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Noah's Ark: Figurative or Literal?

 
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 01:17 am
How to build Noah's Ark: http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/noahark.html

Interesting reading. These people propose (or remind) that it may not have been a ship at all, but more of a box, a 'coffer'.

But also that Noah had to also amass enough food for all the animals for almost a year. God was not feeding them, he specifically told Noah it's up to him to gather enough food for all... Tough luck.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 01:25 am
vikorr wrote:

Has anyone ever counted the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of species of animals in this world, then tried to fit them into a computer modelled ark?


Where does the Bible mention 'species' ?

Isn't the concept of 'species' a modern one ? ( And a rather arbitrary one at that. For example, there are many 'species' of bears, but many or most of these may be able to interbreed. )
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 01:39 am
Real Life, included in the definition of species is that they can't interbreed with other species.

That is why dogs are different breeds, but same species. Same for horses. And sounds like the same for bears.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 01:52 am
vikorr wrote:
real life wrote:
vikorr wrote:

Has anyone ever counted the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of species of animals in this world, then tried to fit them into a computer modelled ark?


Where does the Bible mention 'species' ?

Isn't the concept of 'species' a modern one ? ( And a rather arbitrary one at that. For example, there are many 'species' of bears, but many or most of these may be able to interbreed. )

Real Life, included in the definition of species is that they can't interbreed with other species.

That is why dogs are different breeds, but same species. Same for horses. And sounds like the same for bears.


This seems to be at odds with your earlier objection:
vikorr wrote:


How many Cats n Dogs made it on? If only 2...wouldn't that speak for evolution (or did two of many breeds make it on?)


Do you then agree that only one pair of dogs would've be necessary?

And that subsequent variation that we see among modern dogs isn't 'evolution' or 'speciation' since they are one species?
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 01:54 am
neologist wrote:
vikorr wrote:

I'm presuming that the dinosaurs couldn't all fit in...

As for whether dinosaurs were alive at the time of Adam and Eve or during the days of Noah, consider the command God made to Noah to cover the ark inside and out with tar. (Genesis 6:14)

Possibly old dinosaur soup?


I've often wondered Christianities explanation for the lack of dinosaurs alive today...by Christianities aging of the Earth - every dinosaur died out within a few thousand years of God creating them. Every fossil was a creature that died, got buried, raised up by the earths forces all in those limited thousands of years? (...or however many years it is since written records & datable drawings came into vogue, minus the 6000years much of Christendom claims is the age of the earth...or is it 13,000 years old to JH's? or a different number?)
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 02:06 am
real life wrote:
This seems to be at odds with your earlier objection:

real life wrote:
How many Cats n Dogs made it on? If only 2...wouldn't that speak for evolution (or did two of many breeds make it on?)


Do you then agree that only one pair of dogs would've be necessary?

And that subsequent variation that we see among modern dogs isn't 'evolution' or 'speciation' since they are one species?


Objection? It was a question.

If only two pair were allowed on - then can you not see the evolutionary implications of the difference between a chiauha (or however it's spelt) and a Saint Bernard?
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 02:30 am
vikorr wrote:
real life wrote:
This seems to be at odds with your earlier objection:

real life wrote:
How many Cats n Dogs made it on? If only 2...wouldn't that speak for evolution (or did two of many breeds make it on?)


Do you then agree that only one pair of dogs would've be necessary?

And that subsequent variation that we see among modern dogs isn't 'evolution' or 'speciation' since they are one species?


Objection? It was a question.

If only two pair were allowed on - then can you not see the evolutionary implications of the difference between a chiauha (or however it's spelt) and a Saint Bernard?


If you agree that both dogs are still the same species, then what is your point?

There's no 'speciation' if they are the same species, right?
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 02:45 am
Hi real life,

Are you aware that evolutionary speciation has been proven at the micro level, though not at the macro level (that is, a species of bird becoming another species of bird, but not a bird becoming a...fish, say)?

In relation to the dogs question, you will have to work out for yourself the implications of the mutations that took place for a single pair of dogs to become the smallest dog in the world, and the largest dog in the world. As far as I can see - my answering would achieve nothing much at all.

In relation to the original paragraph, I'm lead to believe that fossil records show a timeline of evolution from one creature to another...though I've never looked into it all too much myself - evolution as a matter in and of itself is low down on my list of curiosities.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 03:20 am
It is hard to believe that in this 21st century, when we are all communicating with each other by means of machines born out of the "rationality" of science and technology, that a STOREY like Noah's Ark is argued over as though it were subject to the same "rationality".
As Sam Harris has indicated (in "The End of Faith") any individual who sinks to that level is indirectly responsible for all terrorist acts committed by those who idiotically claim similar "authority" for their own stories.
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 03:34 am
Quote:
As Sam Harris has indicated (in "The End of Faith") any individual who sinks to that level is indirectly responsible for all terrorist acts committed by those who idiotically claim similar "authority" for their own stories.


Interesting concept of responsibility.

And is every patriotic person is indirectly responsible for the actions of patriotic people from other countries?
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 05:56 am
If indeed it was a local flood and not global, wouldn't it have been much simpler, if G*&&d had told Noah to pack his worldly goods and move x number of miles to safety. With that many years advance notice, he could have gathered plenty of animals into corrals and cages, and not have to do all that work.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 06:30 am
Vikorr
Quote:
And is every patriotic person is indirectly responsible for the actions of patriotic people from other countries?


Absolutely! As Samuel Johnson said "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundral".

In so far as "religion" and "patriotism" are divisive, they are equally dysfunctional.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 07:03 am
rl quick footing , said
Quote:
Your phrase 'the present mountains' ignores the fact that they weren't always mountains, which was what my statement addressed.

Coral and sedimentary rock on mountains gives us pretty good evidence that the real estate in question wasn't always a mountain. Dig?


Yeh, I dig that youve gotten yourself into a factual dilemma

Are you now saying that THE FLOOD occured before the Rocky mountains and the Himalayas were even raised? Wow, now we are really pushing the global activities calendar up a bit. Imagine all the mountains on earth are post Flood. (even though your original argument stated that the "marine deposits " on top of mpountains implied a flood. Ill let that original argument pass because this is even more interesting
You realize that the more you dance around , the more you lose credibility

For example , if we were to accept that the mountain ranges were "post Flood", there exist, Fault lines that are synchronous with the tectonic emplacement of the himalayas as India slammed into South Asia. These faults , extend westward into the Hindu Kush and the Afghan Highlands. These same large regional faults underlie building ruins of ancient civilizations and these civilizations (although several thousand years old)
were not affected by the tectonic forces that located them (The faults move sediments of the Oligocene and Pliocene, but not the later Pleistocene and Holocene) So, using the logic that your worldview dictates,(assuming that the Flood was a defining historical moment) The Flood would have occured while the Kush and The Himalayas were undersea deposits. Then, the were raised up and faulted post flood, Then all the sediments of the Plesitocene post glaciation had occured (because the fault lines are covered over). Then and only Then were civilizations located , lived in , and then gone to ruin.

When do you feel that all this tectonism had occured while still allowing all the rest of history to have passed unaware ? I think somebody would have noticed all these mountains being raised and India slamming into Asia (all the while the Indians were going about their daily chores seemingly unaware that their borders were gaining elevation at the rate of about 10 feet per year)
Whatever tack you take with these "oceanic sediments on top of mountains" argument, you dont add any credibility to your argument overall. Youre like a liar who must always keep track of your lies because its really difficult to avoid entrapping yourself. Im not calling you a liar, I truly believe that you believe this. However, you must try to keep all the points of your argument firmly in mind. The devils in the details.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 07:42 am
Intrepid wrote:
edgarblythe wrote:
The Ark is such a ridiculous story, I don't see how even Christians buy it.


If one was to ignore the part about 2 of every animal species.... would it still be ridiculous?


Worldwide flood and animals marching two by two = magic.

If you believe in supernatural magic on an omnipotent scale, then *anything* is possible, even the fact that the physical evidence doesn't fit the story can be explained away.

Case in point:
Arella Mae wrote:
So you think that's too tough for God? Considering He created everything I'd say that was probably an easy task for Him.

If you don't believe in poofism, then the story is ridiculous at many many levels.
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Jeremiah
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 10:27 am
dadpad wrote:
It need to be remembered that in the time of the arc the known world would have been quite limited as would the number of animals

The Ark may indeed have been capable of holding 2 of every animal from the middle east.

The flood may actually have been limited to quite a localised area or been the result of a tidal wave or sea based meteor strike. Earthquake that allowed sea water to innundate a low lying area is also a possibility. The dead sea?
New Orleans is a prime example. how long did it take for water to receed?
This flood may not have been of such biblical proportions as we are led to believe.

40 days is not much over a month, many animals could live this long without eating at all. In early times 40 days was a reference to "a very long time" rather than being that exact period.

The story may have been around for hundreds of years before actually being incorporated into a bible story.

I for one am in the camp that the story, like many myths is rooted in fact, the details of which have become unclear/embelished after such a long period of time.



It was 150 or 160 days...it rained for 40 of those days.
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 12:28 pm
Hi Fresco,
Quote:
Absolutely! As Samuel Johnson said "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundral".

In so far as "religion" and "patriotism" are divisive, they are equally dysfunctional.


Glad to see the view is consistent, though I can't agree with the concept of indirect responsibility alleged in it....another persons belief in a different religion isn't even a contributing factor.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 12:43 pm
vikorr.

Harris's point about religion is that any acceptance of "irrational concepts" like "the afterlife" gives succour to those with similar views. Moreover, moderates have no "moral authority" over fundamentalists within the irrationality domain...indeed the opposite is the case!

As for "patriotism", the significant point is that geographical boundaries are arbitrary even though they may be socially reified through culture and language. In that respect, these cultural issues act in the same way as a "belief system" establishing in-groups and out-groups.
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 01:02 pm
Quote:
vikorr.

Harris's point about religion is that any acceptance of "irrational concepts" like "the afterlife" gives succour to those with similar views.


Muslims are raised with an awareness of how Christianity works, and therefore know that their religion is okay? Or visa versa? Doesn't happen that way that I know of.

Quote:
Moreover, moderates have no "moral authority" over fundamentalists within the irrationality domain...indeed the opposite is the case!


Correct. Does the use of 'but you support Christianity' (or something similar) stem from a need on the Islamic believers part to justify his religion, or is it simply an easy way to shut up the questioner?

The objection is "People find it harder to tell them (Islamic, Christian, whomever) that they are wrong, because others believe in differing Gods" - So the objection is not about one religion having indirect responsibility for anothers beliefs - but an objection to the difficulty in dealing with religious people after their beliefs are formed.

Of course, anyone detered by 'but you let them believe what you want' is rather easily distracted. The line is like an outer coat of an onion - there's many other coats underneath.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 02:20 pm
Vikorr,

The historical links are irrelevant. What matters is the tolerance of "arbitrary evidence" or "selective dismissal of evidence". Once this principle is socially accepted and substituted with the blatantly hypocritical labels of "mutual respect" or "tolerance of others beliefs" we sow the seeds of a pathogen, just like "social drug taking" has its inevitable consequences. Harris argues that because advanced weaponry now lies within the grasp of extremists, religion can no longer be dismissed as a fairly innocuous recreational drug.
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mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 03:00 pm
vikorr wrote:
Quote:
vikorr.

Harris's point about religion is that any acceptance of "irrational concepts" like "the afterlife" gives succour to those with similar views.


Muslims are raised with an awareness of how Christianity works, and therefore know that their religion is okay? Or visa versa? Doesn't happen that way that I know of.


Sure, it happens all the time with broader subjects such as belief in God or an intelligent designer. Example today...
Foxfyre wrote:
Spendi is correct that ID cannot be taught because it is understood and/or experienced individually by almost as many people as there are believers who number into the billions.
http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=3082816#3082816
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