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On the state of the US school sytem.

 
 
OGIONIK
 
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2008 05:51 pm
a judge says
"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue.

No wonder i didn't fit in. I WAS THERE TO LEARN.

good day.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 703 • Replies: 18
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engineer
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2008 06:12 pm
Link describing the recent California ruling and background.
0 Replies
 
Avatar ADV
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2008 06:12 pm
One points out that a certain amount of this kind of socialization is not only good, but laudable.

Essentially, it's important that students learn about our common values, the functioning of the system of government, and what have you; not just "these are the numbers of representatives from each state", but the hows and whys, the reasons and the history behind those systems. And, of course, the defects, though we do a pretty good job on those as it is...

Same for economics - it's not enough to say "capitalism good, dirty reds bad." The rationale behind the functioning of the economy is important too. It's okay if a kid graduates with a belief that material goods are not desirable - but it's not okay if that kid graduates thinking that Cuba is a worker's paradise where every need is fulfilled by the government. ;p

At the end of the day, it is -guaranteed- that these kids will be exposed to people who will tell them that the US is evil, that anything it supports is wrong, that any white man is an oppressor, that any other group is a victim, that there is no value in anything European or American culture has achieved in the last five hundred years. And if we've never bothered to tell them the reasons why all that is bullshit, plenty of people are going to believe it...
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2008 06:27 pm
Ogi - if you can't balance your checkbook, it's bad for soiety. If you can't get a job which supports you financially, it's bad for society. If you don't understand why we have the government we have (generally speaking), it's bad for society. You were there to learn.
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2008 08:02 pm
Schools should teach how to handle money, plain and simple.

they dont, im going to hazard a guess that if american citizens are better educated about how things work, the people invested will make less profit.


like me, im a genius. las vegas schools suck, do you know why? BECAUSE IF PEOPLE WERE SMART WE WOULDNT HAVE ANYONE TO CATER TO ALL THE TOURISTS.

and then you get people like me, who are almost genius.
who work the system however possible, the system is always right, so if i use the rules of the system, i am also right. right?

ive gambled close to a thousand dollars of my own money. my profits are almost in the 10 grand mark. (how much of a return is that? i want to say 900% but i suck at math hella) stupid people cant do that only through luck.

ive collected broken jewlery ( as well as alot of other stuff), and now im about to pull in 2 grand for free, maybe more i havent sorted it all out yet.

guess what! i dont have a job and im making more working for myself and recycling and refurbishing then anyone i know! and im a highscool dropout/graduate!

the school system failed (me) completely, but i most definitely didnt fail myself. and i just sit in astonishment at the levels of ignorance i see in the public.

maybe the schools are doing alright for other people, just not for me.

smart people make money, suckers spend money.

thats why america is full of suckers. just follow the money.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2008 08:36 pm
I'm not sure where you want this thread to go. It seems like you are bemoaning the quality of US public education. I think that is a very mixed bag since there is no such thing as "US" public education. Each county has it's own system and each state its own standards. If Las Vegas failed you, maybe the next county over would have been a better fit. I thought your original post was commenting on the statement that the judge made in the that CA case. If the judge had said "the" primary purpose is "to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," I might be with you, but he said "a primary purpose", just one of several. It seems a bit Orwellian, but I think I understand the intent and don't entirely disagree. Finally, there is the private schooling decision itself. That is a real game changer in California. Home schooling has been on the rise, especially in the South as people try to shield their children from society's influences, especially secular influences. I know families who would leave the state before allowing their students to be taught in public schools.
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H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 07:16 am
Government schools will be the downfall of this Republic.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 09:37 am
Yeah, right. So far, it's taken public schools two centuries to work the downfall of the republic, and they still haven't succeeded.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 11:57 am
Setanta wrote:
Yeah, right. So far, it's taken public schools two centuries to work the downfall of the republic, and they still haven't succeeded.


Things are happening a little faster in Government schools these days... they are the root of our downfall.
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 03:28 pm
they are, they teach everyone to be complacent with idiotic rhetoric

"no cell phones no this no that, wear a uniform"

they wnt the best of both worls, they want workers who are avstly intelligent and that do everything they are told regardless of pay or conitions.


slavery is illegal, and remember society and civilization used slavery as a foundation for centuries and centuries.

they need a new way to produce near-free labor. plain and simple.
but things dont work that way, eventually someone realizes people at the top are ripping everyone off, or just making altogether stupid decisions.

but yeah...... theres nothin i can do ill shutup now ;D
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 03:30 pm
H2O_MAN wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Yeah, right. So far, it's taken public schools two centuries to work the downfall of the republic, and they still haven't succeeded.


Things are happening a little faster in Government schools these days... they are the root of our downfall.


You're one of them guys who knows that someone is out to get him, ain'tcha?
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 03:32 pm
Setanta wrote:
H2O_MAN wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Yeah, right. So far, it's taken public schools two centuries to work the downfall of the republic, and they still haven't succeeded.


Things are happening a little faster in Government schools these days... they are the root of our downfall.


You're one of them guys who knows that someone is out to get him, ain'tcha?


You're one of those guys who hasn't got a clue aren't ya?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 03:35 pm
I have enough of a clue not to attribute the myriad and diverse ills of a society of more than 300,000,000 people to so simple-minded of an alleged source as the state of public schools. There are fifty states and several territories, and there are literally tens of thousands of school districts within those states and territories. Yet you think you can, with the broadest of brushes, paint them all black and sinister.

Yeah, right, you've got a clue, and nobody else does.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 03:51 pm
Just because you disagree with my point of view does not make yours valid.

Busting the teachers unions would be a step in the right direction because
they sure as hell don't give a flying fornication about this nations youth.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 04:30 pm
H2O_MAN wrote:
Just because you disagree with my point of view does not make yours valid.

Busting the teachers unions would be a step in the right direction because
they sure as hell don't give a flying fornication about this nations youth.
from broad brush to air gun, get the whole house done in 3 minutes. over-spray? what over-spray?
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 04:40 pm
Subject: SCHOOL -- 1957 vs. 2007

SCHOOL -- 1957 vs. 2007

Scenario: Jack goes quail hunting before school, pulls into school parking lot with shotgun in gun rack.
1957 - Vice Principal comes over, looks at Jack's shotgun, goes to his car and gets his shotgun to show Jack.
2007 - School goes into lock down, FBI called, Jack hauled off to jail and never sees his truck or gun again. Counsellors called in for traumatized students and teachers.

Scenario: Johnny and Mark get into a fistfight after school.
1957 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up buddies.
2 007 - Police called, SWAT team arrives, arrests Johnny and Mark. Charge them with assault, both expelled even though Johnny started it.

Scenario: Jeffrey won't be still in class, disrupts other students.
1957 - Jeffrey sent to office and given a good paddling by the Principal. Returns to class, sits still and does not disrupt class again.
2007 - Jeffrey given huge doses of Ritalin. Becomes a zombie. Tested for ADD. School gets extra money from state because Jeffrey has a disability.

Scenario: Billy breaks a window in his neighbour's car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.
1957 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college, and becomes a successful businessman.
2007 - Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy removed to foster care and joins a gang. State psychologist tells Billy's sister that she remembers being abused herself and their dad goes to prison. Billy's mom has affair with psychologist.

Scenario: Mark gets a headache and takes some aspirin to school.
1957 - Mark shares aspirin with Principal out on the smoking dock.
2007 - Police called, Mark expelled from school for drug violations. Car searched for drugs and weapons.

Scenario: Pedro fails high school English.
1957 - Pedro goes to summer school, passes English, goes to college.
2007 - Pedro's cause is taken up by state. Newspaper articles appear nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation is racist. ACLU files class action lawsuit against state school system a nd Pedro's English teacher. English banned from core curriculum. Pedro given diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he cannot speak English.

Scenario: Johnny takes apart leftover firecrackers from 4th of July, puts them in a model airplane pain t bottle, blows up a red ant bed.
1957 - Ants die.
2007 - BATF, Homeland Security, FBI called. Johnny charged with domestic terrorism, FBI investigates parents, siblings removed from home, computers confiscated, Johnny's Dad goes on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again.

Scenario: Johnny falls while running during recess and scrapes his knee. He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. Mary hugs him to comfort him.
1957 - In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing.
2007 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She faces 3 years in State Prison. Johnny undergoes 5 years of therapy.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 05:02 pm
au1929 wrote:
Subject: SCHOOL -- 1957 vs. 2007

SCHOOL -- 1957 vs. 2007

Scenario: Jack goes quail hunting before school, pulls into school parking lot with shotgun in gun rack.
1957 - Vice Principal comes over, looks at Jack's shotgun, goes to his car and gets his shotgun to show Jack.
2007 - School goes into lock down, FBI called, Jack hauled off to jail and never sees his truck or gun again. Counsellors called in for traumatized students and teachers.

Scenario: Johnny and Mark get into a fistfight after school.
1957 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up buddies.
2 007 - Police called, SWAT team arrives, arrests Johnny and Mark. Charge them with assault, both expelled even though Johnny started it.

Scenario: Jeffrey won't be still in class, disrupts other students.
1957 - Jeffrey sent to office and given a good paddling by the Principal. Returns to class, sits still and does not disrupt class again.
2007 - Jeffrey given huge doses of Ritalin. Becomes a zombie. Tested for ADD. School gets extra money from state because Jeffrey has a disability.

Scenario: Billy breaks a window in his neighbour's car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.
1957 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college, and becomes a successful businessman.
2007 - Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy removed to foster care and joins a gang. State psychologist tells Billy's sister that she remembers being abused herself and their dad goes to prison. Billy's mom has affair with psychologist.

Scenario: Mark gets a headache and takes some aspirin to school.
1957 - Mark shares aspirin with Principal out on the smoking dock.
2007 - Police called, Mark expelled from school for drug violations. Car searched for drugs and weapons.

Scenario: Pedro fails high school English.
1957 - Pedro goes to summer school, passes English, goes to college.
2007 - Pedro's cause is taken up by state. Newspaper articles appear nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation is racist. ACLU files class action lawsuit against state school system a nd Pedro's English teacher. English banned from core curriculum. Pedro given diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he cannot speak English.

Scenario: Johnny takes apart leftover firecrackers from 4th of July, puts them in a model airplane pain t bottle, blows up a red ant bed.
1957 - Ants die.
2007 - BATF, Homeland Security, FBI called. Johnny charged with domestic terrorism, FBI investigates parents, siblings removed from home, computers confiscated, Johnny's Dad goes on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again.

Scenario: Johnny falls while running during recess and scrapes his knee. He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. Mary hugs him to comfort him.
1957 - In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing.
2007 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She faces 3 years in State Prison. Johnny undergoes 5 years of therapy.
No matter how many times this gets posted around the web, it's still a crock of shi*t.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 05:06 pm
H2O_MAN wrote:
Just because you disagree with my point of view does not make yours valid.


You have no idea what my point of view on the educational system is. All that has gone on here is that i've pointed out what a crock it is to claim that as diverse an institution as public education is in the United States will cause the republic to founder.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 10:42 pm
Let me add here some quotes on the crisis in american schools written by folks who understand the present dilemma.

Quote:
"...more than eleven-twelveths of all the children in the reading-classes in our schools do not understand the meaning of the words they read."

"...the schools have retrograded within the last generation or half generation in regard to orthography"

"...neglectful school committees, incompetent teachers, and an indifferent public may go on degrading each other until..."


Quote:
"They [the elementary schools] are mainly in the hands of ignorant, unskilled teachers. The children are fed upon the mere husks of knowledge. They leave school for the broad theater of life without discipline; without mental power or moral stamina...They afford the sad spectacle of ignorance engaged in the stupendous fraud of self-perpetuation at the public expense...Hundres of our American schools are little less than undisciplined juvenile mobs."


Quote:
"When we were boys, boys had to do a little work in school. They were not coaxed; they were hammered. Spelling, writing and arithmetic were not electives, and you had to learn. In these more fortunate times, elementary education has become in many places a vaudevile show. The child must be kept amused, and learns what he pleases."



That first group of quotes is from Horace Mann, written in 1867.
The second is from William Franklin, written in 1870.
The last is from Joseph Rice, written in 1892.
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