religious harmony

Flaja
An interesting question.
I was born in India in a Hindu family.
Hindu has got all kind of gods.
Beside India is a home of all recognized religions besides unknow varieties.
Most of the members of parliament are from Hindu heritage. and each of the member belongs to a different god.
India had taken a secular path to admire, appreciate, uphold all gods and the parliamentarians are at liberty to follow the norms of indian constitution while keeping his God in his heart.
I presume USA's constitution had never used the word GOD in any section.
So it is irrelevant in politics and parliament activities to drag the invisible, omnipotent and all-pervasive god to support anything.
This is my humble view

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Ramafuchs wrote:

Flaja
An interesting question.
I was born in India in a Hindu family.
Hindu has got all kind of gods.
Beside India is a home of all recognized religions besides unknow varieties.
Most of the members of parliament are from Hindu heritage. and each of the member belongs to a different god.
India had taken a secular path to admire, appreciate, uphold all gods and the parliamentarians are at liberty to follow the norms of indian constitution while keeping his God in his heart.
I presume USA's constitution had never used the word GOD in any section.
So it is irrelevant in politics and parliament activities to drag the invisible, omnipotent and all-pervasive god to support anything.
This is my humble view

The U.S. Constitution, as it was written by the Constitutional Convention, concludes with, "Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names."

The only person for whom the dating style, "in the Year of our Lord" has ever been used is Jesus Christ. If you are a legitimate Christian, Jesus Christ is God.

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Flaja
I am not a constitutional lawyer.
But as a normal rational citizen I am of the opinion that God should keep aloof from POLITICS and Politics should keep away from God.

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It is worth noting at this juncture that neither is Rama-lama-ding-dong a citizen of the United States.

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flaja wrote:

Ramafuchs wrote:
Flaja
An interesting question.
I was born in India in a Hindu family.
Hindu has got all kind of gods.
Beside India is a home of all recognized religions besides unknow varieties.
Most of the members of parliament are from Hindu heritage. and each of the member belongs to a different god.
India had taken a secular path to admire, appreciate, uphold all gods and the parliamentarians are at liberty to follow the norms of indian constitution while keeping his God in his heart.
I presume USA's constitution had never used the word GOD in any section.
So it is irrelevant in politics and parliament activities to drag the invisible, omnipotent and all-pervasive god to support anything.
This is my humble view

The U.S. Constitution, as it was written by the Constitutional Convention, concludes with, "Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names."

The only person for whom the dating style, "in the Year of our Lord" has ever been used is Jesus Christ. If you are a legitimate Christian, Jesus Christ is God.

First, let me paste something from Wikipedia:

The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.", should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart.

O.K., I pledged allegiance to the flag in school, every morning, for many years. So did all my fellow classmates. I wasn't concerned about whether I was mentioning God in the pledge. It made me identify more strongly with being an American. It didn't make me identify more strongly with any religious beliefs.

So, I daily pledged to the American flag, and mentioned God as part of that pledge. I don't think it made me any more in harmony with all religions, or less in harmony. I consider religious people brainwashed, only because there are so many variations on the theme of God. They all can't be correct (and I noticed you didn't forget to mention that "legitimate Christians" believe that Jesus Christ is God. However, I thought he was only supposed to be one manifestation of God, within the Trinity. I would guess the affirmation that Jesus Christ is God reflects the fact that Protestants pray directly to Jesus?)

Regardless, there is plenty of religious harmony in the U.S. But, people do prefer their own beliefs, and if that represents a particular faith, then that's what they feel most harmonious with. Where is there a lack of religious harmony?

I, personally, believe that harmony can better be effected through emphasis on our all being Americans in the U.S. (I'm obviously ignoring illegals), since we are going to remain different religions, and the religions are not going to meld into one U.S. faith; however, we are all Americans, so why not accentuate what we all have in common - our American citizenship? I don't think different religions makes for disharmony; perhaps if you see disharmony between religions it reflects that religion may have become less of a personal belief system?

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Flaja,

You are not only ignoring illegal people (and ironically some of the illegal people have been saying the pledge of Allegiance thousands of time since they entered the first grade and you still can't have compassion for them)....

You are also ignoring American citizens who don't feel comfortable with the pledge. These include

- Atheists who don't believe in any god.
- Jewish people who have long been made to feel like outsiders in a "Christian nation" and see this as another way to make them "assimilate".
- And Christians who take the Bible very seriously... particularly the part that says not to take oaths.

Your idea of harmony seems to be to force anyone who may be different to fall into line.

Yes... the old "harmony through bludgeoning trick" never fails.

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Re: religious harmony

flaja wrote:

Would it be constitutional to require every person that works for the federal government to take an oath whereby they pledge full faith and credit to any and all gods recognized by the American People in the name of promoting religious harmony?

no, it is unconstitutional

Article VI, section 3, and states that:

" ...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

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Re: religious harmony

kuvasz wrote:

flaja wrote:
Would it be constitutional to require every person that works for the federal government to take an oath whereby they pledge full faith and credit to any and all gods recognized by the American People in the name of promoting religious harmony?

no, it is unconstitutional

Article VI, section 3, and states that:

" ...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

Does a civil service job constitute an office of public trust? Isn't this term used only for elected or appointed offices?

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ebrown_p wrote:

Flaja,

You are not only ignoring illegal people (and ironically some of the illegal people have been saying the pledge of Allegiance thousands of time since they entered the first grade and you still can't have compassion for them)....

You are also ignoring American citizens who don't feel comfortable with the pledge. These include

- Atheists who don't believe in any god.
- Jewish people who have long been made to feel like outsiders in a "Christian nation" and see this as another way to make them "assimilate".
- And Christians who take the Bible very seriously... particularly the part that says not to take oaths.

Your idea of harmony seems to be to force anyone who may be different to fall into line.

Yes... the old "harmony through bludgeoning trick" never fails.

Were you directing your thoughts to me? I brought up the Pledge of Allegiance.

Where did you see school children that are rabid atheists, to the point of not wanting to say the Pledge of Allegiance?

Where did you get the idea that American Jews are alienated from the Pledge of Allegiance? There's no mention of Jesus in the Pledge of Allegiance; it's really a very philo-Semitic "pledge," since only God is mentioned (the same one they worship). For your information, Jews in general, don't feel like outsiders in the U.S.; they only feel like outsiders when interacting with anti-Semites. There has never been state sponsored anti-Semitism in the U.S.; but there has been state sponsored anti-Semitism in many of the countries American Jews came from originally (meaning grandparents, or great grandparents, or farther back in a family). Where did you get your misinformation?

And, there has never been a state sponsored attempt to assimilate/convert them to Christianity. Your claim that Jews "see the Pledge of Allegiance as another way to make them assimilate" is totally false. They have assimilated. That's why there are politicians that are Jewish. Are you remembering an old newsreel of the Lower East Side pushcart peddlars in the early 20th century? I think many Jews would find your statement offensive, since the inference is that only by converting to Christianity can American Jews "assimilate" into American society. Totally false.

Considering you know so much about American Jews, what is your professed faith, may I ask?

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Re: religious harmony

flaja wrote:

Does a civil service job constitute an office of public trust? Isn't this term used only for elected or appointed offices?

would you hire anyone in the public sector whom you did not trust?

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ebrown_p wrote:

Flaja,

You are not only ignoring illegal people (and ironically some of the illegal people have been saying the pledge of Allegiance thousands of time since they entered the first grade and you still can't have compassion for them)....

Hey, who is not having compassion for illegals that have children that go to school and say the Pledge of Allegiance? Who brought up illegals as part of this thread on harmony between religions? Illegals are not part of this thread.

Why not bring up any other "group," who might have said the Pledge of Allegiance during their school days? What's your point? My point is the Pledge of Allegiance was a way to make school children understand that as Americans, we have a common focus in this country. I think focussing on kinship of American citizens makes for more harmony than kinship between religions (which I'm not so sure is that great all the time).

And, it's not a matter of "compassion," but I have very little in common with illegals. Very little. I have very little "harmony" with illegals, since they don't belong in the country. And, if it was dumb luck that brought my grandparents here 125 years ago, then aren't I a lucky boy. The correct answer from childhood is: tough noogies!

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Foofie wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:
Flaja,

You are not only ignoring illegal people (and ironically some of the illegal people have been saying the pledge of Allegiance thousands of time since they entered the first grade and you still can't have compassion for them)....

You are also ignoring American citizens who don't feel comfortable with the pledge. These include

- Atheists who don't believe in any god.
- Jewish people who have long been made to feel like outsiders in a "Christian nation" and see this as another way to make them "assimilate".
- And Christians who take the Bible very seriously... particularly the part that says not to take oaths.

Your idea of harmony seems to be to force anyone who may be different to fall into line.

Yes... the old "harmony through bludgeoning trick" never fails.

Were you directing your thoughts to me? I brought up the Pledge of Allegiance.

Where did you see school children that are rabid atheists, to the point of not wanting to say the Pledge of Allegiance?

Where did you get the idea that American Jews are alienated from the Pledge of Allegiance? There's no mention of Jesus in the Pledge of Allegiance; it's really a very philo-Semitic "pledge," since only God is mentioned (the same one they worship). For your information, Jews in general, don't feel like outsiders in the U.S.; they only feel like outsiders when interacting with anti-Semites. There has never been state sponsored anti-Semitism in the U.S.; but there has been state sponsored anti-Semitism in many of the countries American Jews came from originally (meaning grandparents, or great grandparents, or farther back in a family). Where did you get your misinformation?

And, there has never been a state sponsored attempt to assimilate/convert them to Christianity. Your claim that Jews "see the Pledge of Allegiance as another way to make them assimilate" is totally false. They have assimilated. That's why there are politicians that are Jewish. Are you remembering an old newsreel of the Lower East Side pushcart peddlars in the early 20th century? I think many Jews would find your statement offensive, since the inference is that only by converting to Christianity can American Jews "assimilate" into American society. Totally false.

Considering you know so much about American Jews, what is your professed faith, may I ask?

Do you believe that there a state sponsored attempt to assimilate/convert children of no religion to Theisim?

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maporsche wrote:

Foofie wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
Flaja,

You are not only ignoring illegal people (and ironically some of the illegal people have been saying the pledge of Allegiance thousands of time since they entered the first grade and you still can't have compassion for them)....

You are also ignoring American citizens who don't feel comfortable with the pledge. These include

- Atheists who don't believe in any god.
- Jewish people who have long been made to feel like outsiders in a "Christian nation" and see this as another way to make them "assimilate".
- And Christians who take the Bible very seriously... particularly the part that says not to take oaths.

Your idea of harmony seems to be to force anyone who may be different to fall into line.

Yes... the old "harmony through bludgeoning trick" never fails.

Were you directing your thoughts to me? I brought up the Pledge of Allegiance.

Where did you see school children that are rabid atheists, to the point of not wanting to say the Pledge of Allegiance?

Where did you get the idea that American Jews are alienated from the Pledge of Allegiance? There's no mention of Jesus in the Pledge of Allegiance; it's really a very philo-Semitic "pledge," since only God is mentioned (the same one they worship). For your information, Jews in general, don't feel like outsiders in the U.S.; they only feel like outsiders when interacting with anti-Semites. There has never been state sponsored anti-Semitism in the U.S.; but there has been state sponsored anti-Semitism in many of the countries American Jews came from originally (meaning grandparents, or great grandparents, or farther back in a family). Where did you get your misinformation?

And, there has never been a state sponsored attempt to assimilate/convert them to Christianity. Your claim that Jews "see the Pledge of Allegiance as another way to make them assimilate" is totally false. They have assimilated. That's why there are politicians that are Jewish. Are you remembering an old newsreel of the Lower East Side pushcart peddlars in the early 20th century? I think many Jews would find your statement offensive, since the inference is that only by converting to Christianity can American Jews "assimilate" into American society. Totally false.

Considering you know so much about American Jews, what is your professed faith, may I ask?

Do you believe that there a state sponsored attempt to assimilate/convert children of no religion to Theisim?

No, I don't believe; nor do I care; why ask me; my opinion is worthless on that question.

I don't believe one's religious beliefs, or lack of them, makes for being a good American. That's all I'm concerned about. Religion, if you haven't noticed, pays off after one is dead (the healing miracle stuff is outside my realm of reality). I'm only worried about life amongst the living.

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So many questions....

1. Yes Flaja, I was addressing my thoughts on the Pledge of Allegiance to you.

2. There are American school children who choose not to participate in the Pledge for many reasons (many more than atheism). There are Christian groups who tell their followers to not say the pledge. Then there are people who don't say it for other reasons of conscience (i.e. they feel it goes against their values of civil rights).

Then there are high school kids who just don't feel that reciting a "pledge" simply because they are supposed to is a meaningful part of being American.

When I was a teacher several kids chose not to participate. One of the kids was religious and I don't think she could have said the pledge without violating her beliefs. Others I think simply chose not to.

As long as they are not disruptive this is their right (as upheld by the courts). They sat quietly during the pledge with no problems.

3. You don't know your history. Jewish Americans have always been at the forefront of the battle to keep the separation of church and state. This makes sense if you can put yourself in the shoes of a minority religion.

4. Flaja brought up illegal people first... I responded with irony.

5. Being American is about having rights. I feel that not saying the pledge of Allegiance is a way to understand what it means to be American.

Kinship doesn't mean pressuring people who are different to do what you want.

Kinship means that you respect people who don't say the pledge... and that they respect you for saying it.

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Foofie wrote:

There has never been state sponsored anti-Semitism in the U.S.;

Yes and no. Several of the original 13 states had state constitutions that prohibited Jews from serving in public office. North Carolina's constitution said that only Christians could hold public office, but then it also said that everyone had freedom of religion. A Jew was elected to the state legislature, but the legislature denied him his seat on the basis that he wasn't a Christian. The legislator countered that he was entitled to his seat on the basis of having freedom of religion. Public opinion sided with him and the state constitution was changed.

In Maryland you couldn't hold any kind of public office (even so much as a notary public) if you didn't believe in the Christian Trinity. This provision was in place until the U.S. Supreme Court struck down Maryland's Constitution in the 1960s.

The Congregational church had taxpayer sponsorship in New Hampshire until the 1940s.

During the siege of Vicksburg General U. S. Grant issued an order than banned all Jews from the Union lines. Grant didn't get along with his father and his father had Jewish business associates and they were pestering Grant for army business. President Lincoln rescinded the order immediately when he learned of it.

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Re: religious harmony

kuvasz wrote:

flaja wrote:
Does a civil service job constitute an office of public trust? Isn't this term used only for elected or appointed offices?

would you hire anyone in the public sector whom you did not trust?

What has trust to do with the issue at hand? Civil service jobs are not offices of public trust according to the U.S. Constitution. Civil servants are employees.

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maporsche wrote:

Do you believe that there a state sponsored attempt to assimilate/convert children of no religion to Theisim?

Do you think there is a state-sponsored attempt to assimilate/convert public school children into the faith of secular humanism considering that Darwinism is taught in public schools as fact?

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ebrown_p wrote:

4. Flaja brought up illegal people first... I responded with irony.

Are you off your meds or something? I did not introduce illegals into this thread; you did.

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flaja wrote:

maporsche wrote:
Do you believe that there a state sponsored attempt to assimilate/convert children of no religion to Theisim?

Do you think there is a state-sponsored attempt to assimilate/convert public school children into the faith of secular humanism considering that Darwinism is taught in public schools as fact?

There is a difference between education and religion.

A religious group that has a problem with evolution, or grammar, or algebra is going to have to deal with it. Science and literacy and math are important parts of our society.

There is a state-sponsored attempt to produce educated citizens who can compete and prosper in society and in the world economy.

The state should not be concerned at all if one "faith" thinks this favors another "faith".

Let the state worry about education, and let the courts judge the law when on group feels wronged. The courts have made clear judgements on both issues; the teaching of science, and the saying of the pledge.

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