Theists cannot be selfless

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kate,
Hmmm... well if it's not scriptural then it's certainly implied. I've sat through enough sermons to know that. Maybe that's not what you belief, but it's certainly what most other people believe.

no its not. your wrong. How many sermons have you sat through and in how many different churches in each denomination within christianity? you can't tell me you have been all through usa and sat through the majority of protestant churches and heard this. THis is not taught by those that believe scripture. And as i already stated , following what neo wrote, yes there are theists that do good deeds for selfish reasons and as neo pointed out, Christ called them hypocrites. But in the majority of christianity, goods deeds are not taught as a basis of salvation. Your opinion on theists vs atheists is incorrect. ITs like Arella was saying, anyone can be selfish or selfless, regardless of their beliefs.

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You just made me lose the little remaining respect I had for the Bible. Well done.

why? because i gave scriptural evidence discrediting your belief that christians do good deeds for salvation.

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I thought I explained my theory in the first paragraph. It's not like a biological theory - I can't provide evidence. You choose to reject or accept it, but don't ask for evidence.

its not even a theory, its just one opinion that has sunk under the tiniest scrutiny.

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hawkeye relax. Extermination of our race would be best for every other organism and the Earth itself. The pleasure of our existence is irrelevent.

Reading between the lines, you might have realised that I am not seriously proposing mass suicide. That is obviously not going to happen. Working on ourselves, as Arella Mae says, would be better.

Thanks Arella.

kate,
Your questions are irrelevent. One does not have to have been to a garbage tip to know that it smells.

No, the fact that the Bible preaches faith over good deeds. I thought that was obvious.

Ok now you're just getting emotional.

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kate,
Your questions are irrelevent. One does not have to have been to a garbage tip to know that it smells.

my questions are not irrelevant. You gave an opinion, that you proport as theory. Yet you have no proof, no evidence and when given verses that contradict what you claim christianity teaches, you say " i thought that was obvious" It is obvious. Christianity as a whole doesnt teach deeds as a basis of salvation or favortism from God. You claim to have been to enough churches to know that the preachers preach good deeds as a basis of salvation. I called your bluff.

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Ok now you're just getting emotional.

actually im not. I just honestly think your opinion is wrong.

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aperson wrote:

The problem IS IN the people

And what problem is that?

Remember, if you buy into evolution that all of man's nature is the product of evolution.

Since evolution is 'directionless', it cannot 'make a mistake'.

So exactly what do you mean?

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kate,
You have an opinion and I accept that. The Bible says a lot of things, most contidictory. And since the Bible is very hard to decifer (metaphor, truth, BS), the best way to get a view of what Christians believe is not to look in the Bible, but look at the actual Christians themselves (a mind-boggling concept I know).

real life,
If you want to discuss the evolution and your points, please create another thread, and I will join you there.

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I realized something the other day:

Only atheists can be truly selfless.

aperson,

You are absolutely correct as far as the concept of a deity "seperate from self" is concerned such as that promoted by monotheism.

In the case of "holistic spirituality", such as that promoted by Eastern religions, "enlightenment" might consist of the illusory "self" dissipating as part of a "universal consciousness" which some might call "God". However this "God" concept bears no similarity to the anthropocentric version which "atheists" reject.

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Indeed. Some people are constantly warping their definition of God to stand up to criticism. While certain definitions avoid certain criticisms, no definition stands up to all.

Btw I thought you were an "atheist".

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fresco wrote:

You are absolutely correct as far as the concept of a deity "seperate from self" is concerned such as that promoted by monotheism.

In the case of "holistic spirituality", such as that promoted by Eastern religions, "enlightenment" might consist of the illusory "self" dissipating as part of a "universal consciousness" which some might call "God". However this "God" concept bears no similarity to the anthropocentric version which "atheists" reject.

Not really, a person who has a deep personal relationship with God knows that God flows through him, he is but an instrument for the hand of God. This person can be as selfless and a Atheist can be.

Secondly, God is not much different then Zen's Suchness, what I call energy is transformed by Christians into God's doings, but in every way they are the same but for one.....Christians believe that God creates what is, Zennists believe that what is is, we neither know nor does it matter if there is a source.

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It always amuses me that people talking of 'selflessness' talk from the self...including those that don't believe in self.

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You refering to me now?

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aperson wrote:

real life wrote:
aperson wrote:
The problem IS IN the people

And what problem is that?

Remember, if you buy into evolution that all of man's nature is the product of evolution.

Since evolution is 'directionless', it cannot 'make a mistake'.

So exactly what do you mean?

real life,
If you want to discuss the evolution and your points, please create another thread, and I will join you there.

The topic is 'selflessness' and 'selfishness' , is it not?

You claim that the 'problem' is IN people. I take that to mean the problem of selfishness. Correct me if I read you wrong.

Why is it a 'problem' to you if it is simply a result of evolution?

Isn't it something that should simply be accepted if we have 'evolved' that way?

After all, if selfishness is a result of our genetic makeup, all the talk in the world won't change it.

And why should we even try?

Aren't we supposed to accept evolution and it's consequences?

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Hi Aperson, I'm not sure if the question in your last post was meant for me.

If so, no, I was referring to any number of posts.

That said, I don't think complete selflessness exists, and if it did, the person would be a complete slave. I have my doubts that even temporary selflessness exists.

Selfishness is essential to our sense of self - it is essential to our mental well being. It competes with, and is balanced by, our seeking connection with others (if seeking connection equals selflessness, I don't see it), and due to our seeking connection, we think of, and are considerate (etc) of, others (of course, I think we're all connected in some way anyway, so you could also say we seek to 'strengthen our connection to others')

Of course, that is only my perspective Very Happy

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hawkeye10,

In your discussion of Christianity versus Zen above you avoided my term "anthropocentrism". This refers to the human cognitive trait of looking for "purpose" or "intent" which is coupled with our urge to "control". Hence your usage of the word "instrument". It is my contention that you are confusing "selflessness" which transcends the "control concept" (indeed all concepts) with "lack of selfishness" which does not. Think about it.

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fresco wrote:

hawkeye10,

In your discussion of Christianity versus Zen above you avoided my term "anthropocentrism". This refers to the human cognitive trait of looking for "purpose" or "intent" which is coupled with our urge to "control". Hence your usage of the word "instrument". It is my contention that you are confusing "selflessness" which transcends the "control concept" (indeed all concepts) with "lack of selfishness" which does not. Think about it.

I can't use your terms because I don't understand them. I am a mystic, my rational skills might not be the best.

What I believe is that we discover our true natures, which are always with-in us, not able to be altered by us. We know that we have found them because we are naturally in tune with the universe. When we have find harmony between the illusion that we call the "self" and the universe we have found who we are.

I don't think that this is different in anyway from the Christian who feels that he is the instrument of God.

I said much earlier in this thread that it is impossible to be selfless, in Zen this is because on the rational plane the self is real, it is only non-existent on the plane of the absolute. For the Christian the self is real because it is the link between God and the actions of the body, take away the self and the link is broken.

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For the Christian the self is real because it is the link between God and the actions of the body

......the key issue being the concept of "free will" ...of deciding to relinquish control...etc.

If there is no controlling "agency" there is no need for a "link".

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fresco wrote:

......the key issue being the concept of "free will" ...of deciding to relinquish control...etc.

If there is no controlling "agency" there is no need for a "link".

I can't speak for Christians, but I am sure that they would say that following Gods will is done by constantly choosing not to resist Gods will. The self is always fully active, choosing, also is active discerning Gods will. I have never understood how a person tells what is Gods will and what is not.

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I have never understood how a person tells what is Gods will and what is not.

It would probably take a mystic to explain that Laughing

Of course, mysticism is riddiculed by Christian leaders. I'm not sure they even know what it is.

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It supercedes man's will and is, therefore, not too difficult to figure out.

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Why is it hard to understand God's will? The Bible makes it pretty clear. I think the problem is people can't distinguish THEIR will from God's will because of what THEY want and not what God wants.

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Why is it hard to understand God's will? The Bible makes it pretty clear. I think the problem is people can't distinguish THEIR will from God's will because of what THEY want and not what God wants.

The bible makes it clear on quite a number of issues, but it doesn't make it clear on many other things.

It is also clear from the Bible that what is right and wrong for certain things changes with the times (look at the hygiene rules given to the Israelite before they settled in Caanan - most of those simly can't apply anymore), and with the culture.

It is clear that there should be underlying principles behind many rules (ie the resulting commands of God's will), but it is not always clear what those principles are.

It is also clear that some of the bible was written from personal and social prejudice - I'm referring to God's alleged hate of Gays. I've asked a few lesbians (can't quite bring myself to ask the gays) if they've ever been attracted to men, and received back a few 'never's - been attracted to girls since first they could remember being attracted to anyone. Genetics backs that up, and if God made the genetics, he certainly can't 'hate' what he created.

Then, on a slightly different tack, there is the time Christians spend in prayer trying to work out what God's will is for them...

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Theists cannot be selfless

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