Theists cannot be selfless

The Bible is out of date in a whole series of different ways, which makes those who slavishly try to follow it out of date as well. This is not good for man, as we must live as things are, not how they used to be. The book is still useful, as there is a lot of truth in it, but when it is read literally it can not help but to be the wrong instrument for the job.

Alan Watts used to say, and I agree with this, that the only hope for Christianity was to move towards the mystical, to read the bible as a mystical tool. He said that the only way to salvage Christianity is to find out what parts of it still resonate in the hearts of men, and to build on that. That we need to use personal experience as the screen, to filter out the dead parts of the religion. We have never done this, so the death process continues. Christianity is now mostly dead in Europe, and is well on its way in America. A lot of people still claim to be Christians, but the identity and the knowledge of the Christian way are mostly so shallow in men that it can not be said to be real.

To get back to the self, with no religion around to guide us, we have no choice but to be strong of self. We have no trusty guide, we must get through life and figure out what is true by way of our own wits. There is a lot of spirituality in the air though, a lot of experimenting with the remnants of the dying religions (both of the east and west), so in some ways this is a very exciting time to be alive.

0 Replies

The Bible is out of date? Shocked

And so are the people that follow it? Shocked

Wow! You mean don't lie, don't steal, don't murder, don't sleep with someone else's spouse, honor your parents, etc., are out of date?

Excuse me? Shocked

Just what are you teaching your kids! Shocked

0 Replies

Arella Mae wrote:

The Bible is out of date? And so are the people that follow it? Wow! You mean don't lie, don't steal, don't murder, don't sleep with someone else's spouse, honor your parents, etc., are out of date?

Excuse me?
Just what are you teaching your kids!

They are good Catholics actually. My wife is a Catholic now, though she was brought up Eastern Orthodox. The Catholics don't take the Bible all that seriously as a literal word, so I am very happy with my kids religious education.

0 Replies

Quote:

They are good Catholics actually. My wife is a Catholic now, though she was brought up Eastern Orthodox. The Catholics don't take the Bible all that seriously as a literal word, so I am very happy with my kids religious education.

Perhaps you should change that to Catholics you know don't take it all that seriously? I know plenty of Catholics that take it very seriously.

So let's see. The Bible is out of date except for those that don't take it all that seriously?

And just how does Catholics don't............. address my comments?

0 Replies

Arella Mae wrote:

Quote:
They are good Catholics actually. My wife is a Catholic now, though she was brought up Eastern Orthodox. The Catholics don't take the Bible all that seriously as a literal word, so I am very happy with my kids religious education.

Perhaps you should change that to Catholics you know don't take it all that seriously? I know plenty of Catholics that take it very seriously.

So let's see. The Bible is out of date except for those that don't take it all that seriously?

And just how does Catholics don't............. address my comments?

A Catholic's creed is not up to the individual, it is what the Vatican says it is, so what the Catholics you or I know do or believe as individuals is besides the point. We are far afield of the thread topic....do you have a point other than to bust my chops??? I have no desire to fight with you.....unless you have something to say on topic we are done.

0 Replies

I'm not trying to bust your chops hawkeye. I am merely trying to discuss something you posted.

0 Replies

I would point out Arella, that Hawkeye didn't say everything about the Bible was out of date, just that he believed a whole series of things in it were...and he also previously mentioned that the bible is still valuable for certain things.

Picking obvious things out like don't lie etc is hardly curious about what his point is. Perhaps you can ask him for examples (of what he means) if you wish to discuss it.

0 Replies

Vikorr,

I can accept that and thank you for pointing that out.

Hawkeye,

Can you please elaborate on exactly what it is in the Bible you believe to be out of date? I would appreciate it.

0 Replies

Arella Mae wrote:

Vikorr,

I can accept that and thank you for pointing that out.

Hawkeye,

Can you please elaborate on exactly what it is in the Bible you believe to be out of date? I would appreciate it.

There are in my view three main weakness in the bible.

a) all of the good living stuff that has nothing to do with current reality...no pork, procreate as much as possible, homosexuality,...the list in very long. All of that has nothing to do with the spirituality, it dates the bible, and makes it difficult to take it seriously. All of that needs to go away

b) the bible is mostly a masculine energy book, it does not take feminine energy seriously. This causes a who range of problems, but the most serious is that it directs Christians to be overly masculine. There has been for a long time too much masculinity in the west, it is the cause of women being treated poorly, the assault on the environment, the always trying to jam square pegs into round holes. Christian culture does not know when to leave things alone, does not care enough about the health of living beings and of society. Modern Christians are moving towards including the feminine into their lives, and can do so even with the flawed Bible, but if Christianity wants to stay relevant this biblical flaw needs to be fixed.

C) the bible is simply too old. Myths are not static, they change over time. They are now changing rapidly because living in technical civilization has divorced man for the cycles of the earth that before now man has always followed and identified with. The analogizes and metaphors no longer speak to man like they once did. This is complicated by the fact that the bible was never intended to be a form of direct transmission, it was always supposed to be taught by an expert. Very seldom now does the reader take away from the bible the intended message. We can read the words as translated onto its third language, we think we know what the words mean, but the original message has been lost. We have 2000 years of church doctrine to help, but the church has fractured onto a 1000 denominations all with a different view of what the bible means, so post reformation we have lost any sense of having a dependable translation of the bible. The fracturing of the church goes to prove that the bible has lost so much power that it is now possible to read whatever you want into it. The Bible is revered by the Christians even as it has turned to dust over time. Had the bible been relegated to a historical document and been superseded by something that speaks to modern man Christianity might have lived on, instead the religion dies with the book it clings to.

0 Replies

a. God's word is eternal. It's never going to just go away. Man changes over time, God does not. Oh, and the dietary laws are no longer in effect with the New Testament.

b. I am going to make an assumption here. I take it you are thinking, at least in part, of "the wife should submit to her husband" scripture? People leave the rest of that out. It's "as he submits to Jesus Christ", meaning if he is living his life as he should be and following God's will, he's going to be making the correct decisions. I can't say that I know any Christian men that are overly masculine. I am sure there are some but I don't think the majority carrying the masculine thing to extremes like Islam men do.

c. God's word will never be too old according to God. It's man that finds it out of date because man changes over time. God does not. The basic message of the Bible is just as it always has been. Believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and do the will of God. All the denominations come about when someone somewhere wants to do something a bit differently than what the Bible actually states.

0 Replies

Hi Arella,

I know your post is for Hawkeye to answer, but I would like to make some observations.

Firstly, this particular subject touches on one of the reasons I am no longer Christian. That is, because certain laws change over time, it is obvious (to me) that, God's laws should be a matter of principle, not rule (ie with many of the given laws - said law at any particular time in history may be related to the times, culture, and environment...and is related to a principle...so the times etc can change, making the rule redundant, but not the principle)

Quote:

a. God's word is eternal. It's never going to just go away. Man changes over time, God does not. Oh, and the dietary laws are no longer in effect with the New Testament.

You do understand you just said "God's rule changed"?

On the same note, I would like to point out that the vast majority of Christians worship God on Sunday. The many justifications I've heard for it seem rather flimsy at best...but if so, it's another rule that's changed.

Then there are the previously mentioned sanitation laws given to the the Israelites (in deuteronomy if I remember right), and others also.

Quote:

b. I am going to make an assumption here. I take it you are thinking, at least in part, of "the wife should submit to her husband" scripture? People leave the rest of that out. It's "as he submits to Jesus Christ", meaning if he is living his life as he should be and following God's will, he's going to be making the correct decisions. I can't say that I know any Christian men that are overly masculine. I am sure there are some but I don't think the majority carrying the masculine thing to extremes like Islam men do.

Do you know many christian women who believe in this? It seems to me that this is largely, if not almost completely discarded by Christianity (which isn't a bad thing). The wording isn't "If you think he submits to Christ to your way of liking"...(and I haven't looked this up, because it doesn't really interest me, so going by your posting it is) submit to him, as he submits to Christ...which means if 'he loves Christ and submits his life to him', the wife is to submit to the husband.

Quote:

c. God's word will never be too old according to God.

Quote:

It's man that finds it out of date because man changes over time.

I would disagree entirely, seeing as rules (ie Gods word) have changed over time in the Bible itself. And seeing as God says he changes not, the only possible explanation (from a Christian perspective) is the 'rule' changes, the 'principle' doesn't.

Quote:

All the denominations come about when someone somewhere wants to do something a bit differently than what the Bible actually states.

May I ask how you came to this conclusion?

For myself, because I'm curious, I've talked to many different denominations, including JH's, Mormons, Catholics, SDA's, Uniting Church, vaguely Baptist and Presbyterian, plus some that I didn't ask their church...and all have had numerous bible texts to quote as to why they believe a certain thing...they believe this is asked of them by God.

0 Replies

Arella Mae wrote:

a. God's word is eternal. It's never going to just go away. Man changes over time, God does not. Oh, and the dietary laws are no longer in effect with the New Testament.

b. I am going to make an assumption here. I take it you are thinking, at least in part, of "the wife should submit to her husband" scripture? People leave the rest of that out. It's "as he submits to Jesus Christ", meaning if he is living his life as he should be and following God's will, he's going to be making the correct decisions. I can't say that I know any Christian men that are overly masculine. I am sure there are some but I don't think the majority carrying the masculine thing to extremes like Islam men do.

c. God's word will never be too old according to God. It's man that finds it out of date because man changes over time. God does not. The basic message of the Bible is just as it always has been. Believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and do the will of God. All the denominations come about when someone somewhere wants to do something a bit differently than what the Bible actually states.

A) Man changes, God must speak to man as he is, not the men who lived 2000+ years ago. The bible no longer works, if God wants man to follow He better get a new prophet down here PDQ.

B) Feminine is life energy, masculine controls and directs that energy. The Bible is all about control, controlling ourselves and our environment. The planet earth can not take much more of our control, we are killing the planet that supports us because we would rather keep trying to bend the environment to suit our wants then promote the health of the environment. Take this example to all of human life....this is what the masculine Bible (and Koran) have led us to. We know a path we are taking is bad for humans, we know this a 1000 different ways, and we just keep going.

The problem of men keeping women in chains is a part of the problem, it is not the whole problem. Somebody needs to lead in a relationship, and it should be men, the bible is right about that, but men took it way too far, because the Bible is a bad teacher. The Bible does not respect the Femenine, and real live men have not repected real live women as a direct result. For way too long men thought that they could do whatever they wanted, that women do not matter. This was way wrong. Now we have over corrected and mostly believe that men and women are the same (an insane statement in light of all of the evidence going the other way) or that men and women are or should be equal at their ability to provide good direction. No, you do not wash away thousand of years of genetic coding because you get it in your head that men and women should be equal. Genetics and thus brain chemestry change very slowly....check back in a few thousand years..if we make it that long.

C) see A

0 Replies

What don't y'all get about God is the ultimate authority and what He says goes? Now, I know some of you don't believe that and that's between you and whomever. But God's laws are God's laws. Man changes, yes. But, just because man "thinks" he is evolving or growing into a certain direction (such as tolerance to homosexuality) it doesn't mean spit to God. Thems just the facts!

Some denominations such as Church of Christ, take a couple of scriptures and built a doctrine around it, i.e., you must be baptized to be saved and no musical instruments in the church.

As far as the feminine energy thing? What the heck does that mean? Feminine energy? If a man is following Christ as he should then he will make the right decisions according to God. If he is doing this, then yes, the woman should submit to her husband.

I am on my way to bed. I have to get up at 5:00am now that I'm back in the workforce. I'll check in probably on my lunch hour. If I failed to address something, please let me know.

Good night and God bless.

0 Replies

Quote:

What don't y'all get about God is the ultimate authority and what He says goes?

Hi Arella - I think you will find some who believe in "God" do not believe the bible to be fully inspired word of God, nor the complete word of God, nor the emphatic purveyor of Gods will.

Personally I like to believe in God, but the God I see, feel, and experience in an of this world - I do not find that God to be the God described by the Bible.

I like the Bible in many respects, and I also disagree with the bible in with regards to many aspects of it. I think the world & nature is a much more important teacher of who God is, than the bible is. To me, the final word is written into this world. As such, for me, if the bible disagrees with it, then it is wrong.

Quote:

Now, I know some of you don't believe that and that's between you and whomever. But God's laws are God's laws.

May I ask whether or not you observe the Sabbath day? The one in the Ten Commandments that is.

Quote:

Man changes, yes. But, just because man "thinks" he is evolving or growing into a certain direction (such as tolerance to homosexuality) it doesn't mean spit to God. Thems just the facts!

I don't know that people think we are evolving all that much (not noticably so, except for living longer lives, which doesn't seem so much evolution as other factors), nor 'growing' in a certain direction, as opposed to scientifically and culturally moving towards a certain perspective.

In relation to homosexuality - scientists say the sexual preference is written into human Genes. If so, then God created it that way, so he's hardly going to hate what he created, and would be a hypocrite if he did. The way I see it, the 'God inspired' writers of the bible got it wrong in an age ignorant of such things.

As a side note : We may mean something to God, and God also means something to us. The reason God means something to you, is because you see meaning in God. If you didn't see meaning in God then he would be meaningless. Put another way : something you see meaning in - that is meaningful to you - whether or not it is relevant and meaningful to God. As such, something may not "mean spit to God" and still 'means spit to us'.

0 Replies

I guess theists can be behaviorally unselfish, but they cannot be ontologically self-LESS. Their belief in a God that is separate from them forms the basis for their sense of ego or self-NESS. But an atheist can suffer the same malady if he feels himself to be an ego standing apart from and surrounded by a purely natural universe.

0 Replies

I guess theists can be behaviorally unselfish, but they cannot be ontologically self-LESS. Their belief in a God that is separate from them forms a basis for their sense of ego or self-NESS. But an atheist can suffer the same malady if he feels himself to be an ego standing apart from and surrounded by a purely natural universe.

0 Replies

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you vikkor. No I don't observe the Sabbath. That commandment is not repeated in the New Testament. I go to church on Sunday.

It doesn't matter what man or science says about homosexuality. I believe God's word. Homosexuality is wrong in God's eyes according to the Bible. But that is between the person and God, not me. The farthest I will go with it is to say what the Bible says about it. I don't treat people harshly because of their sexual orientation, etc.

I believe the Bible is God-inspired and God-breathed. I believe it's the ultimate authority.

Hey JL! So good to see you!

0 Replies

Arella Mae wrote:

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you vikkor. No I don't observe the Sabbath. That commandment is not repeated in the New Testament. I go to church on Sunday.

It doesn't matter what man or science says about homosexuality. I believe God's word. Homosexuality is wrong in God's eyes according to the Bible. But that is between the person and God, not me. The farthest I will go with it is to say what the Bible says about it. I don't treat people harshly because of their sexual orientation, etc.

I believe the Bible is God-inspired and God-breathed. I believe it's the ultimate authority.

Hey JL! So good to see you!

Hi Arella,
I am just curious as to your comment about the Sabbath not being repeated in the New Testament. In your opinion, does the New Testament replace the Old Testament or does it complete it?

Secondly, if God tells us that homosexuality is wrong and you go completely with what is written in the bible and that God is the ultimate authority....how can you say that you don't treat people harshly because of their sexual orientation etc? Do you mean that you are against them, but you do not outwardly indicate it? Or, you do mean that you accept them even though you feel that God is against them?

I am just curious. For the record, I do not outwardly or inwardly have anything against those who are homosexual. Why? Because God also tells us not to judge. I have known many people who are not straight and I see them as friends and people and not how or who they choose to love. I hope this does not influence your answer.

0 Replies

The New Testament completes the Old.

What I mean by I do not treat them harshly is I treat them with civility and respect, just as I do other people. If asked, I will tell them what the Bible says about homosexuality but I cannot condemn anyone.

There is a difference between discernment and judgment. Many consider discernment judging but it is not. Judgment implies punishment. Punishment is God's job, not mine.

0 Replies

Arella Mae wrote:

The New Testament completes the Old.

What I mean by I do not treat them harshly is I treat them with civility and respect, just as I do other people. If asked, I will tell them what the Bible says about homosexuality but I cannot condemn anyone.

There is a difference between discernment and judgment. Many consider discernment judging but it is not. Judgment implies punishment. Punishment is God's job, not mine.

There is also a difference between judging and judgement. What you refer to as discernment is still judging.

"Judge not lest ye be judged" Matthew 7

0 Replies

Theists cannot be selfless

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know