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Obama's New Vulnerability

 
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 02:42 pm
Quote:
Obama will beat him handily, having massively out-raised and out-organized him.


And if, by some chance, McCain does win?
What will you do then?

Will you accept that, or will you immediately start with the conspiracy theories that you had after 2000 and 2004?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 02:45 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Quote:
Obama will beat him handily, having massively out-raised and out-organized him.


And if, by some chance, McCain does win?
What will you do then?

Will you accept that, or will you immediately start with the conspiracy theories that you had after 2000 and 2004?


Barring some sort of evidence of wrong-doing, I will accept it. And by 'you' I suppose you mean 'Dems in general,' as I voted for Bush in 2000 and was not dismayed by the outcome.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 02:48 pm
Nope, I was wrong in my belief that the GOP would hold on to the Senate. Hell, I've been wrong three or four times already this morning according to Natalie. You also seem to have the impression that I'm arguing with you, or debating some issue. Wrong. Neither of us is likely to be much persuaded by anything the other asserts. You doubtless have reams of political commentary written in support of your candidate, and there is an equal amount probably available to counter those opinions by the GOP. The bottom line is that both begin with an opinion, and then supporting "facts" are dredged up to support the opinion. During the heat of an American political campaign more BS is shoveled in a year than all the cattle in the world have produced in the last 25. Instead of that, or latching onto a candidate just because he/she say they support some issue of interest to me, I try to look for more objective clues to their character, their toughness and ability to work effectively in stressful circumstances. I'm interested in candidates whose political philosophy is "as nearly as possible congruent with that of the Great Federalists, Washington, Hamilton, Adams, Madison, Jay, etc. I'm turned off by candidates who may hold greater loyalty to Party, or some idea, than to the Nation and its Constitution.

For all I know, Obama will win handily. If he does, then I sincerely hope my misgivings about him and his incompetence to lead the greatest nation in the world is also wrong. If President Obama can crush utterly the terrorists who operate under the guise of Radical Islam, that would make me very happy. If he can reduce the National Debt while increasing the standards of living for all Americans, I'll be the first to applaud. If Obama comes into Office and conflicts around the world are replaced with a thousand years of peace and prosperity with religious and racial harmony the order of the day, I'll be in the "Amen Corner". The problem is I don't think any of that is more than a three-pipe opium dream.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 02:50 pm
And you think a President McCain could crush utterly the terrorists who operate under the guise of Radical Islam, reduce the National Debt while increasing the standards of living for all Americans, and replace conflicts around the world with a thousand years of peace and prosperity, Asherman?
0 Replies
 
nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 02:51 pm
sozobe wrote:
More on McCain's UNimpressive campaign so far, with a lot of links/cites:

http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2008/02/the-great-untes.html

Excerpt:

Quote:
At first glance, you might think McCain's primary victory is evidence of his own campaigning skills. But I don't think so. His victory (for unique reasons) doesn't necessarily show his Darwinian chops. Despite all his experience, McCain remains in many ways a roll of the dice.

Consider 2000. While he had some initial success due to fawning press coverage (which is probably his key "skill"), the ultimate result was a spectacular flameout in South Carolina and beyond. The South Carolina tactics were despicable, sure. But Republican primaries aren't pretty. He knew the players involved and should have been better prepared. More to the point, you can't win a Republican nomination when you ostentatiously demonize key coalition members, as he did. Personally, I applauded the criticism of Jerry Falwell, but I'd have been cringing if I were his campaign manager.

Moving on to 2008, the stars aligned perfectly for him. Ross Douthat has made the case more eloquently than I have, but McCain's victory had a lot to do with luck. First, his rapid ascent helped him avoid embarrassing media moments. Remember that, for most of 2007, McCain was ignored. Thus, he wasn't subject to the type of exacting scrutiny that Romney and Rudy (and, to a lesser extent, Fred Thompson got). He had to keep things together for a month rather than a year - a much easier task.

Second, his victory was less than overwhelming. McCain won a relatively small plurality among a sharply divided field. His victory had less to do with his savvy campaigning, and more to do with (1) a conservative base split between Romney and Huckabee; (2) Rudy's rapid collapse and strategic blunders; and (3) Thompson's silly last stand in South Carolina.


I'm not sure who the author of this piece is, nor what they're really trying to say here. I notice elsewhere on the 'blog' the military is referred to as 'scum', so I personally will just take most of what's printed there (news?) with a few grains of salt.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 02:53 pm
Salt away! I'm a big fan of taking things with grains (or shakers) of salt.

The opinions in the blog I link to contain links to various news sources, though. (Washington Post X 3 plus other bloggers with their own sources.) If you want to actually dispute any claims made, have at it.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 02:53 pm
Asherman wrote:
Nope, I was wrong in my belief that the GOP would hold on to the Senate. Hell, I've been wrong three or four times already this morning according to Natalie. You also seem to have the impression that I'm arguing with you, or debating some issue. Wrong. Neither of us is likely to be much persuaded by anything the other asserts. You doubtless have reams of political commentary written in support of your candidate, and there is an equal amount probably available to counter those opinions by the GOP. The bottom line is that both begin with an opinion, and then supporting "facts" are dredged up to support the opinion. During the heat of an American political campaign more BS is shoveled in a year than all the cattle in the world have produced in the last 25. Instead of that, or latching onto a candidate just because he/she say they support some issue of interest to me, I try to look for more objective clues to their character, their toughness and ability to work effectively in stressful circumstances. I'm interested in candidates whose political philosophy is "as nearly as possible congruent with that of the Great Federalists, Washington, Hamilton, Adams, Madison, Jay, etc. I'm turned off by candidates who may hold greater loyalty to Party, or some idea, than to the Nation and its Constitution.

For all I know, Obama will win handily. If he does, then I sincerely hope my misgivings about him and his incompetence to lead the greatest nation in the world is also wrong. If President Obama can crush utterly the terrorists who operate under the guise of Radical Islam, that would make me very happy. If he can reduce the National Debt while increasing the standards of living for all Americans, I'll be the first to applaud. If Obama comes into Office and conflicts around the world are replaced with a thousand years of peace and prosperity with religious and racial harmony the order of the day, I'll be in the "Amen Corner". The problem is I don't think any of that is more than a three-pipe opium dream.


Fair enough. If McCain wins, and manages to make things better, I will sing his praises as well.

In fact, I've been long prepared to praise ol' Bush - if he would show signs of making things better, which he hasn't done much of.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 02:57 pm
sozobe wrote:
Salt away! I'm a big fan of taking things with grains (or shakers) of salt.

The opinions in the blog I link to contain links to various news sources, though. (Washington Post X 3 plus other bloggers with their own sources.) If you want to actually dispute any claims made, have at it.


No thanks. Some of these 'blogs' (and bloggers on both the left and the right) leave me wanting to take a shower afterwards.

Not worth revisiting yours.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 02:59 pm
Here's more on what I originally referred to re: McCain, from July 10th, 2007:

Quote:


http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2007-07-10-mccain_N.htm
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 03:00 pm
Does USA Today make you want to shower, too? If so, I can find another source... just let me know what's OK. ;-)
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 03:07 pm
More on the FEC issue -- Washington Post suitable?

Quote:
McCain's attempts to build up his campaign coffers before a general election contest appeared to be threatened by the stern warning yesterday from Federal Election Commission Chairman David M. Mason, a Republican. Mason notified McCain that the commission had not granted his Feb. 6 request to withdraw from the presidential public financing system.

The implications of that could be dramatic. Last year, when McCain's campaign was starved for cash, he applied to join the financing system to gain access to millions of dollars in federal matching money. He was also permitted to use his FEC certification to bypass the time-consuming process of gathering signatures to get his name on the ballot in several states, including Ohio.

By signing up for matching money, McCain agreed to adhere to strict state-by-state spending limits and an overall limit on spending of $54 million for the primary season, which lasts until the party's nominating convention in September. The general election has a separate public financing arrangement.

But after McCain won a series of early contests and the campaign found its financial footing, his lawyer wrote to the FEC requesting to back out of the program -- which is permitted for candidates who have not yet received any federal money and who have not used the promise of federal funding as collateral for borrowing money.

[...]

If the FEC refuses McCain's request to leave the system, his campaign could be bound by a potentially debilitating spending limit until he formally accepts his party's nomination. His campaign has already spent $49 million, federal reports show. Knowingly violating the spending limit is a criminal offense that could put McCain at risk of stiff fines and up to five years in prison.

"If in fact he is stuck with these spending limits, it would be a serious limitation on what he can do," said Rick Hasen, an election law expert at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/21/AR2008022103141_2.html
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 03:19 pm
Sozobe,

I believe that John McCain will try very hard to, "crush utterly the terrorists who operate under the guise of Radical Islam, reduce the National Debt while increasing the standards of living for all Americans, and replace conflicts around the world with a thousand years of peace and prosperity". Could he do it? Probably not, because it is unlikely that both fighting a war and reducing the National Debt are incompatible. Do one and the other suffers, so a decision has to be made, and I trust that John McCain is more competent to make that decision than either of the two Democratic candidates. And, of course, war has always been with us and it will probably remain a central characteristic of humanbeing for the next couple of thousand years.

Can Radical Islamic terrorism be crushed? Yes, I believe it can be defeated, but that it is not going to happen quickly, nor is it possible without keeping steady pressure on Radical Islamic organizations and States. Who is more likely to maintain a tough, proactive military capable of deterring our enemies? Obama/Clinton, or McCain? Without a credible military presence and the Will to use it, who will negotiate with us in good faith? Which of those will be effective in diplomatic efforts to protect our national interests?

Can the National Debt be reduced? Yes, I believe it can be done but only by the nation making some very grave decisions. Congressional waste and pork has to be greatly reduced, and the President needs a line-item veto. The number of Federal employees needs to be reduced, and the States have to decide for themselves what programs can be afforded. Social entitlement programs need to be reassessed, and scaled back. Free Trade agreements, I believe are in our nation's best interest so long as our partners abide by the agreements. I believe the Federal government should leave issues like Abortion, Educational policies, Gay Rights, etc. to the States. I don't believe the Federal government should be in the business of redistributing wealth, but that it should prevent monopolies, trusts, and other anti-competitive practices. Who is more likely to adopt these ideas, Obama/Clinton or McCain?

The thing is in the real world airy-fairy idealism is both ineffective and inefficient. No one can foresee clearly what is going to happen, or what unintended consequences will occur. On balance, the practical and experienced politician is better equipped to steer a clear course away from the most dangerous shoals. The candidate best suited for the Presidency, in my opinion is John McCain. I expect he will fall short, but he will try hard and represent the nation with honor and credibility.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 03:28 pm
And that's exactly my opinion of Obama. I don't expect these amazing things from him -- I'm not expecting 1,000 years of peace or any of the other things you posited. I merely think Obama is the best of the three candidates currently in the running -- four if you include Huckabee.

Since there isn't much progress that can be made by merely trading the opinion that we think McCain (or Obama) is more likely to make a good president than Obama (or McCain), I go to more objective measures such as how they are handling their campaigns so far, as an indication of their executive skills. I think Obama's campaign says quite good things about his executive skills -- and that McCain's campaign(s) say some rather problematic things.
0 Replies
 
nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 03:29 pm
sozobe wrote:
Does USA Today make you want to shower, too? If so, I can find another source... just let me know what's OK. ;-)


Anything that doesn't equate the men and women serving in uniform as scum - you know, that stuff that forms on the walls of the aquarium.

Although I realize that type of thing is acceptable to most here.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 03:31 pm
Not really. Doesn't seem to be what was actually said, either. I searched for "scum," and found:

Quote:
And while Duke Cunningham was a scum of a politician, and perhaps of a human being (it's really not for me to judge that), in fairness:

    [...] He was one of the most highly decorated United States Navy pilots in the Vietnam War, receiving the Navy Cross once, the Silver Star twice, the Air Medal 15 times, and the Purple Heart for wounds he received under enemy fire.


Note the formulation. While he was a scum of politician, he wasn't all bad -- he was a highly decorated veteran.

As in, being a highly decorated veteran is good.

Were you referring to something else?
0 Replies
 
nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 03:36 pm
sozobe wrote:
Not really. Doesn't seem to be what was actually said, either. I searched for "scum," and found:

Quote:
And while Duke Cunningham was a scum of a politician, and perhaps of a human being (it's really not for me to judge that), in fairness:

    [...] He was one of the most highly decorated United States Navy pilots in the Vietnam War, receiving the Navy Cross once, the Silver Star twice, the Air Medal 15 times, and the Purple Heart for wounds he received under enemy fire.


Note the formulation. While he was a scum of politician, he wasn't all bad -- he was a highly decorated veteran.

As in, being a highly decorated veteran is good.

Were you referring to something else?


Yes, but as I've said I've no wish to revisit there. If I choose to comment on your McCain post, I'll read the mainstream material.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 03:39 pm
Sounds great!

I agree that the actual meat of what I've posted thus far is much more interesting than debating what may or may not have been said in the comments section of a (heavily-cited) blog.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 04:12 pm
Sozobe,

The manner in which each of the candidates have managed their campaigns, is a good indicator that we need to be aware of. On that basis alone, you conclude that Obama is a better manager than McCain. I disagree. The McCain campaign has had problems. Early on spending was out-stripping the funding, and his appearances weren't working very well. He had gotten off message, and it looked like curtains. The smart thing probably at the time would have been to throw in the towel and leave it to Romney and Guiliani to fight it out. McCain is too tough for that. He fired staff, canceled expensive transportation and began to select his appearances more carefully. Even more importantly, he returned to the straight forward expression of what he believes in rather than what the pundits thought would sell. It's been an uphill battle against tough opponents, but the McCain Comeback is going to be remembered for years for its success against overwhelming odds. That's facing adversity, making hard decisions and going back into battle renewed. The GOP Primary Campaign has demonstrated McCain's chief asset... his toughness and dedication to prevail against any odds.

Many of the most partisan Republicans dislike McCain for his independence, and willingness to put the nation's interest above conservative principles. I like that in a Presidential candidate, and I think most Americans like that trait as well. It is a problem though, because those more radical partisans are needed to invigorate the campaign agains the Democratic candidate. Fundamentalists Christians don't see in John McCain a supporter in their brand of religion, but then the Fundamentalists probably would vote for the anti-christ before Clinton or Obama. Loud mouths and self-appointed experts like Coulter and Limbaugh have some influence among the more radical elements of the GOP, but most older Americans living ordinary lives in Middle America aren't radical in any sense of the word.

However, I think your criteria is too narrow. All of the candidates have lives and records that reveal who they are underneath all the campaign rhetoric and bombast. We've lived through the greatest adversity of Hillary Clinton's life, that is her public humiliation of a philandering husband who was only the third President to face Impeachment proceedings. When she became First Lady, she vowed to be the most involved First Lady in history. She used her position to quarter-back her elaborate plan to socialize American medicine and it failed miserably. Her shady real estate dealings aren't easily forgotten. She was involved in selling influence to lobbyists and foreign agents. Nothing was proven, but the allegations remain. Clinton's home and political base was in Arkansas , but she managed to get elected as Senator from New York. Her legislative record isn't very substantial, though she has a genius for getting in the news. So, you see we as voters "know" a lot about Hillary Clinton, just as we know a lot about the strengths and weaknesses of John McCain (hot temper, perhaps too independent and unwilling to listen, etc.)

What do we know about Obama? Not nearly as much because he is still young and a political novice. He has a very modest legislative record, but he will go along with senior Party leadership. He has been careful not to offend the big Democratic Party chieftains, by opposing any of their interests. He uses his youth and charisma to attract young educated people with high ideals, but little understanding of the world's realities. He raises a whole lot of money, because everyone wants on the bandwagon while he is riding high. His positions are all carefully framed and can mean almost anything to anyone. At the moment, he reflects the hopes and ideals of people, and like most people he hasn't a clue about what is involved in running the Executive Branch of the Federal government.

If Obama had more of a record, if he ever faced grave adversity and overcame it, if he had any experience directing government, it might be different. However, Obama has almost no record comparable with what we normally expect in Presidential candidates, so he must either impress us all with how great his insights and policies are for dealing with complex domestic and international issues, or he has to bet everything on his media image and its ability to generate emotional commitments.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 04:30 pm
Asherman wrote:
Sozobe,

The manner in which each of the candidates have managed their campaigns, is a good indicator that we need to be aware of. On that basis alone, you conclude that Obama is a better manager than McCain. I disagree. The McCain campaign has had problems. Early on spending was out-stripping the funding, and his appearances weren't working very well. He had gotten off message, and it looked like curtains. The smart thing probably at the time would have been to throw in the towel and leave it to Romney and Guiliani to fight it out. McCain is too tough for that. He fired staff, canceled expensive transportation and began to select his appearances more carefully. Even more importantly, he returned to the straight forward expression of what he believes in rather than what the pundits thought would sell. It's been an uphill battle against tough opponents, but the McCain Comeback is going to be remembered for years for its success against overwhelming odds. That's facing adversity, making hard decisions and going back into battle renewed. The GOP Primary Campaign has demonstrated McCain's chief asset... his toughness and dedication to prevail against any odds.


This is at least arguable. I presented a counter-argument last page. My own quick summary -- McCain was very, very LUCKY. Romney had too many problems and was eliminated. Giuliani absolutely imploded. Thompson never got anywhere. Huckabee, the last one standing, is still picking up wins and getting a sizable protest vote -- he's in the 40's in polls in Ohio and Texas.

Quote:
However, I think your criteria is too narrow.


I haven't laid out any particular criteria. I picked up on the discussion re: executive experience and went from there.

Quote:
What do we know about Obama?


Quite a lot.

Quote:
He has a very modest legislative record, but he will go along with senior Party leadership. He has been careful not to offend the big Democratic Party chieftains, by opposing any of their interests.


Is this based on anything?

Quote:
He uses his youth and charisma to attract young educated people with high ideals, but little understanding of the world's realities.


Or this? His deep understanding of the world's realities is a big part of why I support him. It's not just me -- he has racked up an impressive list of experienced, knowledgeable supporters who think that he embodies the best way for America to move forward in terms of foreign policy. (I can bring evidence of this on request.)

Quote:
He raises a whole lot of money, because everyone wants on the bandwagon while he is riding high.


And what about when he was riding low? Very low? That is what I point to and find most impressive. He has been the front-runner for a very short time.

Quote:
His positions are all carefully framed and can mean almost anything to anyone.


This is an especially spurious assertion. He says all kinds of very specific things. While an element of politicking is to not put one's supporters to sleep with specifics, he surely is not more general than McCain, for example.

Quote:
At the moment, he reflects the hopes and ideals of people, and like most people he hasn't a clue about what is involved in running the Executive Branch of the Federal government.


Again, what do you actually base this on?

Quote:
If Obama had more of a record, if he ever faced grave adversity and overcame it,


He has faced significant hurdles and overcome them, in terms of a tumultuous early family life, growing up without a father, etc. McCain has no doubt experienced graver adversity, but I don't consider torture to be a prerequisite for the presidency.

Quote:
if he had any experience directing government,


Experience that McCain has?

Quote:
However, Obama has almost no record comparable with what we normally expect in Presidential candidates, so he must either impress us all with how great his insights and policies are for dealing with complex domestic and international issues, or he has to bet everything on his media image and its ability to generate emotional commitments.


Or -- he can impress us with how great his insights and policies are for dealing with complex domestic and international issues (as he has impressed me, and many old political hands who do not impress easily), AND he can deploy his prodigious political gifts. I like that combination.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 04:31 pm
Re: McCain and his campaign, there is also the FEC issue.
0 Replies
 
 

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