off that tree of knowledge. The devoutly religious can, however, see it through the holes in the umbrella and some of the light filters through. It seems it burns them and they don't have a remedy for that.

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maliagar wrote:

[The others are so secure of each step they take, that they don't need guidance, support, or a balancing tool. They are the masters of the universe. Perhaps they can even walk above the void, grow wings, and fly towards infinity...

This fits perfectly with the secularist creed which seeks to disregard traditional religion as a "crutch", and to divinize the individual.

Sounds like Maliagar is trying to denigrate something that is superior to the methods he uses to get through life. This need to characterize non-religious philosophies in such snide terms is laughable.

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It can not be religion because not all people have a religion.

I dispute this. Of course, it depends on our definition of religion. If religion is defined as a belief in a transcendent God, probably not all people have a religion.

However, if religion is defined as a foundational belief or set of beliefs that gives our lives foundation, grounding, direction, and purpose, then everybody has and needs a religion (or a faith). And if anybody claims that he has built for himself this foundation through reason, he hasn't questioned his own "accomplishments" radically enough (for, why should we assume that reason or trusting our five senses is the way to go? Why not be irrational?).[/quote]

Well isn't that a convenient definition of religion! Sounds almost like Maliagar made it up from thin air in order to be able to say that all people have a religion. Kind of a cheap debating tactic if you ask me - and by posting it here, Maliagar was asking me.

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The only way of getting out of the swamp (or of not falling in the void) is by getting hold of something that is solidly grounded in something other than ourselves (our individual reason, our individual senses, etc.). At one point or another, we all have no other choice but to trust and embrace a creed (faith) that we cannot totally prove, but that will provide guidance and purpose to our walk.

And I suppose Maliagar thinks religion is something that is "solidly grounded???"

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In other words, those who are overconfident in their own abilities and are tempted to forget the rope are the ones who need the "crutch", the umbrella.

Jeez, another attempt to denigrate non-religious attitudes. I wonder what makes this kind of thing so necessary in Maliagar's postings.

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Boss - Don't think I can agree on that :wink:

Setanta wrote:

To my mind, it is no accident that education and research are inimical to religion, and that the more extreme among the religious condemn them.

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Well, Husker, i have been told time and again by religious extremists that education is a bad thing, and that the only book one need read is the bible. If knowledge and research were only neutral in such philosophical debates, then why is evolution theory such a boogie man to the religious right?

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Setanta wrote:

If knowledge and research were only neutral in such philosophical debates, then why is evolution theory such a boogie man to the religious right?

That doesn't mean yer throwing gunna throw the baby out with the bath water!

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No, but i am suggesting, Husker, that there are a good many of the religious extremists who are more than happy to toss the infant overboard.

I know you to be a reasonable man, Husker, and you know that i don't share your belief in this matter. I am not making a blanket indictment of those with religious conviction, and ought to have made that clear at the outset. I am making a blanket indictment of the religious extremist. Like any other variety of extremist, the religious variety does not take kindly to investigations which may tend to vitiate or negate their basic thesis.

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Setanta wrote:

Well, Husker, i have been told time and again by religious extremists that education is a bad thing, and that the only book one need read is the bible. If knowledge and research were only neutral in such philosophical debates, then why is evolution theory such a boogie man to the religious right?

I grew up this way. I'd have to keep all other books hidden and I had to steal whatever I wanted to read (found lots of books in the trash as well).

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Setanta - religious extremists I believe are the ones that draw the attention - and they're what % of the Faith communities, and by religious group I'll bet the % rises and falls. So if I'm thinking Christian -I'm thinking just caught myself - it needs to be painted more broadly.

Craven - I'm sorry that you had to grow up that way. Now that you've grown-up and you are free, you can read what ever you want when you want. Throw down those shackles Wink

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By contrast with Craven, although my grandparents kept faith with their commitment, and sent me for catholic instruction, there was no religious component in the home. I was not free to question the authority of the rules by which we lived in that home, but i was free to question everything else, and to read anything. I am certain this accounts for my having rejected religion completely by the time i was thirteen.

Yes, Husker, you have a right to my acknowledgement that i consider the majority of Christians to be decent people who seek to live well in the world, with justice to others, and tolerance of others.

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It's sad that the religious extremists *are* the ones who get the headlines, just like the political extremists. Like Soz said further back, there are a lot of people out there who are religious but have the ability to balance their beliefs with common sense.

Craven, I'm curious...you're young, right? How early did you leave home (is that too personal)? You seem to have done very well in gaining secular knowledge considering your age and upbringing. Sad that you had to sneak around to do it.

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LibertyD wrote:

I think that's a pretty good opinion, Eileen. Religion should never be used as a crutch.

It depends. Sometimes we need a crutch. Perhaps more often than not. It is a human fact, you know? Crutches are positive tools: They help us keep a balance and walk when we can't on our own.

Of course, there will always be people who say: "No, no, no. I don't need anything. I'm the master of my universe..."

Until the day comes in which some extreme human experience forces them to face a truth about themselves that was with them all along... the radical limitation... the wounded nature... the need for support.

Now, what makes a better crutch? A religion that synthesizes the wisdom of the ages? Or some numbing quick-fix (such as hedonism)?

:wink:

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EileenM wrote:

So why do people use religion as a crutch?

Because it provides support.

And we all need support.

A foundation.

A direction.

A purpose.

Otherwise, we fall...

...into the void.

The real question is not if we need support, but what kind of support.

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maliagar assumes humans are born with such a deficiency that a crutch is needed.

A part of me agrees. There are, after all, many people born with a great deal of stupidity inherent to their thoughts.

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LibertyD wrote:

Craven, I'm curious...you're young, right? How early did you leave home (is that too personal)? You seem to have done very well in gaining secular knowledge considering your age and upbringing. Sad that you had to sneak around to do it.

To be fair I was educated well initially. The cult believed in basic education and taught me to read at an early age (actually that was more my mother's doing, other kids did not get the same basic education).

They got tired of trying to exorcise me and kicked me out when I was 12 or 13. They figured I'd get a taste of the world and want to come back but the opposite was true. I attended a bit of school in the US (part of 7th grade, then 9th and part of 10th) and never wanted to return. As I was a minor I was forced to return to Brazil once but was adamant about returning stateside to get an education. It didn't really work out well as I had difficulty in supporting myself and I never really did get a formal education but from my experiences with it I wouldn't have learned much there anyway.

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LibertyD wrote:

I think that people use religion as a crutch out of laziness -- they don't want to have to make up their own minds about what they need to do with their lives.

Wrong. Religious people have made up their own minds very definitively.

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They want to be told how to live their lives rather than deal with making decisions on their own.

Wrong again. They make decisions every single day. They just don't go around pretending the reinvent the wheel on their own.

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Then, there's always that guilty touch of "If you don't believe, then you're an ultimate sinner" to that.

Guilt is everywhere... also among those who feel attracted to the mystery, but feel guilty of accepting the "irrational".

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then there are those who are lonely and find solace and companionship in religions that promise them peace of mind...

This one's true.

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or those who are looking for a fight and find it in religion.

You bet! :wink:

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In all those ways (and many more) religion is used as a crutch.

I'd emphasize the "many more" part of your diagnosis.

:wink:

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sozobe wrote:

I do know plenty of very smart, un-lazy, social, and ambuiguity-tolerating people who are religious.

Have we met? :wink:

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While it is sometimes used as a crutch, I don't think it always is.

I agree.

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LibertyD wrote:

I was only talking about those who use it as a crutch.

Religion is a crutch that we all need. Granted, some may use this crutch to walk, while others just to stand (or worse, to contemplate their own misery), but that's a different issue.

Aside from the fact of the astounding levels of self-righteousness involved in going around judging and condemming those who, in our eyes, don't appear as self-possessed as they should... because they are not trying to reinvent the wheel.

[U.S. culture worships self-confidence, being one's own "man", becoming a "self-made" individual, having "our own opinion" about everything under the sky, and hiding our insecurities...]

A little socratic self-examination always helps to become aware of (and comfortable with) our limitations.

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There's nothing wrong with religion itself, IMHO.

I disagree. There's nothing wrong with man's need for religion. But some religions are better suited to satisfying this need than others. And some religions do indeed dehumanize man.

:wink:

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EileenM wrote:

To think that people hate, threaten, discriminate, and murder others because of their lack of understanding religion says something about it

I totally agree.

But don't mention this to the literalist gurus.

:wink:

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Maligar, yes, crutches are wonderful:
They are support when you don't have the strength.
However, if one never learns to take a step without the crutch then they weaken themselves. They grow too attached to their unnatural support that they can not walk by themselves.
Yes, sprituality can be beautiful for some people. Listening to the wind, watching children play, feeling the heat of the sun. But religion, organized religion, scares the hell out of me. Or at least the idea of 'hell' is used to scare me.
There is so much pain in this world and hurt and anger and war, it saddens me that their are people who use 'religion' to provoke it. Mass suicides, bombings, children throwing eggs at other children, gay bashing, racial burns, witch burns...
If you choose to believe in a higher power, a 'religon', fly at it but do not make attempts to prove it. To prove that we all NEED it. How can someone use 'cleansing' as an excuse to cause pain?
And, Maligar, Poin A and Point B are very different for everyone one because of the setting, the time, the reason.

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My opinion on a 'catch fire quick' topic

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