magic, eh? magicians use illusions; it's not real.
edgarblythe wrote:Even without the animals, science has long ago shown that no such flood occurred. But, if the animals all drowned, where would they have gotten new ones?
When you consider scurvy and other limitations to storing food on ships in ancient times, they probably would not have suvived anyway.
Well, if one realizes that only a small part of the world was known at that time, it could very well have been localized rather than world wide.
raprap wrote:Intrepid wrote:Smaller than a World War 1 battleship? Try more along the lines of a aircraft carrier. 300 cubits would have been about 450 feet long.
The
HMS Dreadnought, launched in February, 1906 displaced 17,000 tons and had a waterline length of 527ft. A
Nimitz Class Aircraft Carrier displaces 78,000 tons and has a waterline length of better than 1000 feet.
So yes, the Arc was smaller that a WWI battle ship.
Rap
Fair enough. Just proves my point on size.
Jeremiah wrote:Intrepid wrote:Smaller than a World War 1 battleship? Try more along the lines of a aircraft carrier. 300 cubits would have been about 450 feet long.
Traditional "World War I Battleships" (the USS Vermont BB-20, launched in 1905, to the USS Mississippi BB-41, launched in 1917) were between 456 to 624 feet in length.
How many men and how much equipment did they hold?
Localized floods have been known to happen. Putting two of every animal on a ship has not.
curtis73 wrote:At the time of Noah's flood (regardless of whether you date it by the bible or history) there were approximately 15 million species of animals on the planet. A 450 foot boat wouldn't exactly be appropriate. Not to mention... some biblical translations called for 7 of some species and 2 of others. Even if only 1/4 of the species were numbered 7, that would mean about 46 million animals on a boat the size of a very small cruise ship.
Why do you think that this was worldwide? Why 15 million species? A few have already stated that this could have been localized since these folks did not know what the entire world consisted of. The bible deals with the mid-east in it's writings. It does not mention the rest of the world per se. Something to consider.
Arella Mae wrote:And just what makes you think he does Green Witch? The rain falls on the just and unjust alike.
I am sure that you are not referring to people in trailer parks as the unjust.
Green Witch wrote:Yeah, but those who live in trailers tend to get trashed, while those who live in mansions just need to do a little yard clean-up.
Can't blame God for the abode that people choose to live in.
fresco wrote:The "flood" was lifted by writers of the OT from the "Epic of Gigamesh" and similar sources.
If that fact is unpalatable to "bible scholars", too bad !
There are several flood stories. Just lends credibility to the fact that it happened.
Intrepid wrote:raprap wrote:Intrepid wrote:Smaller than a World War 1 battleship? Try more along the lines of a aircraft carrier. 300 cubits would have been about 450 feet long.
The
HMS Dreadnought, launched in February, 1906 displaced 17,000 tons and had a waterline length of 527ft. A
Nimitz Class Aircraft Carrier displaces 78,000 tons and has a waterline length of better than 1000 feet.
So yes, the Arc was smaller that a WWI battle ship.
Rap
Fair enough. Just proves my point on size.
Your point on size was what?
edgarblythe wrote:Localized floods have been known to happen. Putting two of every animal on a ship has not.
Sure it has. Noah did it. :wink:
curtis73 wrote:Arella Mae wrote:Oh so it's God's fault because people sin?
No, but why would a perfect god create imperfect people, then realize his mistake, and start over by committing mass murder?
. . .
God created humans to be perfect, but with freedom of choice. The imperfection is man's, not God's.
vikorr wrote:I'm presuming that the dinosaurs couldn't all fit in...
As for whether dinosaurs were alive at the time of Adam and Eve or during the days of Noah, consider the command God made to Noah to cover the ark inside and out with tar. (Genesis 6:14)
Possibly old dinosaur soup?
The event happened but the story got exaggerated. It did not cover the entire globe but was a localized event ( although massive ).
For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the land was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. (2 Peter 3:5-6)
The "world at the time" was confined to the Mesopotamian plain. Many parts of the story are symbolic and stay within a theme continued later in the Bible.
you can't have both dinosaurs AND the ark. it's one or the other. if there was ark, there were no dinosaurs - those are just a fiction made up by evolutionists.
Anyway, looking into Genesis 6:9 to 10 - Noah's account of the flood: the ark was 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide, and 30 cubits hight (140 meters long, 23 meters wide and 13.5 meters high) - they must've been jam-packed in there like sardines...but anyway.
It rained for 40 days and 40 nights and the world remained flooded for 150 days. The water continued to recede until the tenth month when tops of the moutains became visible.
After the 40 days, Noah sent out a raven to see if th waters dried up. The silly bird was flying around for the remainder of those 10 months (of course, this was possible, for the bird was fueled by God).
Now with the dove, there are some problems... "Then" (who knows when) he sent out the dove - it circled, could not find a dry place, returned. He waited 7 more days and sent her out again.She came back with an olive branch (way to grow, olive trees, in less than a week, yay! Of course, also fueled by God, so entirely plausible). Then he sent the dove out again after another 7 days and the dove ditched him- never came back. ... the timeline does not sync, but oh well.
I have more qualms about Noah himself. This just and innocent man has cursed his grandson Canaan to be "the lowest of slaves to his brothers" (Genesis 9)... Why? Well, funny you should ask. Noah got drunk on his wine. He fell asleep drunk, stark naked (the Bible does not enlighten us as to why). Ham, the father of Canaan found his father naked. He told his brothers who covered him up, without looking... When Noah "awoke from his wine" (read:sobered up) he cursed not even Ham himself, but Ham's son.... WTF?! How is that for "righteous and blameless"? Well, it's good enough for God, for it seems the slavery struck him as a grand idea.
....aaanyway, those are my few gripes with that flood story.
By the way, when I was in Nagaland- Northeastern India, the tribal people were recounting almost an identical flood story. It wasn't Noah, but the father of one of the tribes that packed a boat full of animals during a big flood. The story is much older than the history of Christianity in that area... thought it was interesting. They still wear sea shells in their costues, even though they are miles and miles away from any sea.
Intrepid wrote:curtis73 wrote:At the time of Noah's flood (regardless of whether you date it by the bible or history) there were approximately 15 million species of animals on the planet. A 450 foot boat wouldn't exactly be appropriate. Not to mention... some biblical translations called for 7 of some species and 2 of others. Even if only 1/4 of the species were numbered 7, that would mean about 46 million animals on a boat the size of a very small cruise ship.
Why do you think that this was worldwide? Why 15 million species? A few have already stated that this could have been localized since these folks did not know what the entire world consisted of. The bible deals with the mid-east in it's writings. It does not mention the rest of the world per se. Something to consider.
15 million species is the most current estimate of how many animal species would have existed on the planet at the time of Noah's flood. If you take the bible literally, the point was to wipe out everything except noah's family and two of each animal. Although the bible just deals with the middle east, there were humans and animals on almost all of the land masses at that time. If we're speaking literally as most christians do, it had to be the entire earth.
Which brings up another contradiction... how the dove found an olive branch is a bit of a quandry if everywhere was covered with water.
curtis73 wrote:Which brings up another contradiction... how the dove found an olive branch is a bit of a quandry if everywhere was covered with water.
God gave it the branch, duh.
Anyone noticed the side advertisements?
One says "Flood. Cheap prices, fast delivery"...or something to that effect.
farmerman wrote:RL said..."It is commonly thought that all the continents were at one time united.
IF that were the case during the Flood, then obviously a much smaller amount of water would be required to cover 'all the earth' ( i.e. all the land , as the word could easily be translated
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H0776&Version=kjv )
In addition
IFmany of the areas which at present are high mountain ranges were much lower, the same is true -- much less water required. And again, scientific evidence exists that many of the high mountains include large areas of sedimentary rock and even deposits of coral (as on Everest, the Earth's tallest mtn) They had to be low enough at some point in history to be underwater, whether that was during the Flood or even afterward. "...
The operative words in all this is "IF".
EVidence does not support RL's position, in fact, all the evidence refutes his "IFs"
RL's last statement assumes that all these oceanic deposits and fossils were deposited on the tops of present mountains. The evidence does not support this outrageous stamenet either. It strongly refutes it.
No, my statement assumes nothing of the kind.
Your phrase 'the present mountains' ignores the fact that they weren't always mountains, which was what my statement addressed.
Coral and sedimentary rock on mountains gives us pretty good evidence that the real estate in question wasn't always a mountain. Dig?
