Can we agree on any values?

I would also like to add that a lot of my previous posts were useless or vague or controversial and I am still trying to find a way how to discuss controversial topics with others. I am sometimes very skeptical - impossible to discuss anything that would lead to any benefits, but later i come here and try again. I think one has to be very very skilled in communication and be extremely open-minded to have any fruitful discussions with others at a forum like this. So I am learning and I might fail again.

I am very much interested in philosophy and values and how they are interwoven in real life and how these opinions help us have a happy life and help others. The reason why my posts in the past have been quite aggressive or one sided is probably that I am aware of the huge mess and contradictions in values of the modern world. I notice a lot of moral warnings or moral awarness among the people here at this forum but I can't see the link to real life. We know that the modern world these days is mostly driven by money and sexual lust. If those are the leading values, what credibility lies in the moral talk of intelligent Westerners. How come you don't have enough authority to make your ethical vies show in the way the modern world looks. If you disagree tell me how you have contributed to a better world thanks to your ethical views. These are issues that I find extremely important.

I see a lot of positive and beautiful in the West. Care of environment,
tolerance and supporting minorities, supporting women and women becoming an equal power leading the world politically. More and more people of different colors and ages can choose how to live more and more.
Those are great things. I am sure most of you here have hugely contributed to these great aspects of the Western world by your own actions and ideas and struggle. But there is still lots of pretention and
fake and cheap and dishonest happening and simple ethical exclamations don't work.

Things that have discouraged me or disqualified me here in the past were
opinions presented as if they were the truth, analysis presented as real facts, opinions presented as facts instead of opinions. And other problems, so I am hopefully not diversing, still asking what values we share - what can we agree on?

I think the way to teach children what characteristics or traits can be valuable and beneficial to them (which is what I consider values to represent) is to allow them to experience (within reason) what the consequences of not adhering to a certain behavior that embodies those values will entail.

Honesty, dignity, hard work, responsibility and kindness are values I stress in my class. And if someone acts in such a way that those values are evidenced in their behavior on a regular basis - I almost never say no to any request they make of me. Thus they are rewarded for their adherence to those values.
If, on the other hand, someone comes in late everyday, cheats, curses, bullies and is shiftless and doesn't produce any work - anything they ask me to do (except help them) I pretty much say no to. The ones who get their work done - I let them leave for lunch five minutes early. The ones who are slugs sit there until the bell rings. When another teacher is having a party or a movie and invites students from my class - the ones who have done their work get to go - the others sit there and work (or continue not to work) but they don't go to the party or watch the movie.

Because, guess what? That's the way real life works. You do what you're supposed to do and you can spend your free time doing what you want to do. If you don't do what you're supposed to do - you don't have the resources to do very much of anything that you want to do.

So I let them make their own choice and experience the consequences of that choice. Alot of them come around - others don't- but who knows- maybe they will later on.
Because if there's one thing I've learned about kids - you cannot force them to do what they don't want to do - without becoming abusive. A child or young adult (and especially the type of young adults that I teach) are always willing to go further to feel that they are in control than any sane adult would. Force does not work. They have got to believe that they are making their own decision- or they will fight you every step of the way.
You can't just talk - you have to SHOW them that what you are asking them to do will bear positive results for them.

Aidan, I have no doubt that what you do and how you handle the kids according to your values is zillion years ahead of what most teachers did
in the 30s.

But my little doubt and I am checking how it works in my own teaching experience - i have doubts whether it is possible to lead kids to those values and why we should lead them that way. At the moment am I trying
to observe and figure out how their motivation is formed and how their values are being formed and what pushes them in which direction. Instead of teaching them what is right, I am adding different ingredients into the formula and waiting for the results.

For example - honesty, great I wish all my students were honest. Honesty is one of those values all sane nations and cultures will agree on. The problem is - they, the kids are developing into adults and they are checking what the adult world is like. And in our countrie 90% politicians and media is NOT honest. This is a fact, we do have democracy and I can vote whatever party and my vote counts. But
the problem is that most politicians play games with voters and media, and most people believe the lies in media and the lies politicians say. Politicians go hand in hand with our media to manipulate opinions of people. Now my students are growing up in a country that is based on democracy and freedom of speech and traveling etc... great, BUT a country that is controled by dishonest politicians and media. Hence my students must have a picture that reality is quite dishonest. A teacher trying to teach honesty must look a bit foolish to them. It seems crazy to go and
do some campaign to alarm students and have them read some independent press and it might be against the policy of our school to do such a political campaign. But a few weeks ago I had a new group of students and we discussed ethical problems and all of a sudden i had an idea - I told them: Please, don't let the media and politicians fool you. Please, read the press that is independent and try to keep in touch with facts. Our country's future depends on such great, open-minded, honest people like you. So please try to find out what the truth is and follow it. That is the best thing you can do to help the society. It is not that there is no clear truth or facts. The problem is that a lot of people try to hide the truth or don't know it exists so you must do your best to find it. In politics, as we have some independent press, it is not so difficult as in other areas.



YOu know, so when I come across a student who cheats, the rules are something like I cancel the results or give a F, but I dont' even tell them it is wrong to cheat. (At 15 or 18 they already know) I just wonder what makes them cheat and then remember the dishonest media and politics that rules our country.

But then there are values like hard work, it is even more problematic to
teach as something simply positive. I am 40 and only lately have been discovering the value of hard work. To me hard work was anything from pain, hassle to option. To teach that hard work is something good is almost the same as to teach that doing good is good.
People have to discover that. I don't know. I don't even think that it is possible to decide what hard work is. You may come across a lazy foolish person who only walks around, sits around in coffee houses, drops off school, never does anything and after 30 years of this wasting time writes a breakthrough novel and gets a Nobel prize for literature. SHe or he has been collecting inspiration and experience and thinking all that time and waiting for the right time to start writing.

I guess I started a thread that could go to all directions. But the point is - are we sure our values are the right ones? And how can we make others adopt the best values we have? We should not forget that all adults are still immature, crazy children to a certain degree. We can see it all around us.

Personally, I was a very bad student at high school. I almost failed all subjects like math, physics, chemistry and also struggled in subjects where my talent could have been helpful but due to the rigid and totalitarian atmosphere of the school my talent to think was useless as i was not allowed to think freely, only memorize. So I was a horrible student and felt frustrated all those high school years. See, the values of the school were all useless for me. Now I appreciate the order and discipline but at 16 it meant nothing, only terror to me. And everything I ever memorized there is forgotten. I learned one great thing - as i am a teacher myself I am trying to learn from the nonsense I was presented as a student and do the opposite, teach something useful and realistic and something that would help the students to develop both as humans and intellectuals.

Yeah, well I guess I would ask, "What is the alternative?'

I happen to like to work just to work...I know it's weird...but I like the way it makes me feel to be moving and producing something as opposed to sitting there feeling like I'm wasting time or opportunity or whatever.

I guess if someone values sitting around more than they value productivity - that's their choice...that's what I said. I let them discover what works for them. If they want to sit and vegetate- then hell- go for it...but don't expect to get the same results that other people who work get. If you're happy with that - more power to you...

If it makes you feel good to lie - then again- go for it. But don't expect people to trust you.

If you like being mean to people - live it up - but don't expect anyone to like being around you...

I think they have to learn from experience to find their own way. And I have seen people change...they watch and see what happens to people who succeed and they want that too sometimes. Because I'm to the point Stach - that I've learned I can only teach people who want to learn. So I spend my time there and let those people be the examples for the others who aren't sure what they want yet...
In that way it is very black and white for me. I'm available to anyone who wants to learn- but until they decide they do- I tell them, don't waste my valuable time... I say, "I'm here to work - I'm not here to play games with you. You're an adult...if you're still into playing- go somewhere else and come back later."
Because they ARE adults - they are not children. They have wasted too much time already.

I like to think we could agree to disagree, live for the fight and provide sovereign amnesty to the defeated. That's just a drunken fantasy.

As for any individual point? I like the way Quakers, Baptists, and Physicists strive for a universal truth, but if we don't lock horns over it we'll never find it anyway or when we do we won't know what to do with it.

The right values are: FREEDOM,
INDIVIDUALISM, L'AISSEZ FAIRE FREE ENTERPRIZE,
and Hedonism.





DAVID

I agree with your first three values, but not hedonism. I think that hedonism, or pleasure for pleasure's sake, is doing things bass ackwards. Pleasure, IMO is something that one gets from accomplishment, the enjoyment that one receives when a job is done right, when one is fully open to learning of the joys that are possible to us in this world. Pleasure needs to be the result of correct actions, not the motivator.When hedonism is the motivator, and not the result, one can get into all sorts of mischief.

I am afraid omsigh is joking.

Freedom - freedom to do what? Freedom to shoot poeple, freedom to protest war by being aggressive, freedom to pee in public, freedom to
speak nonsense, freedom to preach hell, freedom to rape, freedom to leave your wife, freedom to have 50 lovers a month, freedom to disagree, freedom to make fun of the Queen, etc.

Freedom has to be defined and the definition will always dep[end on a certain philosophy of the defining subject.

Individualism, could be translated as selfishness.

Free enterprise is an economic theory.

Hedonism is something you have to pay for sooner or later. Hedonism does not necessarily mean happiness.

Hapiness does not necessarily mean happiness.

I think we should not teach students what values are right, only to teach what the society accepts and what it does not accept and why and to what extent. Instead of teaching war, we could teach just facts about history and instead of teaching pacifism we could explain what pacifists want and why trying to be neutral.

But as all of us have some personal values we should also somehow contribute to education by giving an personal, specific, individual example of a Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, pacifist, right or left wing, just telling students what is it that we cherish and why we cherish without forcing the students to agree.

Myabe it is too bold to generalize llike this, but I sense that if we are sincere, no matter what religion or philosophy we follow, the students
will pay attention and listen to us, but when we are not sincere, no matter what we say, the students will turn to drugs - not all of them, of course, some of them turn to the drugs of religious fanaticism.

stach- To put it in a nutshell, I kive my life by what might be considered a corollary of the golden rule, being, "the right to swing your arm ends at the other fellow's nose".

A person is not free to shoot people (except in self defense). That would be infringing on THEIR freedom. A person is not free to blast a stereo at 2 am, because that would disturb the neighbors.

A person is free to have fifty lovers a month, but if he/she did so, would need to understand the ramifications of such behavior, and take that into account before deciding whether to proceed. A person is not free to rape, according to my philosophy, because that is depriving another person of THEIR freedom.

I could go on and on, but I think that you get my idea.

Living free, as a human being, does not mean doing anything that you want, any time that you want to do it.

I think this is true- it's hard for students to trust adults who are maybe not the most mature-acting people in the world. But I also think the thing you said about sincerity is important-not in terms of religion especially-but in terms of feelings in general.

One of the rules in my school is no profanity in the classroom. The F-word is so embedded in these kids' lexicon - to get them to utter even one sentence without using it as a descriptor is an amazing accomplishment. So we just enforce this rule - NO PROFANITY!- no exceptions (and we don't give them a choice about that).

Well there's this kid in my class that everyone picks on and the other day I had to go out into the hall to talk privately to this girl who was crying and when I came back in all the a**hole tough guys in the back were whining, "Miss, Miss - P. said, "Bitch". I just looked at him and asked him why he said it. He told me that someone on the back row was throwing spitballs at his back - so he had turned around and told the whole back row they were bitches - but then he said, "I'm sorry, I guess I should have said something like "punks" instead.

So I said, "Well, you know what would have been most accurate- if it wasn't against the rules? You could have said, "Cut it out you "punk-ass bitches", if it wasn't against the rules, that is. Because any adult (and these people are between the ages of 16-24) man who has to bully someone behind that person's back, deserves a label like "punk-ass bitch"- it's just too bad that it's against the rules-so you can't say it."

By this time- the boys (I don't care how old they are - they're little boys) at the back of the room were absolutely silent and P. and I were smiling.

So values also need to be somewhat flexible. What works sometimes doesn't necessarily work all the time.

really nice, wise

Re: Can we agree on any values?


What makes these that you have listed 'universal' and everything else just 'a matter of opinion'?

Do unto others what you want others to do unto you or w/e i forget the exact quote.

i take three l's to the head, love,live,life then im dead.

Universal values get to be universal through the process of communication through a community. They are not genetically programed or ordained by the divine. As community breaks down so goes universal values, as America is finding out.

Speaking of values- I have this situation with a student at work which is really testing my own values- actually I have several....I'd just like to get a sense of what people (especially younger people who can relate to these situations from the students' point of view) think:

1) The school I teach in is a boarding school. But the students there do not come from families with big bucks - in fact it's the opposite. These students are there because they often have no place else to go- either their families are unable to afford to continue to care for them, they have no family and they are homeless ( a lot of these students are kids who have aged out of the foster care system without ever having been adopted), etc.

One of the rules is they are not allowed to drink or use drugs- period. If there is any chance that is happening - they are immediately breathalized and or screened for drugs. It's part of my job as the teacher who sees them everyday to order a screen if I'm suspicious in any way.

So far - I've ordered two screens- knowing that if the screens come back positive - the student might be out on the street and lose this chance for an education and a place to live. I ordered those two because I was worried the students in question were causing irreparable damage to their health - they would walk around in what amounted to a stupor and would sometimes be impossible to wake up (on staff work days - I've covered the dorms in the morning).
I felt these kids were into something other than weed - and it turns out they were. They both got terminated (kicked out of the program). I liked both of them very much - and was sad because they blamed me for their termination. Although I knew this blame was misplaced, I was sad myself that I had to play any part in it.

Well, yesterday, my buddy Robert smelled like alcohol. I was passing out protractors and walked by his desk and got a definite whiff. I pulled him out into the hall and asked him why he was drinking before noon (if at ALL- but especially before noon for goodness sake). First he lied- and I looked him in the eye and said, "Robert - we both know I'm not stupid. I've socialized. I know what I'm smelling. Why are you taking such a chance, first of all - and secondly- what's going on that you feel you have to drink to make it through the day?" He just looked at me and said, "I'm stressed."
This is the smartest, nicest, most personable kid who has never caught a break in his life - mom dead, father trying but not really making it - I'm sure there are all sorts of reasons he's stressed out and drinking. I should have ordered a breathalizer (according to our values and rules). I didn't. I told him to go brush his teeth - (knowing that there are people there who would smell it and kick him out without a second thought) and told him not to drink again. But now I have to figure out what to do if he does, and I smell it on him. What values should I employ?
There is no mechanism for him to be able to have a drinking problem and get help with it at my school. It's drink- and you're out - even if that means out on the street with a drinking problem and no job....

So what are my options here?

No

Snood - you are the soul of brevity - unfortunately I can't derive any clarity or understanding from your response. Was that your intent- or would you actually like to help me here? (From what I remember about what you've said about your own life - I think you might have some insight that I don't).

Feel free to contribute either way. Thanks.

I was answering the launch question. That clear it up at all?