Can we agree on any values?

Sure - it's just that usually when people are answering questions from two or three weeks and a couple of pages ago on a thread (which is when the original post is from) they quote the question they're answering to avoid any confusion. But everyone's different, right?

Thanks for your clarification. At least I won't have to wonder what the no was in reference to anymore- although I don't know how "no" answers the question,"What do you think guys - what values can we offer our kids?"

But again- everyone reads things their own way. Have a great day Snood. Snowy here - how bout in your neck of the woods?

I just came on this thread. My time is limited this morning, so I didn't read what everyone wrote. Skimmed some of it. I believe that we determine what values to teach a child based on the attitudes and mores of the times, rightly or wrongly. Higher truths come in down the line of importance. Is that the way it should be? Probably not. Will it ever change? Probably not.

The question was, "Can we agree on any values?" My answer was, "No". It is my opinion that there are such widely divergent ideas about what constitutes right and wrong that we here on this internet forum can probably not ever agree on what correct 'values' are. I think that from knowing the question asked in the launch, an explanation for my answer is superfluous, but hope it edifies you.

Phoenix32890,

These days "hedonism," except in the most formal discourse, has quite a negative cast. If you'd like to explore the positive side of hedonism, in the philosophical sense of the word, take a look at British philosopher Jeremy Bentham's "Calculus of Hedonism." I find it provocative. If one tries to do the actual calculations, one soon (as Bentham himself did) runs into problems; however, the general concept can be very useful. When I am making complex decisions involving the assistance of another person, I occasionally rough out an analysis "in the spirit of" Bentham's "Calculus."

Maybe we should revive this thread.

We can't agree on anything because our community is for sh*t, made of weak little sub communities but no general community. At one time community was based around the church, then as the church fractured into a thousand different denominations the center became the school. The schools based community fell apart with the help of ill advised desegregation themed busing of kids all around town, and the flight of those who wanted out of public schools for race or class reasons. Now we have nothing.

During my university days i lived in a student co-op, which was a hold over from the student movement during the sixties. 40+ kids, living in a house that the student co-op corp owned, with no adult supervision. We had chore charts, had kitchen, had rotating cooks and two meals a day. The students were over achieving grad students, hard boiled concervatives, normal kids, druggies, outcasts, foreign students, gays, feminists......could not possibly work right?? well, most of the time it more or less did. We had officers and meetings and arguments and broke bread together, and went out drinking together. There were clicks, there were individuals who hated each other, but there was no way to avoid dealing with each other....so we did, we figured something out. It was not always easy, it took more time then most people today would be willing to spend on their living situation I think... It was damn educational that is for sure. I learned a lot about people, and gained a huge amount of respect for democracy and for the wisdom of the concept of respecting others. With the right attitude combined with the skills learned from living in a community just about any problem can be solved. We never did all agree, but we came closer to agreeing as time when on, and we learned how to deal with each other where we did not agree in a way that left all of the individuals feeling whole and feeling like their opinion counted.

To return to Aidan's question, I do believe we can teach and model important values for our children that are closer to timeless absolutes than to timely cultural relativism.

For instance, my father taught me not to lie, cheat, steal, or to harass women. Further, I was to protect children, the elderly, and the weak. I was to pay my debts. Also, I was to stand up for my friends and family. Finally, I was to stick up for myself.

His father had taught him the same values. I, with my wife's agreement and reinforcement, taught our daughters these exact same values, except for extending the no harassment to include both sexes.

Our older daughter seems to be teaching and modeling the same list of values to her daughter.

Whether the values in this list are absolute, I am not qualified to say. What I can say is that they have helped me and a good number of my family over who knows how long. And I feel certain that other families have supported quite similar values, irrespective of time and place.

Parents are only qualified to teach their kids their values, which when families were stronger were almost always multi-generational family values. Even today family values usually over ride anything the kids are taught outside the family, with the notable exception of them being taught how to be consumers by the commercial media they are bombarded with.

Joe- I couldn't get the link to the thread you posted to open (probably my screwy internet - which sometimes takes forever- and sometimes never works at all). But anyway - I am interested in knowing what thread you are referring to - especially if it pertains at all to my specific question about what my responsibility is in terms of this young man- and how I can feel that I'm upholding my own values and modeling what I consider to be good values for him, while at the same time feeling that I am being helpful to him- instead of feeling like either an accomplice or enabler or someone who's enforcing rules that are detrimental in the long run and cruelly punitive.

I have to admit - I'm a rule bender- and a bleeding heart. That's pretty much always been my modus operandi-but I have on occasion had to be tough- and I can be when I know that it's dangerous for me not to be - for instance, I've had to call DHS on mothers I was working with whom I knew loved their children the best they could, but who had done things in my presence that I knew were either neglectful or abusive (for instance, once a mom got angry at her two year old and threw him on a bed- and he banged his head on the wall. She was immediately sorry- and told me so- but all I could think is, "What if she does it again and he breaks his neck the next time?).

I'm not one to change my values with the times or with the crowd. But I do believe this rule is a good rule and it's there for a reason. I don't want this young man, whom I care about deeply, to get the message from me that this is an okay rule to break. But I also don't want him to be out on the street. I can't talk about it to anyone at work because then I put them in the same position I'm in - or they take matters into their own hands and expose him.

So value wise - I don't know what to do. I'm sincerely asking for insight.

it sounds like hell

As a drinker myself, my thought is that you should be honest with the kid and tell him that you can't make allowances for him and not the others and that your job is at stake. If he chooses to drink after knowing the circumstances,
that is HIS decision and he has to be responsible for what happens next.
(that way, whatever happens, he will at least feel it was his choice to make and not like a victim of prejudice if he's asked to leave).

Honestly, the sooner he learns he's responsible for any trouble he might cause when drunk the better.
You can decide later (if the need arises) if you should report him or not, but I think it might do him some good to feel the responsibility like that and you might just be helping him to get off the booze (which must be a good thing).

If he understands the consequences fully and needs you, he won't drink.
But perhaps he's drinking because he wants to move on.

I think you have to let him decide.

I'll shut up now.

Endy- that's exactly what my thoughts were and actually what I did do. I told him that first and foremost he was putting himself at risk, but secondly, he was putting me in a difficult position, and that what he was choosing to do, if he continued, would just end badly for him and sadly for me.

And what you said, is right on target. It's true that sometimes these kids just aren't ready to make the changes that need to be made and so they do do things to sabotage their success and any change that feels uncomfortable.

What I was unsure about - not being an addictive personality myself- was how to think about or approach the issue of his addiction. And what I wanted to make allowances for, was the fact that these students have, to a man and/or woman, had really terribly hard issues to face in their short lives- and if they are addicted or feel the need to escape sometimes - we should be there to help them with that...and not just throw them back out on the streets they came from to have to deal with everything alone...

I think that's the part of the rule I can't accept. Although I understand that we are not a treatment center- and we can't be everything to everybody - I feel like we should helping these kids with all of the issues they have - because god knows, when I hear what they've been through, I can understand why they have them.

Anyway - he came to class today- clean and sober and actually in a pretty good mood. It was good to see. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

i know. Pathetic isn't it?

Here in Britain, people are always asking, 'what's wrong with kids these days? Drinking, smoking dope, getting into fights..."

We expect kids to grow up to be mature and responsible, while many of the the adults around them are clearly addicted to all manner of ****. Money, violence, war, materialism, hatred.

The adults around them simply cannot break the habit. Yet they expect young people to be miraculously ten times stronger.
I honestly believe that we are traumatizing our young people from an early age because we shirk from our responsibility to face up to our own failures within a greed driven society.

Maybe, before you leave, you could put forward a recommendation to the board of directors or whatever - suggesting that they "Grow the f*ck up."


Seriously - i hope the lad will be okay. Addiction is a weird thing. I was told once that kids often drink or self-harm to engage with their pain. But that they can choose to feel the pain of the addiction, instead of the pain of self-abuse.
Writing about it can help, i think.

all the best with it

E

Damn, Endy I wish you worked with me

I feel exactly the same - we're a bunch of lame ass adults who have messed the world up for so many of these kids (except we always make sure our own children get the absolute best, of course) and then we say - "Here, now get off your ass, stop whining and deal with it."
Well, I don't know how to tell a girl who was raped at the age of five to shut up and deal with it while she bisects her angles...

I'm so happy I get to work with these young people everyday instead of with your average adult in an office. They are so real...there is absolutely no pretense or asides or insidious, creeping bullshit...they just let it rip.

The other day when I gave the assignment this girl threw the paper back at me and said, "**** this ****- I aint doin' this, bitch." Well, six months ago I would have been in shock. But by this time- I knew - here's a test for me...so I said, "Hmmm, that wasn't the response I was hoping for."
She said, "Yeah, and what RESPONSE did your white ass think you was gonna get."
I said, "I don't know- something more like, thanks for the opportunity you're giving me to learn today Miss."
She just looked at me- and we both laughed. Later she asked, "Why you didn't get mad at me, Miss?"
I said, "You know - at least you had the courage to say it to my face. Most people don't have that kind of courage- even most adults. Some days I feel like saying the same exact thing...only I wouldn't call you a bitch- I'd get fired. Just make sure you don't make it a habit - we need to work on more productive ways to express our true feelings, okay?"

She's done every assignment since.

Endymion,

Excellent posts. They reflect reality--and kindness.

Aidan,

As one teacher to another, congratulations! You are modeling tolerance, a hugely important value in the scrambled world your students (and most all of us) inhabit.

Your school has a zero-tolerance policy for alcohol and other drugs, yet it offers no mechanism for kids who admit they have a problem to get help. Simply dumping onto the street a student who may simply be going through a rough patch strikes me as profoundly unethical.

I would have done exactly what you did with the boy who smelled of booze: tell him that neither he nor you can afford this--and please shape up. I think it would have been immoral to bust him for a first offense, when no one knows why he might be drinking or why he came to class having alcohol on his breath. He might decide to tell you why; he might very well not--but, at least, he's been encouraged to think about what he's doing. And now, he knows that it's up to him to obey the school rule--and this may take strength. If he succeeds, he will have built strength. And you are the one who gave him the opportunity. Good for you!

You apparently are willing to take risks to give kids freedom. Bravo. They know the risk system, because they live it the same as you do, only from a different POV. Knowing the risk system, most kids really notice when you take a chance in order to free them to make a better choice; they, generally, will respect you for treating them as free agents.

In my experience, the kids I cut slack often profited. They knew that I could get in considerable trouble for giving them a second chance, and they often then accepted responsibility for themselves and for my future.
They also knew that there would be no third chance. I figured that if I offered third chances, I was merely an enabler--not a helper.

I firmly believe that any caring teacher carries a LOT of secrets. BUT, when having held them allows a kid to learn to express himself/herself responsibly, hey, the secrets are no burden whatsoever.

In an earlier post on this thread, you wrote

"...that's the way real life works."

For me, one of the greatest aspects of real life is people trying to help other people. I may be naive and/or unduly optimistic, but that's what I believe, and that's how I continue to operate after retirement.

Sure, people--and some intelligent ones--can argue that all humankind is genetically destined to act darkly. I don't believe that. But I do believe that there are some sociopaths for whom, sadly, the best answer is probably incarceration. I have run across sociopaths when I taught, but, fortunately, they are quite rare. Most students, even if they dip into some serious trouble, deserve a second chance.

I'll close this rambling with a very important insight that my younger daughter gave me recently. I was puzzled why a really nice girl had stayed with a young man in our extended family who, though he carefully held onto a responsible and well-paying job, was addicted to high-stakes gambling, visiting lap-dancers, etc. My daughter agreed with me that she thought the young woman could do a lot better in boyfriends, "but, you've got to understand, Dad. Some genuinely nice girls can have a fairly extensive dark side. You don't know what she likes." Well, okay. Same goes for guys, I guess. Tolerance of what one doesn't understand in a situation is vital, as long as no one is obviously being abused.

I agree with Endymion that, just before or just after you leave this workplace, you might want to speak up about the inappropriateness of running a school with kids from these backgrounds and no system by which a student who's in trouble may come forward and ask for help without being put on the street.

Keep those second chances coming, Aidan. You obviously have both a big heart and very good sense--and you know well whom to offer some slack to.

Hmmm, don't know why that link wouldn't work for you. It works fine for me.

Anyway, it's a thread that dlowan started entitled "An Actual Ethical Dilemma Thread???" It was designed to address ethical choices faced by A2K members in their everyday lives.

Joe - thank you. I think it's just my internet connection is SO SLOW....especially when the weather is acting up - it's satellite- and they said that there might be times it's slow.

But I do appreciate you telling me about that thread. I have ethical situations almost every day in my job. So thank you.

Miklos- Thanks for your support and input. I feel better about not having done or said anything except to the young man, as he's come the past two days with what seems to be renewed interest and energy, and maybe that's a reflection of some decision he's come to inside himself.

Teaching is a great job, isn't it? I tell my friends about the laughter and the jokes - which far outweigh the negatives- and they just say..."I can't imagine going to work and getting that."
It's never boring....that's for sure. And where else could you work that you get so much love and so much emotion and variety? I hate to feel bored and stagnant and unchallenged - so it works for me. It's definitely an almost constant challenge.
(Maybe that's what your female relative gets out of her relationship with her guy - maybe it's just never predictable and constantly changing. I don't think I'd go for that in a relationship- but I guess some people do).