OGIONIK, you're an obviously angry young man who appears to hate and despise this country. Why don't you do us all a favor and head off to greener pastures?
Canada. I hear Canada is fine this time of year. And they are always looking for America-hating folks such as yourself. You'd fit right in.
Bye bye now.
there you go again. i compare TWO countries,and you scapegoat.
unless your mentally retarded, I AM AGAINST VIOLENCE IN ANY FORM.
im sorry my ideas are too complex for you to understand. peace? equality? what are those in comparison to your obvious support of violent overthrow of third world countries.
how does it feel? exactly. i use america as an example BECAUSE I HAVE MORE DATA ON THIS COUNTRY, obviously. it is where i live SO I HAVE MORE CONCERN FOR THIS ONE THAN ANY OTHER.
so can anyone explain why america is "right" when it supports murder and theft, and everyone else is "wrong" when they do the same thing?
thats what i thought. thanks for provin me right again though.
Well, nothing in that post alters the sentiments of my prior post.
after thinking about your question OG, id have to say the german nazi party was worse, the genocide they participated in was just the psychotic goal of a wannabe emperor. the german state was in a perfect position to hold onto what it had and it was a pretty hefty industrial power if im not mistaken, maybe from ww1 they lost alot of momentum but w/e.
americans formed a country.(whats more we formed an "industrialized" country)
And we provided an economic stimulus to other countries, we at least formed a unified country, the nazis were merely pointlessly murdering for no reason, we at least made a profit. though im sure someone profited off the death of the jews, gypsies etc.. i dont even think they gained any territory at all...
but yeah, nazis were just psychos, americans at least did something with their massacre of the indians. we at least had a goal.
Quote:And we provided an economic stimulus to other countries, we at least formed a unified country, the nazis were merely pointlessly murdering for no reason, we at least made a profit. though im sure someone profited off the death of the jews, gypsies etc.. i dont even think they gained any territory at all...
Did Germany invade Europe just for the fun of it? And here I thought they were trying to unify Europe under their wings...minus the Jews of course. Would eventually have drawn a hefty profit one would presume.
OGIONIK wrote:is america or isnt it just as bad as nazis for extermination of a people? i say yes, everyone else says "but this, the nazis did that " wtf EVER.
bs, im callin you out,your complete bs.
How exactly is it bullshit for people to show how bad the nazis were in comparison to the US when you're asking people to compare the nazis to the US?
OGIONIK wrote:
but yeah, nazis were just psychos, americans at least did something with their massacre of the indians. we at least had a goal.
The vast majority of Nazis were not psychos. They were often well educated people who enjoyed music, art, sports, good food, in addition to loving their families and their pets. Do you honestly believe the Nazis agenda had no stated goal? Hitler was very clear about his goal to exterminate those he found objectionable. He wrote about it extensively before he was in office. Surely you have heard of "Mein Kampf "? Everything about The Final Solution was well researched and documented by the Nazis' . Why do you think we know so much about what they did and how they did it? Really Ogionik, if you want to make a point at least learn something about your topic.
thats more like it
thats mighty sad, but the US didnt say, "hey indians kill em all ! yeah!" we just wanted to steal their land.
the nazis based their agenda off the idea that jews were somehow inferior, americans might have thought the same thing, maybe not as bad as the conquistadors(but that was mostly religious beliefs, i think the clergy actually advocated treating the natives as humans, under god but i havent relly read on that civilization yet), but still. we gave them reserves to live on, nazis gave the jews death camps, there was no point in killing the jews, it was all propaganda, they were a scapegoat. indians were an enemy. they stood between settlers and their new land. nazis, were just between hitler and nothing, it was mindless stupidity. he was just a wanna be "tough guy"
im sorry you are wrong, if you support senseless murder YOU ARE A PSYCHO.
i.e. anyone supporting the nazis with the knowledge of what they were doing was a psycho, they had no compassion. no feelings, just an idiots following the leader. if someone told me i could kill people for being a certain "type", and i ran around and killed 47 lets say , north koreans, i would most likely be institutionalized. for you guessed it, be mentally unstable. the nazis arent special.
to me, the americans were at war with the indians, the nazis were just mindless murderers. pointless, i mean they might have won if they didnt focus on killing jews, i mean really. what a waste of resources and manpower.
then again, maybe by the jews attracting hitlers hatred, they possibly saved europe from a german empire? wow it really is sad on both sides. but life is war is it not? predators prey on the weak and it keeps things in order pretty much. germany was kept in check. britain lost alot of wealth though
your right i dont know much about hitlers plans for empire, i dont even think he had any clue himself. but to throw in some commentary, after the expensive ass war, how was he supposed to keep his empire together? there would be no wealth, there would be debt. debt and more debt, and the bigger the empire the faster and more exponentially it would increase.
it wouldnt be like in america where everyone was pretty much on the same page from the start.
unless the countries he invaded wanted to join his empire, maybe then , but not even....
damnit, im having trouble with differences between ww1 and ww2, im forgetting the economic impacts, i dont know if it was ww1 or 2 that britain lost i forget how much of its pound... thats so scientific isnt it? haha w/e...
You obviously don't know how much Hitler planned on and successful stole from the Jews (and others). He looted art, land and general goods to the extreme all over Europe. Jews were told they were being relocated to new towns and that they should bring their possessions to the train stations. Once there, the Nazis confiscated their goods and tossed the people in the cattle cars for a ride to the death camps. Once dead the Nazis even went to the trouble to remove their gold teeth or filings. I told you Nazis were not psychos because the reality is that many people are capable of doing what they did given the right social pressures.
Really Og, I suggest you start by reading "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer and renting a DVD of the documentary "Shoah". You might learn something and I think you will find both sources interesting, especially since you mention on another thread that your formal education was lacking. I'm not defending white America's treatment of it's native population, it was truly horrible, but I think you need to understand what WWII was all about.
If you still want to compare Jewish death marches to Indian death marches, I suggest you also read "Trail of Tears" by Gloria Jahoda. Warning: you might need to go on anti-depressants after you finish.
Re: whos worse ? nazis or americans?
OGIONIK wrote:Jim wrote:OGIONIK wrote: the u.s. destroyed an entire civilization completely.
Please enlighten a poor ignorant soul.
Exactly what civilization did we completely destroy?
because native americans maintained control of any land at all. jackass.
Jackass, huh? I guess this isn't the thread to go to for an intelligent exchange of ideas.
The last history I read on the subject suggested that upwards of 90% of Native Americans had already succumed to European diseases they had no immunity against by the time English settlers arrived in what would one day be the United States. And the last time I drove through Arizona, Native Americans are still there, and doing quite nicely with their casinos. No, their culture is not the same today as it was 500+ years ago. Just like British and French and German cultures are no longer the same as they were 500+ years ago either. That is Mr. Darwin's law, my friend. Adapt to the changes or die.
Now there have been cases in history where cultures were completely exterminated. The Romans did a pretty good number on the Carthaginians - pull down the buildings, burn the rubble, slaughter the inhabitants, sow salt through the ashes, and pronounce a curse on anyone who would ever dare build there again. The Muslims in the 7th century exterminated the Sassanian culture. It's gone. Completely gone.
Yes, the Native Americans got the short end of the stick, but they weren't exterminated like the Carthaginians, and their culture wasn't exterminated like the Sassanians. You and I can't go hunt whales or walruses, or even collect bald eagle feathers, but all these activities are protected by law, IF you are a Native American.
Green Witch wrote:You obviously don't know how much Hitler planned on and successful stole from the Jews (and others). He looted art, land and general goods to the extreme all over Europe. Jews were told they were being relocated to new towns and that they should bring their possessions to the train stations. Once there, the Nazis confiscated their goods and tossed the people in the cattle cars for a ride to the death camps. Once dead the Nazis even went to the trouble to remove their gold teeth or filings. I told you Nazis were not psychos because the reality is that many people are capable of doing what they did given the right social pressures.
Really Og, I suggest you start by reading "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer and renting a DVD of the documentary "Shoah". You might learn something and I think you will find both sources interesting, especially since you mention on another thread that your formal education was lacking. I'm not defending white America's treatment of it's native population, it was truly horrible, but I think you need to understand what WWII was all about.
If you still want to compare Jewish death marches to Indian death marches, I suggest you also read "Trail of Tears" by Gloria Jahoda. Warning: you might need to go on anti-depressants after you finish.
ive already read trail of tears. ww2 was about profits, people will not fight for free. simple economics. hitler was indeed psycho. lol , after realising what you just said, i understand it is pointless to preach about non violence to my country, apparently its acceptable to kill "if everyone elese is doing it"
that is really sad, im not attacking you, but agreeing with your observation. social pressure overrides morality apparently..
damn, so i should give in to social pressure then? im sorry but no, if they knew they were helping to commit genocide on an entire people, they arent sane. each individual chooses for himself. they chose to participate, as i choose NOT to participate in american warfare.
i think i found the problem with humanity. monkey see monkey do! fitting in every sense.... hahaha. tsk tsk.
O.K., the U.S. did not treat the Native American population fairly. We (prior generations) wanted to settle the west, and bring the railroad along with the settlers. This meant the buffalo had to stop trampling the railroad tracks. So, the buffalo was killed, and that was the main source of food for the Native Americans. So, from the perspective of 19th century America, the Native Americans impeded the popular concept of progress. And, yes, the United States at that time had a skewed concept of equality, with much prejudice heaped on immigrants, women, Blacks also to be honest.
Now, the Nazis came up with a whole concept of who deserved to live a worthwhile life, and who would be a slave, just like the pagan Romans of two millenia earlier. So, Jews, Poles, Russians, Gypsies, Blacks could be slaves, while Aryans (the term borrowed from India) could be the overlords.
So, I believe comparing the two historical occurences (WWII and the U.S. adversarial relationship with Native Americans) is not just based on wanting land (the U.S.) or racism (the Nazis). There was two different motivations, and should not be compared.
Also, the Final Solution was a planned extermination of a group of quite assimilated people in Europe. The only thing they never did was assimilate into the majority religion of Europe. The Holocaust though included another five to six million Slavs, Gypsies, outspoken Clergy who wound up as slave labor, until they died from the poor accomodations in the slave labor camps.
So, the Nazis had reinvented pagan Rome, and the United States was pushing aside an indigenous people. This was also done in Australia, and likely by the Celts when they got pushed into Hibernia by the Romans (have you seen any wee people lately?), and the Spaniards when they populated Argentina (not all South American countries have a thriving Mestizo population).
But, if anyone can cavalierly equate the fanatic racism of the Nazis with United States history, I would guess that individual hasn't discussed this with many Jews. Also, while there was state sponsored anti-Semitism in Europe for a thousand years, leading up to the Nazis, there has never been any government approved anti-Semitism in the United States. In other words, any history of Europe cannot be compared to any history of the United States, when talking to someone that's Jewish. Europe still has anti-Semitism; the United States just has some people "that may not like Jews" (that's a person's right).
Foofie wrote:any history of Europe cannot be compared to any history of the United States, when talking to someone that's Jewish.
Unless the person talking to the jew is a native american, of course.
kickycan wrote:Foofie wrote:any history of Europe cannot be compared to any history of the United States, when talking to someone that's Jewish.
Unless the person talking to the jew is a native american, of course.
Yeah, yeah. What I meant was most American Jews, or most Jews in general, know that the United States has an unblemished history when it comes to the government not being officially anti-Semitic, as was some governments/principalities in Europe over the past millenium. The Nazis were only the worst manifestation of anti-Semitism in Europe.
I'm not making light of the mistreatment of Native Americans in the United States. It was a totally different "wrong," in that the Native Americans are an indigenous population that was mistreated. And the United States is not the only country that mistreated an indigenous population. But, since the pagan Romans, the Nazis were the only regime that conquered peoples, and made them slaves. Possibly there's another, but that's not for this thread.
Not so fast on the unblemished history of the US when it comes to anti-Semitism. Let's start with Peter Stuyvesant, then eventually ease our way to immigration policies during WWII. I have no time this AM to research details but beware any time you toss words like "unblemished" around whenever you're talking about history.
jespah wrote:Not so fast on the unblemished history of the US when it comes to anti-Semitism. Let's start with Peter Stuyvesant, then eventually ease our way to immigration policies during WWII. I have no time this AM to research details but beware any time you toss words like "unblemished" around whenever you're talking about history.
Peter Stuyvesant was
Dutch. There was no United States when New Amsterdam received 15 or so Jewish families that came from Recife, Brazil. And, they were let in, since Peter Stuyvesant then solicited the opinion of the Dutch East India officials back in Holland, and they said let the Jews stay. (Possibly because Jews in Holland may have been threatening to liquidate their holdings in the Dutch East India company if those families in New Amsterdam were not allowed to stay?)
My point is, any
supposed anti-Semitism, in what is now known as the United States, were individual acts by individuals with their own motivations (perhaps not even based on anti-Semitism, but perhaps some other motivation; it was only
perceived as anti-Semitism by some people).
Anti-Semitism was never a state sponsored position, either officially, or unofficially, in the United States. Compare that to the "official"ghettoization of Jews in some parts of Europe! Or, the Czar's having a "pale of settlement" where Jews could live.
And, not letting all the German Jews into the United States, prior to WWII, was not an official anti-Semitic policy. It was, in my opinion, just the current immigration policy that wasn't going to have an exception.
Possibly because there was a less than philo-Semitic popular culture then. But that doesn't equate to an official anti-Semitic government policy. The American Jews already in the United States were enjoying all the rights and benefits of citizens.
And, from my own perspective, I hope no one is an anti-Foofite!
I am well aware that Stuyvesant was Dutch. I was merely illustrating the fact that on what eventually became American soil, there certainly was and is antisemitism (and I'm sorry I did not make that clearer). And on occasion, it was actually official.
Try these links on for size (and this is just quick Googling):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_United_States
Just do a find on the word
official
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism
Just do a find on the word
vagabonds, then find the word
Paducah
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_1741500824_2/United_States_People.html
Do a find on the word
householders
http://www.eagleton.rutgers.edu/e-gov/e-politicalarchive-preWWII.htm
Do a find on the name
Wagner
I will not argue with you that the US has been
better for the Jews than Europe. Of course it has been, but keep in mind also that the history here is not as long as it is there. Perhaps in another few hundred years the US of that future will catch up to the Europe of today in acts of official antisemitism. What I
do object to, though, is your statement that
Foofie wrote:Anti-Semitism was never a state sponsored position, either officially, or unofficially, in the United States
It was. I hate that about our history, but it was. Deny it all you like, but it was.
Try this film on for size if you'd like more information:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/index.html
And a suggestion, next time, when you throw around words like "never" and "always", please remember that they can be shattered with just one counterexample. Using those terms just kills your arguments, particularly when talking about something like this because it was such a cinch to find counterexamples. You are right that
official antisemitism was so much less here than it was there, but when you lard up your statements with indefensible words like "never" and "always", you call the entire credence of your argument into question. Just a little friendly, unsolicited advice, feel free to take it or leave it.
You have Nazis and then you have Germans. You Have ????? and then you have Americans.
The Nazi version of Americans Has no name yet, That I know of, but their history is well documented but ignored or denied.
Genocide, torture, subversion of democracy, slave labor, sabotage, assassination, state sponsored terror are all widely practiced American (secret) policies. In fact they are an American way.
The Nazi thing was short lived compared to that part of America history that could be compared to American crimes against humanity.
You could start with IndoChina in the 60s, South America (El Salvador, Nicaragua) in the 80s.
But the list is endless.
The Banana republic, We invented it but when it comes to the Nazis we can't wait to denounce it and show how we are nothing like the evil Nazis in public but in fact we have a very black and perpetuating history worse then the Nazis.
But as long as we just ignore and avoid it we are still one nation under god, At least in our own mind.
Even the historians play their part in this mass hypocrisy, They just leave out the bad parts in school so we are all on the same page as we roll forward together.
