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Theists cannot be selfless

 
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 09:53 am
I have judged no one. The Word of God judges.

That verse is talking about judging hypocritically. There is also a verse in the Bible that says we who are spiritual judge all things. We discern what is right and wrong according to the Bible.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 01:32 pm
Thanks, Arella Mae. Smile
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kate4christ03
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 03:39 pm
arella is correct. the bible is clear that while we aren't to act hypocritically like the pharisees, we are to discern between right and wrong and stand against sin. And Christ even said to rebuke(with love) our brothers and sisters who sin. Also we have to be willing to heed righteous rebuke when we are sinning. The bible even gives instructions on church discipline. There is a difference between judging righteously, according to Jesus' instructions, and being a judgemental hypocrite.

sorry to anyone i haven't responded to in a while, I have had the flu.
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 04:00 pm
Quote:
There is also a difference between judging and judgement. What you refer to as discernment is still judging.

May I point out that accepting that a person says they are gay is not ?'judging' - it is accepting what they say, or accepting who they are. Nor is saying ?'the bible says God hates those that engage in homosexual acts' judging - it is repeating/informing what the bible says. What ?'judging' is - is the judgement behind the words when the words are said (if said judgment exists).

If a person admits to homosexual acts, and I said "You have attracted Gods hate because you engaged in homosexual acts" that would be biblically correct (I just don't think the bible itself is correct here). There is no judgement, it is a statement of 'fact' based on the ?'word of God'. Judgement can occur in the attitude behind the words.

Quote:
Sorry it took me so long to get back to you vikkor. No I don't observe the Sabbath. That commandment is not repeated in the New Testament. I go to church on Sunday.


Hey, no problem about the length of time. I've been rather busy. As for not being repeated in the NT - neither are the commandments not to lie, kill, sleep with another mans wife etc. Of course, I guess you could say those are repeated in the two greatest commandments given by Jesus (he did talk like the others were still valid).

From what you've written, would I be right to say that because you believe the NT to complete the OT, then any rules / commandments found in the OT must be repeated to still be valid?

I've heard the NT completes the OT saying before, but I've never actually seen (or asked for) the scriptural basis for it. If you know off the top of your head, I would be interested to know.

……………..
As a point of interest relating to the line of questioning - there's a troublesome verse in Malachi (I think it's malachi) where the bible says "I am the lord thy God, I change not". It's troublesome when applied to many topics of change, in this case - the changing of laws. The only reasoning I can think of for a God that doesn't change, but changes rules is ?'the rules change, the principle does not'…which is one of the reasons the principles of rules/laws is what has always truly interested me.

Read in conjunction with the above text, I'm trying to work out the basis for what you mean when you say ?'the laws are the laws' - because according to yourself, they can obviously change, and the ?'laws are no longer the laws', or ?'the laws are the laws, but can and have changed'. Presumably you mean "Only the NT laws are the laws" (I guess I'm also trying to comprehend your view against mine of 'the laws are the principles')

As for the change to the Sabbath day - the main argument I've heard for the changing of said day, in differing variations, is that it was changed to reflect Jesus rising from the dead. I've never found a particularly good answer from the people I've asked - it has always appeared to be based on texts that allow a wide degree of interpretation. Perhaps the NT completes the OT can provide a decent answer.

Quote:
It doesn't matter what man or science says about homosexuality. I believe God's word. Homosexuality is wrong in God's eyes according to the Bible. But that is between the person and God, not me. The farthest I will go with it is to say what the Bible says about it. I don't treat people harshly because of their sexual orientation, etc.

Fair enough I guess, for it appears that, from yourself, no harm comes of such.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 07:22 pm
Hey kate! I'm so glad you are feeling better. That flu this year was horrible. Hubby and I both had it earlier.

Vikkor I'll work on explaining the NT completes the OT and get back to that. You have, in my opinion, a very good grasp of the difference between judgment and discernment. I find that extrmely beneficial when discussing issues such as we are.


Quote:
ONE: Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

TWO: 1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.
Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

THREE: 1 Timothy 6:1 ... that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

FOUR: Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mark 2:27-28 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

FIVE: Matthew 19:19 Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Ephesians 6:1-3 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

SIX: Romans 13:9 Thou shalt not kill

SEVEN: Romans 13:9 ... Thou shalt not commit adultery.

EIGHT: Romans 13:9 ... Thou shalt not steal.

NINE: Romans 13:9 ... Thou shalt not bear false witness.

TEN: Romans 13:9 ... Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 07:39 pm
vikkor,

I found this on one of my favorite sites for questions about the Bible (www.gotquestions.org). I sincerely hope this helps. It explains it much better than I could ever hope to.


Quote:
The Old Testament lays the foundation for the teachings and events found in the New Testament. The Bible is a progressive revelation. If you skip the first half of any good book and try to finish it, you will have a hard time understanding the characters, the plot, and the ending. In the same way, the New Testament is only completely understood when it is seen as a fulfillment of the events, characters, laws, sacrificial system, covenants, and promises of the Old Testament.

If we only had the New Testament, we would come to the gospels and not know why the Jews were looking for a Messiah (a Savior King). Without the Old Testament, we would not understand why this Messiah was coming (see Isaiah 53), and we would not have been able to identify Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah through the many detailed prophecies that were given concerning Him, e.g., His birth place (Micah 5:2); His manner of death (Psalm 22, especially vv. 1,7-8, 14-18; Psalm 69:21, etc.), His resurrection (Psalm 16:10), and many more details of His ministry (Isaiah 52:19f.; 9:2, etc.).

Without the Old Testament, we would not understand the Jewish customs that are mentioned in passing in the New Testament. We would not understand the perversions that the Pharisees had made to God's law as they added their traditions to it. We would not understand why Jesus was so upset as He cleansed the temple courtyard. We would not understand that we can make use of the same wisdom that Christ used in His many replies to His adversaries (both human and demonic).

In a similar fashion, the New Testament Gospels and Acts of the Apostles record many of the fulfillments of prophecies that were recorded hundreds of years earlier in the Old Testament. Many of these relate to the first coming of the Messiah. In the circumstances of Jesus' birth, life, miracles, death, and resurrection as found in the Gospels, we find the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies that relate to the Messiah's first coming. It is these details that validate Jesus' claim to be the promised Christ. And even the prophecies in the New Testament (many of which are in the book of Revelation) are built upon earlier prophecies found in Old Testament books. These New Testament prophecies relate to events surrounding the second coming of Christ. Roughly two out of three verses in Revelation are based on Old Testament verses.

Both the Old and New Testaments contain numerous lessons for us through the lives of its many fallible characters who possessed the same nature as we do today. By observing their lives we can be encouraged to trust God no matter what (Daniel 3) and to not compromise in the little things (Daniel 1) so that we will be faithful later in the big things (Daniel 6). We can learn that it is best to confess sin early and sincerely instead of shifting blame (1 Samuel 15). We can learn not to play with sin, it will find us out and its bite is deadly (See Judges 13-16).

We can learn that we need to trust and obey God if we expect to experience His "promised land" living in this life and His paradise in the next (Numbers 13). We learn that if we contemplate sin, we are only setting ourselves up for committing it (Genesis 3; Joshua 6-7). We learn that our sin has consequences not only for ourselves but for our loved ones around us and conversely that our good behavior has reward for us and those around us as well (Genesis 3; Exodus 20:5-6). In the New Testament, we have the example of Peter to learn from?-that we dare not trust our own strength or we WILL fail (Matthew 26:33-41). In the words of the thief on the cross, we see that it is through simple, sincere faith that we are saved from our sin (Luke 23:39-43). We also see what a vital New Testament church should look like (Acts 2:41-47; 13:1-3, etc.).

Also, because the revelation in Scripture is progressive, the New Testament brings into focus teachings that were only alluded to in the Old Testament. The book of Hebrews describes how Jesus is the true High Priest and His one sacrifice replaces all of the sacrifices that were mere portrayals of that sacrifice. The Old Testament gives the Law which has two parts: the commandments and the blessing/curse that comes from obedience or disobedience to those commands. The New Testament clarifies that God gave those commandments to show men their need of salvation and were never intended to be a means of salvation (Romans 3:19).

The Old Testament describes the sacrificial system God gave the Israelites to temporarily cover their sins. The New Testament clarifies that this system was an allusion to the sacrifice of Christ through whom alone salvation is found (Acts 4:12; Hebrews 10:4-10). The Old Testament saw paradise lost; the New Testament shows how paradise was regained for mankind through the second Adam (Christ) and how it will one day be restored. The Old Testament declares that man was separated from God through sin (Genesis 3), and the New Testament declares that man can now be restored in his relationship to God (Romans 3-6). The Old Testament predicted the Messiah's life. The Gospels primarily record Jesus' life, and the Epistles interpret His life and how we are to respond to all He has done and will do.

Again, while the New Testament is the "clearer" picture, the Old Testament is nonetheless important. Beside laying the foundation for the New Testament, without the Old Testament we would not have a basis for standing against the error of the politically correct perversions of our society in which evolution is seen to be the creator of all of the species over millions of years (instead of their being the result of special creation by God in a literal six days). We would buy the lie that marriages and the family unit are an evolving structure that should continue to change as society changes (instead of being seen as a design by God for the purpose of raising up godly children and for the protection of those who would otherwise be used and abused?-most often women and children).

Likewise, without the Old Testament we would not understand the promises God will yet fulfill to the Jewish nation. As a result, we would not properly see that the Tribulation period is a seven-year period in which He will specifically be working with the Jewish nation who rejected His first coming but who will receive Him at His second coming. We would not understand how Christ's future 1,000-year reign fits in with His promises to the Jews, nor how we as Gentiles will fit in. Nor would we see how the end of the Bible ties up the loose ends that were unraveled in the beginning of the Bible, restoring the paradise that God originally created this world to be in which we would enjoy close companionship with Him on a personal basis as in the Garden of Eden.

In summary, the Old Testament lays the foundation for, and was meant to prepare the Israelites for, the coming of the Messiah who would sacrifice Himself for their sins (and for the sins of the world as well). The New Testament shares the life of Jesus Christ and then looks back on what He did and how we are to respond to His gift of eternal life and live our lives in gratitude for all He has done for us (Romans 12). Both testaments reveal the same holy, merciful, and righteous God who must condemn sin but who desires to bring to Himself a fallen human race of sinners through the forgiveness only possible through Christ's atoning sacrifice as payment for sin. In both testaments God reveals Himself to us and how we are to come to Him through Jesus Christ. And in both testaments we find all we need for eternal life and godly living (2 Timothy 3:15-17).

http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-old-new-testaments.html
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Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 07:57 pm
Arella Mae wrote:
I have judged no one. The Word of God judges.

That verse is talking about judging hypocritically. There is also a verse in the Bible that says we who are spiritual judge all things. We discern what is right and wrong according to the Bible.


You are right on that, Arella Mae.

Malachi 3:18: "Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not."
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 08:09 pm
Hi Arella,

Thanks for both the Ten Commandment quotes in the NT, and for the post on the NT completes the OT.

In relation to the last - It seems I already knew most all of it, for there was nothing in there that particularly surprised me. What I still don't quite understand though, is why you think such 'completion' invalidates the Ten Commandments?

By that I mean, there were certainly prophesies completed in the NT, and the OT helps explain the NT, but I didn't see anything that said 'the OT is now no longer to be followed'....so the way you have used "The NT completes the OT" saying (to say words to the effect of - any of the ten commandments not repeated are invalid) - that seems to have a philosophical ring to it, rather than scriptural.

As for the Sabbath day, in the end, I'm not overly concerned by it (as of course, I'm not Christian). The reason I've asked specifically about it, is it is the one commandment out of the Ten Commandments that has dissappeared from Christian life - the rest remain (yet people still retain a 'sabbath day' of sorts - a day of worship). And of course, there is the matter of God not changing, yet this one thing changing (as I said previously, troublesome verse)
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kate4christ03
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 08:19 pm
Quote:
As for the change to the Sabbath day - the main argument I've heard for the changing of said day, in differing variations, is that it was changed to reflect Jesus rising from the dead. I've never found a particularly good answer from the people I've asked - it has always appeared to be based on texts that allow a wide degree of interpretation. Perhaps the NT completes the OT can provide a decent answer.


The thing is that in the ot before Christ died, the jews were under the old covenant. And being under the old covenant they had to follow the 316 laws given by God, the saturday sabbath being one of those. The ot does foretell of a time after the Messiah comes, when God would give a new covenant. When Christ died for our sins, a new covenant was ushered in. One where people who follow God arent under the law anymore but under grace. Some good examples of this is 1. acts 15 when paul, james and barnabas said that gentiles didnt have to keep the law 2. the whole book of hebrews which shows that we are under a new covenant now.
The saturday sabbath as i stated earlier was a jewish law. After Christ rose from the grave(on sunday) the new test church came together to worship on that day in remembrance of the Resurrection(acts shows this). THis is why christians today worship on sunday.

now in no way does this make the ot obsolete. The whole point of the law was to point out mans sins and show the need for a Savior.
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 08:40 pm
Kate, if I remember from Acts, it certainly does show the apostles at the synagogue on Sunday (and Saturday)...and nowhere in it (or anywhere in the Bible) does it claim Sunday is the new day of worship. If you look at Arella's previous post, you will see the the disciples talking about the sabbath day as if it still existed.

You will also find that Jesus said he didn't come to destroy the law (can something be any clearer?) but to fulfill it (this can't mean destroy, because he already says that's not the case) - which If I remember right, can also mean in ancient hebrew/greek 'uphold'.

The biblical teaching that we are under grace and not the law, does not invalidate the law - sin among other things is the breaking of the law, and grace is what saves us...therefore we are 'not under the law'. The law is what caused the fall of Adam and Eve, grace (and the sacrifice of Christ) is what saved his descendants.

Have to run off to work now.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Mar, 2008 09:23 pm
vikkor,

I don't recall saying that the NT invalidates the Ten Commandments. What I have stated is the dietary laws are done away with.
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Mar, 2008 06:31 am
My apologies then, I haven't seen your comment about dietary laws, and I did see this one :

Quote:
No I don't observe the Sabbath. That commandment is not repeated in the New Testament.


Which is what gave me the impression you believed the Ten Commandments had been changed / invalidated or some such.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Mar, 2008 07:47 am
I can see how you could have gotten that impression from what I said. So I'll be more clarifying next time. Laughing
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