Baby gamblers

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I know that sounds silly but this is a serious question.

You know those claw-grabber games you see inside the doors of grocery stores and other places? The things that have stuffed toys or candy or jewelry or some such nonsense. You feed it a dollar or a quarter or somesuch and manipulate the claw to drop and grab a prize. Those things.

Mo (who is now seven) had developed a very unhealthy obsession with them.

I no longer let him play them -- EVER. I had good advice to not let him play them -- EVER. He's been pretty good about it. Quite some time has passed.

Today Mo was out with Mr. B and there was a claw-grabber deal there and Mr. B relented because Mo seemed to be past his obsession and now it is back full blown. Mr. B has made the appropriate apoligies and such; they were out having fun, doing something they both enjoy. I think Mr. B was curious about testing Mo. (I'm not mad about this because I've been curious too so let's not even go there.)

It backfired.

To me it seems like gambling -- the "one more try and I'm sure to win" mentality.

However, I don't gamble so I don't really know.

It is kind of freaking us out.

Do you think I have anything to really worry about?

Thanks!

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Boomer, I never thought of those toy machines as gambling, but you are right. The thrill of gambling is the journey to the outcome and that's what those machines are all about. The addiction is the adrenaline rush a person gets in playing, not in the win. It's the same for people with shopping addictions, they don't care about the new shoes or the new lamp - it's the thrill of the quest. These machines fit those descriptions. I doubt Mo really lusts after another teddy bear.

I think you have good reason to be concerned, although I have no good advice as to what to do about it with a child. I do know that children who pick up addictions when they are young have a harder time shaking them as they get older. Maybe Gambler's Anonymous would have some suggestions.

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The thing is, the crane games aren't random. The computer is programmed to allow a win every x games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JejiJ-RgLVc

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Oh yeah, kids are all fascinated with the claw games. The first time SonofEva saw one of those machines was in a restaurant. I think our boy was about 5 at the time. Hubby made him sit through our entire dinner and watch other people playing it. He told him to count the number of times he saw someone win, and the number of times he saw someone lose.

When we got ready to leave, he asked him for the totals. SonofEva hadn't seen a single person win. Hubby asked him, "Now, don't you wish that was all YOUR money they lost?!"

He figured out real quick that the restaurant had that machine there to take your money.

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Re: Baby gamblers

boomerang wrote:

To me it seems like gambling -- the "one more try and I'm sure to win" mentality.

However, I don't gamble so I don't really know.

It is kind of freaking us out.

Do you think I have anything to really worry about?

I was a professional gambler for a short time, and my biggest problem with the claw machines are that they are a very bad gamble. Hell you could buy the items much more easily. It's a very "house friendly" gamble.

But yeah, they use the same variable schedule of reinforcement that most gambling uses to hook people. If it weren't a gamble it'd be a vending machine so it's a lot like gambling (and a lot in life is).

But maybe he can learn from the machine. Do you think that you could teach him why it's a dumb machine by letting him play it and showing him that it costs more of his money than to buy the items himself? Is he old enough to understand being ripped off? Is he too compulsive for it to matter?

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Boom, IMO better nip it in the bud again.

Funny thing, I never thought about gambling one way or the other. Never had any desire to try it.

Then, I went on one of those day cruises where the only thing to do was gamble.

By the end of the evening, I was hooked, it happened that fast....the whole "one more time" thing.

Fortunately, the next day it wasn't worth it to seek out other opportunities, so I forgot about it.

Years later, some other situation, and I quickly felt that strong pull. That time I just walked away, thinking "wow, now I see how people get into it, I could get addicted really quickly"

Haven't bought a scratch off ticket for years, but when I did, I was like "Hey, I just won $5.00! I'll buy 5 more tickets!"

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Re: Baby gamblers

boomerang wrote:

I know that sounds silly but this is a serious question.

You know those claw-grabber games you see inside the doors of grocery stores and other places? The things that have stuffed toys or candy or jewelry or some such nonsense. You feed it a dollar or a quarter or somesuch and manipulate the claw to drop and grab a prize. Those things.

Mo (who is now seven) had developed a very unhealthy obsession with them.

I no longer let him play them -- EVER. I had good advice to not let him play them -- EVER. He's been pretty good about it. Quite some time has passed.

Today Mo was out with Mr. B and there was a claw-grabber deal there and Mr. B relented because Mo seemed to be past his obsession and now it is back full blown. Mr. B has made the appropriate apoligies and such; they were out having fun, doing something they both enjoy. I think Mr. B was curious about testing Mo. (I'm not mad about this because I've been curious too so let's not even go there.)

It backfired.

To me it seems like gambling -- the "one more try and I'm sure to win" mentality.

However, I don't gamble so I don't really know.

It is kind of freaking us out.

Do you think I have anything to really worry about?

Thanks!

Hell.

Damned if I know.

Can you say more about what you mean by "obsessed"?????

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Boomer--

Mo is going to have to live with temptation all his life. Those claw machines are money sinks, but with parental devotion you can turn them into educational money sinks.

Side story here: A 19 month old child of a rather limited mother crawled up inside the machine at the local diner and had to be removed by the volunteer firemen.

Forewarned is forearmed. You know Mo is susceptible to that adrenaline rush and you can help him deal with it.

Can you find a glitzy PR picture of Los Vegas somewhere on the web and have a meaningful dialogue?

"Doesn't that look exciting?"

"Yep."

"Do you know where the money came from to build an exciting place like that."

"Nope."

"From the losers."

"Oh."

Good luck. Educational opportunities can be so damned tedious.

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Thank you all for your replies.

You know, I think he could be too compulsive for it to matter.

The first big event with one of these machines was after Mo had helped me with the recycling. I save up the cans and bottles and let him cash them in. We had cashed in about $6 worth of bottles and went in the store where they had one of these machines and he wanted to try it.

And he won.

On the first try.

And he was hooked.

The next time we cashed in the recycling he wanted to try again and he lost. And lost. And lost. And I continued to let him lose until all his money was gone thinking that he would figure out that the machine was a trick and not want to play it anymore.

Wrong.

He completely melted down in anger and frustration. I had to drag him out of the store while he screamed and cried for just one more try.

Once he got calmed down I explained that the machine was a trick to steal little kid's money and make them mad and sad and that we would no longer be playing their game.

But every time we walk past one of those things I can see him positively vibrate wanting to try it.

Yesterday Mr. B took Mo roller skating. After skating for a while they went to the arcade to get a drink and take a break and Mr. B gave Mo a couple of bucks for games. Mo promptly spent all the money on the claw game. He came back asking Mr. B for more money. Mr. B said no. Mo cried and pleaded. Mr. B said no and said if Mo asked again that they would leave without skating anymore.

Mo asked again and they came home.

Mr. B's only previous experience with the claw game was my description of what happened before. He learned why I take such a hard line on the claw game.

I know those games must be popular because you see them everywhere but it seems to me that Mo's reaction to them is extreme.

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Mo's reaction is extreme--but that is what childhood is for.

Also, parents are for saying, "No"--and sticking to it.

You're going through such educational hell!

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There is no luck or skill in these games. They are actually rigged to only dipense a certain percentage of prizes. I know you know that but Mo needs to recognise it as well.

http://www.clawmachinesdirect.com/
Claw machines and crane machines also known as skill cranes are arguably the most profitable arcade pieces for sale of all time. Claw machines provide the sense of having control over their game by the player, together with the thrill and excitement of winning a much valued prize.

In order for these games to remain profitable for the operator of the machine as well as enjoyable to the player, these machines must be operated correctly. This means keeping the game well lit, clean inside and out, toys or plush animals well placed and organized and most importantly, making sure that the game provides the correct amount of winnings to the player. These machines must be viewed as a vending machine, dispensing product out at a profitable rate for the operator while providing adequate reward for the player. Generally the machine is most profitable when it gives out a winning percentage to revenue of 30-35%. The machine should give back to the player merchandise equivalent to one third the value of the total machine revenue. If the machine takes in $100 then the prizes dispensed should be equal in value to $30 to $35.00.

You can buy toy crane games for $50.00 or so. Familiarity breeds contempt. Possibly hire one fpr a couple of weeks? I dont know, ask a psycologist if this would be worth while.

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Boomer, do you know Dave & Busters? That's a mini gambling hall for
kids. You buy for a certain amount tokens and let the kids loose to play.
They have tons of different machines, and computer games to play with.
If they're skilled enough the kids win tickets they can exchange for
toys. Similar to Chuck E Cheese, except more sophisticated and a greater
variety of different machines.

I think, these places are precursors for true gambling. However, I'm not
so sure if children can get already addicted to gambling. I see that excitement in all children present at such places, and I don't think that
Mo is an isolated case here. He is just like all children, he wants to play
and he's begging for money in order to do so.

My Godson visited these game arcades on a regular basis until he was
around 11 years old. He loved it and his parents let him be there almost daily. Today he is 14 years old and has no longer any interest in them.

I really think that's not so unusual, particularly for boys. They play
until they lose interest in it. Prohibiting it makes it all the more interesting.

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boomerang wrote:

Thank you all for your replies.

You know, I think he could be too compulsive for it to matter.

The first big event with one of these machines was after Mo had helped me with the recycling. I save up the cans and bottles and let him cash them in. We had cashed in about $6 worth of bottles and went in the store where they had one of these machines and he wanted to try it.

And he won.

On the first try.

And he was hooked.

The next time we cashed in the recycling he wanted to try again and he lost. And lost. And lost. And I continued to let him lose until all his money was gone thinking that he would figure out that the machine was a trick and not want to play it anymore.

Wrong.

He completely melted down in anger and frustration. I had to drag him out of the store while he screamed and cried for just one more try.

Once he got calmed down I explained that the machine was a trick to steal little kid's money and make them mad and sad and that we would no longer be playing their game.

But every time we walk past one of those things I can see him positively vibrate wanting to try it.

Yesterday Mr. B took Mo roller skating. After skating for a while they went to the arcade to get a drink and take a break and Mr. B gave Mo a couple of bucks for games. Mo promptly spent all the money on the claw game. He came back asking Mr. B for more money. Mr. B said no. Mo cried and pleaded. Mr. B said no and said if Mo asked again that they would leave without skating anymore.

Mo asked again and they came home.

Mr. B's only previous experience with the claw game was my description of what happened before. He learned why I take such a hard line on the claw game.

I know those games must be popular because you see them everywhere but it seems to me that Mo's reaction to them is extreme.

Blimey.

I honestly haven't come across a parent talking about such an issue before....kids "addicted" to computer games, yes.

I'd be suggesting letting him go with it, hoping familiarity breeds both wisdom and contempt....as long as he only uses HIS money, experiences the reality of what it means to lose all his money down a damn kid-trap by not being "topped-up" with money when he wants to buy other stuff, and being stopped from playing for a while if he has melt-downs......

but I am truly wondering if he is yet able cognitively to "get" the dynamics of the intermittent reinforcement scam....and I honestly do not know if letting him play the thing might contribute to a gambling problem later in life....

Also, as you know, Mo needs to be protected from stuff he just can't handle.....you know, structure, structure, structure.....also, YOU need not to have to handle any more melt downs than are necessary and unavoidable.

My instinct is to be a bit worried by the "forbidden fruit" thing, and to try to set up some sort of situation where he is supported in learning about this issue.

(However, if your "good advice" not to let him do it came from a competent professional who knows Mo well, I would ignore the hell out of anything I have to say.)

What I am imagining is some sort of structured system where, perhaps, Mo is allowed to choose to use a specified amount of his pocket money once every, say, four weeks. With the usual spiel, you know "This is a scam, and it's our job to protect you from being exploited, but we know you love this, and we want you to be able to enjoy it IF YOU CAN HANDLE IT...if you can't, we love you enough to stop you from doing it until you are ready"

Ready meaning:

a. He only uses the money set aside for the bloody thing.

b. He does not beg you to give him more money.

c. He does not beg to play it on non-play weeks.

c. He does not "melt down"...or he takes charge of a melt-down by letting you help him go to a quiet place until he calms

I mean, a couple of warnings would be fair re these things, but basically the ground rules are stuck to...

Hellifino......but those are my thoughts such as they are......

I am likely to see a friend on the weekend who loves to read research as though it is chocolate, so I will see if she has any thoughts.....

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Thanks again, all!

I've been thinking about this a lot. Mo loves contraptions and he especially loves claws - the claw on the garbage truck, the little claw robot thing toy, the fireplace claw he modified to retrive balls from the hedge - so maybe it's just Mo's love of claws and contraptions that make this such a big deal.

He loves games of all sorts - computer games, skee ball, pool, foosball, airhockey, board games, sports, pinball, arcade games -- all of that.

But he's able to lose and walk away without going batshit.

With this game he can't.

Which is why I think about it and wonder how it might be more like gambling than other types of games.

I'm not anti-gambling. I used to meet my sister in Vegas for weekends and we would blow what we could afford to lose. But I do know that "rush" that comes from gambling -- the "next time" deal.

I used to work for a very wealthy man who owned casinos. It's no secret how he got so rich. He always told me only idiots gamble by using a machine.

I was one of those idiots on an infrequent, intermittent, and controlled basis.

I don't want Mo to be a gambler.

I worry.

(And yes, it was a qualified professional who told me it was an absolute shame that he won the first time he tried and to keep him away from the unholy machines.)

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