YOUR theories on dog training!...

agility girl - great to see you posting here!

When we finished our last round of intermediate obedience, they gave us a clicker to take home and try out. It's been pretty good, but I can't quite figure out how to work with one dog, without inadvertently training the other dog to do something. Any thoughts - other than physically separating them?

I was a grand failure using dog treats with training. My pup paid complete attention to the treat, not me! I had to skip that one. I tried simple things and a ton of praise, no punishment. She thought it was play time and I still couldn't get her attention!

Here comes one of my son's friends telling me how smart the dog is. She must be. She is pretty talented at getting her way! He has her complete attention. She sat, gave him her paw, laid down. What? How did he do this?? He did the exact same thing I tried, praise with no punishment.

I haven't seen a clicker used. That does sound interesting. I'm trying to figure out how a teen got this pup completely calm and attentive. I have gotten all my dogs trained, but not nearly as fast as this kid did.

I generally just switch back and forth between the two. The one that isn't being worked with at the time figures out that the click doesn't earn him a treat when you aren't working with him. I haven't found that I am inadvertently training behaviors with the dog I am not working with. Interesting question, though.

When I start training a behavior (fancy word that just means some thing like sit or down) I actually want the dogs attention to be on the treat, not on me. I use the treat as a lure, for instance if I was training a sit I would slowly raise the treat above the dogs nose, and because he would follow the treat his but would naturally fall and then I would click(or if you don't have a clicker, a short word such as "yes" also works) After the dog was sitting every time I raised my hand above his head I would put the treat in my pocket, and just make the same hand motion. When the dog did it I would click and bring the treat out of my pocket. Slowly, I would choose only the best responses to click and treat, until the dog was only being rewarded once in a while. The same principle can be applied to teaching the dog anything!

It's become a bit of an interesting dilemna for me. One of my dogs is treat focussed - the other isn't. The one that isn't treat focussed will start modifying his behaviour in reaction to clicks for the other dog - which is definitely not on the agenda (he's already quite well-trained, i don't want him switching what he does). The treat focussed one is fine when I'm clicking with the other - if there's no treat, she's not interested.

I'll definitely be back to for more on this topic!

Hi agility girl.... welcome to A2K!!

I love agility.... I've taken tons of lessons and I did a few "fun day" events.... Last year, I got Jack's ILP papers from the AKC, so now I have no excuse to avoid entering an AKC agility trial... LOL...

Where do you live??? Do you enter any trials???

Jack (4-yr-old Border Collie) is FAST.... he's too fast for me sometimes.... LOL...

Jack doesn't like the clicker.... I do the "yes", like you described above.... it works for us.... we do a lot of "tug" and a lot of focus-type exercises....

I'm working on giving hand commands.... replacing the word command with a hand signal.... Jack will "speak" and "wave" and "twirl" with just a hand command, along with the usual "sit" and "down" and "stay" and "come".... I'm trying to move further and further away from him, while doing the hand commands.... it's great fun.... Jack lives to please!!

About training two dogs.... I have another Border Collie (well, actually she belongs to my daughter, but my daugher's new job keeps her "on the road" now).... Bunny and Jack love to train together.... I've been working at giving them different commands at the same time (not silently, though).... I can do "Bunny Stay" and "Jack Here".... "Bunny Sit" and "Jack Down".... that kind of stuff.... it's not easy!!.... they want to be doing the same thing....

This thread is inspiring me... LOL.... I'm at work right now, and I can hardly wait to get home and "play".... I'll buy some hot dogs on the way home.... that's what I use for treats.... I cut them into thin rounds....

here's a link to a Webshots album.... you can see Jack's picture here....

http://community.webshots.com/user/sandra9663

PaL
:-)

Thanks for the tip Agility! The pets I have had owned do me know me a bit too well. I'm great at spoiling them rotten. I'm not so great at training. It always has taken me a lot of time with dogs.

I may not be fantastic at training dogs, but they always want to please you. As they get a bit older, they understand unhappy tone of voice. I have never been able to quickly train any of my dogs.

Now I have an energetic and affectionate Boxer. Wow, is she demanding! This dog is also worth every second of my time, even if a bit overwhelming at times. She has been treated well by everyone and doesn't understand that some people don't love enthusiastic dogs or like dogs at all.

She never barks when someone comes to the door, just waits with happy anticipation to greet a new person, who she assumes will be kind and like her, as everyone in this house does. My son's friends all adore her. She assumes every person she sees is kind and loves animals. She isn't quite correct about that one!

I am having a problem with her excitedly jumping on people coming to my home. The boys adore her enthusiasm and let her do this. I have a ton of teens in my home that love animals or just are more tolerant than adults if they don't like friendly dogs. She is so used to being well treated and accepted. My mother in-law, a total cat person, is the only person that doesn't adore this dog and find her affection and love for people pleasing. She hates this dog! She tolerated my Lab, who died, that did not seek such affection of people that this Boxer does.

She seems to get larger every day and strong enough to knock you over. She isn't even done growing yet! This may be fine with teens, but not with adults coming to my home, but she doesn't show restraint after command. She does initially stop throwing herself at people, but is doesn't last very long at all.

She understands no. She doesn't appear to have the self restraint to continue not jumping all over people in my home. She is getting entirely too large and strong for this behavior. I am repeatedly commanding her no and down. She does it on command, but that doesn't last very long. I do not punish her, just use the unhappy tone.

Eventually she will calm down and be more obedient, but she is six months old and very smart. She is so impulsive, but after seeing the attentiveness she gave to my son's friend, I know that she is definitely capable of calm and attentive behavior, which I don't get much of. This kid is much better at training dogs than I am.

I get it. I was using treat training the wrong way and gave up thinking I was using the wrong approach. In reality, I did not know how to utilize this method correctly and gave up. She is very interested in treats. Obviously I am doing something wrong here! I do get my dogs well trained, but it takes me a lot of time. It didn't for an 18 year old friend of my son's.

I have never used obedience classes with any of my, now deceased, dogs. I have found the Boxer to be very challenging, but worth every second I spend with her. This isn't a breed I would give a recommend to anyone but true dog lovers willing to meet the demands and challenges of this breed, by any stretch.

My brother first questioned me about buying 'The Bloodsport Dog of England' and went to adoring the breed once he met my dog. I talked him out of buying a Boxer. Not a good choice for him since he will be overwhelmed by the needs of this breed. My dog does love kids of all ages. He has young children, which my dog adored because kids play, just as she wishes to. He doesn't understand the time spent with this breed.
I again give thanks for the correct way to use treats for training. I will have this dog a well behaved family member, who we all adore. She is much more demanding than any dog I have owned, but also ranks above my yellow lab, which I didn't think was even possible.

A Lab is a lot more obedient and less demanding than my Boxer. You can't love one pet more than another if you are a true animal lover. You accept the differences in all animals. I adore cats too. I have never known a dog to love like this Boxer pup.

She wont even let me use the computer knowing that I will ignore her, but wont if I am watching TV. She doesn't want or need anything at all. She hates not being able to cuddle with me is all. It takes her less than five minutes before attempting to steer me away from using a computer! I only use it when someone can entertain her, besides me. She is that smart! She is very demanding of time, which I do give.

I feel an obligation to give more to this dog than my beloved Lab, only because she seems to psychologically need this attention and love in return, which my Lab didn't. I still can't even look at my Lab's grave. I loved her so much. This is really going to kill me when I outlive this one and have to put her into the dirt.

I realize that I am no pro at training, just one at spoiling a pet rotten. I do insist on good behavior out of all pets, including my cat that had aggressive tendencies, which I corrected. Any tips are much appreciated to get my dog trained, a bit quicker than my usual, would be greatly appreciated!

How do you use a clicker? I don't get this method of training at all. Why does this work? It doesn't seem like the sound of a click would do anything behaviorally for a dog, but apparently it does. What are good methods of dog training that are much faster than my own? I am admittedly very slow, but get the job done in time. lol!

Obedience training is well above me! I think people who can train dogs like this are either gifted or magicians. Seriously! What are the tricks of the trade so us normal dog owners who love them so much can train our pets more easily? Please share any knowledge! I need it with a demanding pup!!

Wildflower - have you gone to any training with this new dog? I think all dogs and owners really benefit from at least some beginner/basic training. I've found the courses at Petsmart very good - and affordable. Best of all, they're not stuck on one type of training. They really only support positive reinforcement - but will work with you to determine which particular technique will work best for you and your dog.

We learned that for my older dog, while he loves treats (and will steal any he can), his response to training is very focussed on my "up" voice. He seems to be willing to do almost anything to hear that tone. Each dog is different, so one training method won't work for each dog. Take the time (and a bit of money - here 6 classes cost less than $100 - and there are single class options) and meet the trainer with your dog.

You definitely don't want your dog jumping up on ANYONE when they enter the home. Insist that everyone ignore the dog when they first come in - only provide positive feedback once the dog has calmed down. (This is a classic from Dr. Coren - if you don't have any of his materials, at least check one of his books out from the library).

Awww! She's cute! Adorable!!!!

Ya mean there are dogs that aren't treat focussed?? Both of the dogs my parents had (one after the other, not at the same time) were spoiled, treat focussed pups! Especially the one they have now. She's a droolie beastie on top of it. But still adorable.

This isn't exactly the same but it says the same thing on the small sign outside my parents' front door.

Caprice, Bailey is soooooo not treat-focussed. He will turn down food treats to get love treats.

Miss Cleopatra (Setanta's current avatar) on the other hand ... oy! she's never met a food treat she didn't worship. So much so, that she sometimes has trouble focussing on the training. You can just see her little mind going "i know there's going to be another treat. where's the next treat? i know there's another treat. where's the treat? where's the treat? WHERE'S THE TREAT". she can work herself into quite a tizzy sometimes.

*L* My parents dog can't even form that much of a sentence! It's "food...food...food".

During an attempt to photograph her, I once tried a trick that had worked before with another beastie. I had someone behind me hold up a treat so she would look up, but towards the camera. I was just about ready to hit the shutter when two long strings of drool escaped, one from each side of her mouth. I lost it. It was too funny.

Wildflower... sounds like you have a wonderful Boxer.... they are great dogs, as you are discovering!!

This is just a thought, about the jumping up.....

You should only use the word "Down" for the command when you want your dog to lie down on the floor.... use the word "Off", along with raising your knee into your dog's chest, when she jumps on you.... ask your teenagers to do this, too.... "Off" with the knee (gently!!).... then, when you anticipate the dog jumping on you, say "Off" before it happens.... she'll associate the knee push with the word and will keep her feet on the ground....

Be sure to reinforce the good behavior.... when your dog is standing by you, with all four feet on the ground, reach down and pet her and scratch her chest and tell her how much you appreciate her "four on the floor" behavior....

It's really important to be consistent.... you can't allow her to jump on certain people sometimes.... she must always remember to stay "Off"....

I totally agree with EhBeth.... A good basic obedience class or a "family dog" class is worth every penny.... and, those classes are really fun (if you have a good instructor)

Also, an excellent book is "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson....

Have fun!!!

PaL
:-)

Thanks for the tips Peace! Come to think of it, I have heard of the knee thing to train them to give a bit less of an enthusiastic greeting to people in your home that don't necessary like this sort of thing, including myself. I can't leave this house and come back without her excitement and jumping pounce, which is getting to be enough to knock you over as she grows larger and stronger.

It has been a while since I last trained a dog. Sometimes, you tend to forget. I guess everyone knows how it is with a new baby, worrying about everything! lol! This may be a challenging dog, but is the most loving dog that easily senses your emotion as well. I still can't believe this is a dog!!

I have read the warnings that the Boxer isn't for a first time dog owner. I'm not. My terrier was an abuse case kept in a cage constantly by greedy people wanting cash. I figured if I could make a good dog out of him, I could work with any dog.

As all my readings warned, I have found the Boxer to be the most challenging as well as the most rewarding dog I have ever laid eyes on. When we considered this breed, I had many reservations. I do a survey with people I know with stupid issues like this to get opinions and ideas from others.

I found that some people dislike the breed because of aggression. I take that as fair warning and something to consider when training. I do not wish to have a walking lawsuit. Too many people come and go from this house, all teen friends of my kids.

Aggression was the main objection to buying a Boxer, secondary to the "I chaise parked cars" look. I did flip on this issue of aggression for a few because of my pups style of play, mean dog, but has a completely different personality, which I didn't understand. I corrected aggressive behavior out of my cat. I certainly will not tolerate this behavior at all.

Although this bothered and concerned me a lot initially with my pup, I found that by default, no one ever allows her to even bite hard enough to leave a scratch without correction, even during rough play she adores. I have also been advised by people owning aggressive breeds never to allow the slightest bit of aggression as acceptable. I no longer worry about this at all. This is the sweetest and most lovable dog I have ever laid eyes on. I learned that poor owners impressed with aggressive breeds either do not correct their dogs while very young or encourage aggressive behavior, ruining the dog.

I took this responsibility towards the dog and others very seriously and so do the boys. I only own one of them, but there are my son's three best friends that love animals and do spend a lot of time with her. One of the boys was the one who shocked me teaching her things. Another of the boys claims his large dog of 13 is healthy because he is loved and has the will to keep going only because of the love and attention given. The other one just likes dogs.

It is a group effort training this pup. Of the boys, which she adores seeing, we have three animal freaks and one that likes dogs. Count me in as an animal freak. My daughter thinks the dog is a pain because she demands so much attention, but was raised around animals her entire life. My husband is trying to figure out why this dog doesn't accept him as she does the rest of us. He is never home and doesn't spend the time with her. Easy one! He takes it personally, so I lead the dog to him for play just to spare feelings.

Back to my survey, after a multitude of reading material on the Boxer, I got rave reviews from many people that were familiar with this breed. It isn't a popular one where I live, which is good to so you can get quality breeding.

My father in-law is an avid cat person, but gave glowing review to the Boxer of England, where he was educated years ago. His words, exuberant and delightful. I have found that he was completely correct with his description of the Boxer. You do have to spend a lot of time and energy with them to bring these fantastic traits out. A Boxer really isn't for anything but a true animal lover, I have found.

You really have to duct tape me when it comes to animals. I love talking about them. Sorry to put everyone to sleep! I do have a question about training and whether or not it would be beneficial to my dog. There is a solid number of seven people contributing to her training. I do allow my son's friends in my home. They adore her as if she were their own dog. You can see her acceptance of the boys by her joyful reaction when they come to the door.

Is it realistic to take a dog to obedience classes when seven people contribute to training this pup? All of the seven do care about her. Each has something different to contribute, all in a positive way. No one ever allows aggressive behavior out of her or treats her an any way but love for an animal. She is very ignorant that people may not like her. She has never been exposed to anything but kindness. She even knows that it is unacceptable to upset the cat and doesn't.

She is very intelligent, even as a pup, and will only get smarter as she grows. She evaluates absolutely everything and sometimes doesn't feel safe. A pop machine confused her and sent her flying. So does a large number of people.

My son was off work Friday evening and I counted 12 teens in my basement. She was curious about people, but showed reserve. She bugged me to death wanting to go upstairs and to the basement. I keep that door shut. I am happy to say, she showed absolutely no traits of aggression at all, just intelligence and curiosity.

She was being a complete pain! She know me well enough to lead me to what she wants, now! She wanted me to go in the basement with her to see new people. 12 was a little overwhelming to her. I know that anyone who treated this dog poorly would get quickly chewed by my son and his close friends. The dog doesn't. She wanted me as a confidence factor to protect her in a crowd which she was curious about, but timid of.

I have never seen a dog demand this. Either they don't want to deal with a crowd or do without reserve. She was actually bugging me to death to stay with her while she evaluated her curiosity. I was wishing she would make up her mind whether or not she wanted to go in the basement. She wanted me there constantly as a way out when she got uncomfortable and wished to go back upstairs. This went on for hours of coming and going to see new people, which she loves individually, but was uncomfortable in numbers. Of course, I indulged her. I am fantastic at spoiling all of my pets.

Has anyone ever had this sort of behavior? She gets spooked by things she doesn't understand, but remains curious wanting trusted protection to investigate. This wasn't a one time thing. I went downstairs with her, where she knows the guys, but not all those strangers she was curious about. She wasn't comfortable to stay there. She wasn't comfortable without me to be there to make sure she got upstairs. She couldn't make a decision at all. It was up and down all evening!

Now I know why they aren't a recommend for first time dog owners! I don't know if all Boxers act like this. She is trying to learn and understand things and will bug me to death for help, which she knows me well enough to give into her needs. Is this the breed or just the individual dog?

Ok, I will sum it up for people that can't live through my animal posts!

1) Is it realistic to expect anything out of basic obedience classes when seven people contribute to the training of one six month old pup?

2) What do you realistically do with a demanding breed that is curious, yet reserved, demonstrating a continuous need for your attention and presence to confront a fear, yet a curiosity? Do you indulge them to discover, even if they can be a real pain with confusion? Do you force decision one way or the other by not allowing a dog to behave this way, which is very time consuming for an owner? Should I indulge such curiosity and give her the mental protection which she needs and allow her to come and go, with my presence as a feeling of safety by a dog? Am I teaching her anything but to be spoiled or a lesson in life she has to learn by indulging this behavior?

Sometime you need all the help you can get! lol!!

That sure is a lot of material, wildflower. I'll just take on one piece of this.

Yes, I do think you should do basic obedience classes with the dog AND with your son, and daughter. Most classes recommend that more than one family member participates in the training. It's best for helping the dog understand the family ranking.

compete?


I live in British Columbia, Canada. I compete in Agility Association of Canada trials. Hey great about your ILP, you really don't have an excuse. You probably know this already, but you can compete in any organization with an unregistered dog, the only exception to this rule is the AKC or CKC. I love AAC agility, but I would also like to try NADAC!

Hey I found a really great discussion board on dogs it isSitstay Come check it out! there are tons of people all certifiably dog nutty and lots of agility folk as well!

What he heck is clicker training?


Ok. The sound of the clicker means abolutely nothing to the dog until it is paired with a treat, or a toy. What the click does is precisely marks the exact second the dog did the right thing. ITs like a camera click, it isolates and marks the exact second the dog was doing right.After you click then you give the dog a treat, the dog soon comes to understand that what he was doing when he heard the click sound earned him a reward. A basic rule of behavior states that anything that is reinforced is more likely to occur again, so when you reinforce the correct behavior with the click sound and a treat the dog figures that that worked and is more likely to repeat it. Th click is comparable to saying good dog, only the click is faster, and it sounds the same every time.

So for instance wiht your boxer and his jumping problem. What I would do is ignor his jumping. Simply step away and turn your back on him, he is looking for attention, so enven pushing him off or talking to him even if you are only telling him 'no' is rewarding to him. When you turn away keep one eye on him, though, and as soon as you see all four paws hit the floor, say YES!!in an upbeat sound(the yes word works as a clcik, its simply telling the dog that you liked when he put his paws on the floor) Then quickly follow the YES with a tasty treat such as a small peice of hot dog or cheese. Be consistent with this and he should get the idea.

It is my firm belief that everyone can learn how to train their dog. Its not mgic its just an understanding of how dogs learn, what motivates them, and how to apply this knowledge.

Does this help at all???? I'm going to provide you with a few books and links to get you started.

Clcikcing with your dog by Peggy Tillman is a wonderful starter book on clicker training.

You can get a compete starter clicker kit from Clicker Kit

Clicker Lessons is a great starter site complete with ltos of info and step by step lessons.

Hope some of this helps you!

Miranda

I have a wild type dog. She's part german shephard, basenji and some sort of spitz. She looks like a street dog, with a really fuzzy and double curled tail. Usually when my dog and I go for a walk, I bring a squeaky toy since she's is always in "hunt" and "sniff" mode.
so, at the end of the walk she hunts her toy, and carries it home.

When she pulls on the leash, instead of snapping the leash tight, I start walking in the opposite direction, and she follows me, this goes on and on, up and down the block. She forgets and pulls, I walk the other way ect. ect.
I also use a body harness so it doesn't pull on her neck. It pulls her whole body. THis way the weight of her pull is distributed evenly across her chest.
so far that's the only advice I have.

I need a few new tricks with my newest granddog, a Frenchie
My son and his wife are the proud parents of a 12 week old French Bull Dog. As a new grandmom (I prefer grandbitch, more doglike) I have encountered a few training failures with the tiny pooch. When he is in my care, he tends (as all puppies do) to chew on things, but the troublesome time comes when he latches on to my pant leg and will not let go. I have used a nose flick technique which scared the bejesus out of my viszla, and Springer Spaniel, but the little Frenchie loves it and just gets more animated, play growling and nipping like a demon. I don't want to encourage bad behaviour, it's almost funny since he only weighs about 8 pounds, but it won't be amusing as he gets bigger. Any ideas???? Prying his little teeth off my jeans will not always be the best answer, particularly when he darts back and clamps onto another part of my clothing, or misses and pinches the skin. (battered and bruised in Annapolis) glitterbag